The Underdogs - A common topic?

[Red Killey]

Er...no, that's not what I meant. I said Zamza was not viable in the front row. It's like Sierra or Luc, they are better off as back range casters. Zamza fits more in this argument because there are so many better characters to use in the front row, people that are used more for attacks then their magic.

That just doesn't make sense or even if it does, it's incredibly bad move to do so. Unlike Luc or Mazus who are pure mage, Zamza and Sierra definitely could deal physical damage and take physical damage as well. Hence, giving them the merit to be put in front row. Sure there are "better" S-Range characters to use, but it's only logical for us to pick at most 3 S-range characters (excluding the pure mages) in our party. And if we choose to bring Sierra and Zamza, then it's only logical to put them in front row and only bring one other S-range character. If you already have 3 S-range characters, then don't bring Zamza or Sierra. As simple as that.

The only characters I'd rate in back attack over her are Rina (if only for her three rune slots), and possibly Tengaar, since Nina outclasses Eilie in Fire Magic.

This seems to be your biggest flaw. You seem to think that back row are specifically to hide magicians while obviously any L-range characters would benefit sitting in back row (for not wasting front row so we could bring S-range characters) rather than being put in front row.

I'd definitely put Kinnison and Ayda above Nina as well. Ayda's high SPD could give extra hits, while Kinnison's high TECH could give more often critical attacks. If you bring those two together, they have a useful unite as well. With a simple D-Beat/Fury (if you want to use them separately) or D-Strike/Fury (if you really want to boost the unite attack), they both would be more useful than Nina. To a certain extent, Millie could benefit more to be put in back row over Nina as well.

And going by your logic above (of magesshould be put in back row), then obviously Luc and Mazus are better characters to be put in back row compared to Nina as well.

The fighter guys like Killey or Chaco can hit the front.

Based on what? So far your argument of front/back row is based on the front row being attacked more often, so it's better to put Nina in back row to hide her there. By putting Killey/Chaco in front, it would mean that those two would be more vulnarable than Nina even according to your posts. But Killey's stats defensively is not any better than Nina (with Nina's MDEF way higher than Killey's), so what is the reason to put Killey in front while Nina in the back? With Chaco, though he has similar MDEF with Nina, he has lower HP than her, making him even more vulnarable than her.

So what makes them "front row" material while Nina seem to be "back row specialist"? No logical explanation other than your own personal preference. You like to put Nina in back row, and that's about it. On the other hand, the decision to put Zamza in front is supported by logical reasons (him being S-range, his HP allowing him to survive, he could deal decent damage unlike pure mages, etc) and not just down to personal preference.

[Soul Eater]

A lot of the characters mentioned in this thread aren't underdogs at all. Characters like Killey, Rina, Hai yo, Sheena... just about anyone who's looked into character modification knows that they're the best. Characters who 'seem' tough like Pesmerga and Georg aren't underdogs either as people initially expect them to be able to win against other characters, unlike underdogs.

The real underdogs are people who you forget about or just seem terrible but are saved by a good rune affinity, decent weapon, a unite etc.

[Matt620]

That just doesn't make sense or even if it does, it's incredibly bad move to do so. Unlike Luc or Mazus who are pure mage, Zamza and Sierra definitely could deal physical damage and take physical damage as well. Hence, giving them the merit to be put in front row. Sure there are "better" S-Range characters to use, but it's only logical for us to pick at most 3 S-range characters (excluding the pure mages) in our party. And if we choose to bring Sierra and Zamza, then it's only logical to put them in front row and only bring one other S-range character. If you already have 3 S-range characters, then don't bring Zamza or Sierra. As simple as that.

Zamza/Sierra have the merit to be put in the front row, and of course, they will do more damage then Luc or Mazus, however, by no stretch of the imagination are they fighters. Their strength is average and their weapons are weaker. Compared to the sword users, of which we have an abundance, the sword users definitely have more merit of being in the front row then the back. As mages, they can still function in the back row; they just can't attack.

I'd definitely put Kinnison and Ayda above Nina as well. Ayda's high SPD could give extra hits, while Kinnison's high TECH could give more often critical attacks. If you bring those two together, they have a useful unite as well. With a simple D-Beat/Fury (if you want to use them separately) or D-Strike/Fury (if you really want to boost the unite attack), they both would be more useful than Nina. To a certain extent, Millie could benefit more to be put in back row over Nina as well

I'm going to have to call you out about Millie. Millie's only usefulness is her A in some types of magic. And there is always someone better to take for that magic then her (except Blue Gate, but there is better magic then that). Millie has awful strength, making her a terrible physical fighter. Of course, she's a L-ranged mage with great MDEF. However, Nina beats or ties Millie at everything, not once is Millie greater other then rune affinity. She ties Nina in Fire Magic (and if you're looking at that, Nina is assuredly the better fire mage with her better stats), and the only thing that could be chipped into her favor is the A in Lightning Magic. However, if you want Fire/Lightning, just go for Mazus instead. He's superior to Millie is most stats except Luck and MDEF. The only other thing is going for Blue Gate, but Nina will outdamage Millie with her Fire Magic, not to mention not hurt her party if you use a Lv4 spell.

As for Ayda/Kinnison, yeah, they have a unite, however more productive it would be to have them attack separately. However, Nina can still outdamage them physically with her unite, attacking twice is * 2 damage, while Nina's is *2.5, which stacks on to her couple of points for her book being stronger then their bows (Fury runes, since both equip one, are dropped). Sure, she's unbalanced, but in a party of six characters, how much is that going to hurt? It's not like everyone is unbalanced...This extends also to Zamza, who, even with Fire Emblems and using Fire Dragon, won't beat her in physics.

Now, she's stronger then all of them, plus has the protection of being able to attack from the back, helping her flaw of physical defense. Sure, it's a personal preference to make her attack from the back, but Nina is no shiner when it comes to durability. There are characters, S ranged, who beat her defensively. They go in the front. The only time I'd expect to see Nina in the front row is if you're loaded up with 3 L-ranged mages.

the decision to put Zamza in front is supported by logical reasons (him being S-range, his HP allowing him to survive, he could deal decent damage unlike pure mages, etc) and not just down to personal preference.

"HP allowing to survive", and "decent damage unlike pure mages" are opinions, not facts, since "decent" is a relative term. Zamza's physical damage is average, at best; he's a mage, not a fighter. The back row suits him since he's really not that great when it comes to durability, just better then most mages. Nina is the same way, but she can attack from the back row. He's tougher then Nina, but characters like Viktor or Rikimaru cream him defensively. There are, of course, worse S ranged defensive characters, but what makes them viable is their attack power (Anita/Valeria).

Small aside about Killey: he is still better defensively then her. She's got killer MDEF, but that's for spells. For the most part, spells can hit anywhere. Front or back makes little difference. There's not a huge difference between them, but it is in Killey's favor.

And going by your logic above (of magesshould be put in back row), then obviously Luc and Mazus are better characters to be put in back row compared to Nina as well.

When compared to Luc and Mazus, of course Nina is better in the front row then them. Luc especially, has AWFUL physical durability, having worse PDEF and HP then her, while Mazus has same HP, worse defense. If you stick Luc in the front row, he'll get killed really fast.

[Hxc Flavor]

A lot of the characters mentioned in this thread aren't underdogs at all. Characters like Killey, Rina, Hai yo, Sheena... just about anyone who's looked into character modification knows that they're the best. Characters who 'seem' tough like Pesmerga and Georg aren't underdogs either as people initially expect them to be able to win against other characters, unlike underdogs.

The real underdogs are people who you forget about or just seem terrible but are saved by a good rune affinity, decent weapon, a unite etc.

All I can say is: well duh.

When people are talking about Killey, Hai Yo, Sheena, Rina, etc, they aren't refering to them as underdogs. They are using them as comparisons to other characters. You should really read more carefully next time.

And I think we know who the real underdogs are since we've been talking about them for a while, and they've included everything you listed.

[Red Killey]

Zamza/Sierra have the merit to be put in the front row, and of course, they will do more damage then Luc or Mazus, however, by no stretch of the imagination are they fighters. Their strength is average and their weapons are weaker. Compared to the sword users, of which we have an abundance, the sword users definitely have more merit of being in the front row then the back. As mages, they can still function in the back row; they just can't attack.

This is why it is a bad move to do that. To limit Zamza and Sierra as mage only wasted their flexibility of being able to hold their ground in front while still being decent mage/fighter. Sierra has a locked Thunder Rune on her WPN slot, by putting her in back, you not only waste her physical attack, you waste the WPN rune slot as well. By instisting to put them in back row, you just show why you think of them to be not so useful. And as far as I'm concerned, most likely only a few people would insist to do so. But if you choose to do it anyway, of course it's up to you. I can't force you to put them in front row because you seem to think so highly of the sword users.

Millie's only usefulness is her A in some types of magic.

Yup, which means that she's excellent at 3 types of magic while Nina only has 1. And my point isn't even to say that Millie is a better character compared to Nina. I said that Millie could benefit more to be put in the back row compared to Nina, which she did due to her lower HP.

And there is always someone better to take for that magic then her.

See? This is the most awful thing about your post IMO. Whenever I try to compare X with Nina, your respond is to say that there better characters than X. Yes, I am fully aware that X is not the best character in the game to use (heck I even made it clear that I still consider Nina to be better than Zamza already in my first post about Zamza-Nina), but Nina isn't the best character to use either (and frankly speaking, not everyone use the "best" characters all the time). So unless you keep it straight between X and Nina, I'm just going to say "Well there are better characters to use than Nina as well" and that's it.

However, Nina beats or ties Millie at everything, not once is Millie greater other then rune affinity.

Which is EXACTLY why Millie would benefit more to be put in back row than Nina. Because Millie has lower HP than Nina, and we both know that being in back row minimizes the chance of getting attacked by normal monsters. Thank you for agreeing to my point.

She ties Nina in Fire Magic (and if you're looking at that, Nina is assuredly the better fire mage with her better stats)

Though unfortunately Nina's usefulness in magic is limited to Fire Magic only while Millie could be use as a Lightning or Blue Gate Mage as well.

and the only thing that could be chipped into her favor is the A in Lightning Magic. However, if you want Fire/Lightning, just go for Mazus instead. He's superior to Millie is most stats except Luck and MDEF.

Suuuuure, same goes to Nina. If you want Fire, just go with Mazus or Rina instead. Why bother bringing Nina. She's not going to deal more Fire damage than Mazus due to his superior MAG stat and equal affinity.

The only other thing is going for Blue Gate, but Nina will outdamage Millie with her Fire Magic, not to mention not hurt her party if you use a Lv4 spell.

Again, never meant to say that Millie is better than Nina. Read my post more carefully next time, alright?

As for Ayda/Kinnison, yeah, they have a unite, however more productive it would be to have them attack separately.

Well it depends on the need.

However, Nina can still outdamage them physically with her unite, attacking twice is * 2 damage, while Nina's is *2.5, which stacks on to her couple of points for her book being stronger then their bows (Fury runes, since both equip one, are dropped).

You really are being unfair whenever you compare characters. But I'll play along first, and then do more proper and more fair comparison.

Your comparison: Nina-Flik's unite vs Kinnison/Ayda attacking separately (omitting Fury Rune since you said that they all equipped one).
1. Nina-Flik's unite: deals x2.5 damage to 1 enemy, Nina unbalanced.
2. Ayda/Kinnison attacking separately: deals x2 damage, no one unbalanced.

At first glance, it seems that Nina-Flik's unite would deal more damage. But keep in mind that they are static damage (meaning always x2.5 damage). While on the other hand, Kinnison and Ayda's physical attack could either get: 1) extra hits (due to Ayda's high SPD) or 2) critical attack (due to Kinnison's high or 3) kill one monster and direct the other attack to other monster instead of overkilling it. So while Nina-Flik's unite would deal more damage at first, Kinnison/Ayda attacking separately could prove to be more useful (could end up dealing more damage, could kill more monsters, and definitely no one get unbalanced).

Now onto the more fair comparison, which is basically Nina-Flik's unite vs Ayda-Kinnison unite (again, omitting the Fury Rune).
1. Nina-Flik's unite: deals x2.5 damage to 1 enemy, Nina unbalanced.
2. Ayda-Kinnison's unite: deals x0.5x1.5 (if using D-Strike) = x0.75 damage to all, no one unbalanced.

At first glance, it looks like Flik-Nina's unite to be better as well. But if we face 6 random monsters, Ayda-Kinnison's unite would deal 6x0.75= x4.5 damage in total. Significantly (almost twice) more than Flik-Nina's unite and no one would get unbalanced. It is proven that Ayda-Kinnison are better to be brought in the party than Nina.

Sure, she's unbalanced, but in a party of six characters, how much is that going to hurt? It's not like everyone is unbalanced...This extends also to Zamza, who, even with Fire Emblems and using Fire Dragon, won't beat her in physics.

This is also confusing statement. You seem to consider Nina being unbalanced as a small thing, implying that it doesn't really matter whether we fight with 5 characters (plus Nina being unbalanced) or with 6 (Nina being okay). So if that's how you think, then why would you seem so bothered with the idea of putting Zamza in front replacing one of those sword users? Zamza in front only lower the damage dealing a bit less compared to if you bring let's say Miklotov. It's a worse scenario to have Nina unbalanced and being useless, but yet to seem to be more troubled with the idea of putting Zamza in front. I just don't get it.

Now, she's stronger then all of them,

Not really. I just proven you wrong on Kinnison-Ayda's case, I never said that Millie is stronger than Nina in the first place, and I've already agreed that Nina is better than Zamza anyway.

"HP allowing to survive", and "decent damage unlike pure mages" are opinions, not facts, since "decent" is a relative term.

Well they are facts actually. Zamza's higher HP than pure mages showed that he indeed has HP allowing him to survive. Supporting idea: Your insistance on hiding pure mages in back row (if you consider mages to have enough HP to survive in front, why put them in back?) Zamza has higher HP than Luc/Mazus/Viki etc. Therefore it is a fact that he has HP allowing him to survive in front. Heck, you don't even mind putting Nina in front if you bring 3 L-range mages, and Zamza has higher HP than her.

"Decent damage unlike pure mages" is also a fact because Zamza has higher ATK stat than pure mages (who are being considered as weak) but lower ATK stat than pure fighters (who are considered as strong). So it's "decent".

Zamza's physical damage is average, at best; he's a mage, not a fighter.

Well Zamza's MAG stat is average as well, realize that? But hey, everyone except the pure fighters like Georg etc are mages to you anyway, right?

The back row suits him since he's really not that great when it comes to durability, just better then most mages.

*sigh* here we go again. High HP allows him to survive getting hit with physical attack ... how many times do I have to repeat this anyway? And yes I am aware that there are swords user who are better characters than Zamza, but not everyone wants to use those swords user, you know.

Nina is the same way, but she can attack from the back row.

That's why I told you to put Zamza in front, for God's sake. Grah, this is frustrating. You just don't seem to know how to use Zamza properly by insisting on putting him in back row.

He's tougher then Nina, but characters like Viktor or Rikimaru cream him defensively. There are, of course, worse S ranged defensive characters, but what makes them viable is their attack power (Anita/Valeria).

One simple question. Has it ever occured to you that some people would use Zamza and have less than 3 S-range characters in the party (hence, making it a good idea to put him in front)? Judging from your insistance on worshipping sword users, apparently not.

Small aside about Killey: he is still better defensively then her.

Same stat growth. If you got Killey with better DEF stat, then you got lucky during the PROT stat growth while leveling up or you equip him with better equipments than her.

And just in case it's the other way around for others (meaning Nina got slightly better DEF than Killey), then you would agree that Killey should be at the back while Nina in front. Hence, ALL M/L-range characters with similar DEF stat as Nina has as much right as her to be in the back, while anyone with lower DEF definitely got the back row ahead of her for sure. So definitely not only Rina and Tengaar.

In the end, I'm getting too tired now. It's obvious that you're not going to bother to use Zamza in the end or even moving him to the front row no matter what. I can't change that preference of yours. But I just want to say that you're not being fair at all when comparing Zamza and Nina by insisting that Zamza should be put in the back row. And you're being unfair as well whenever you use the "there are better characters to use than X". Not everyone brings Sheena-HaiYo-Riou-Killey-Luc-Rina in their party, you know. Cheers.

[Matt620]

[spoiler]This is why it is a bad move to do that. To limit Zamza and Sierra as mage only wasted their flexibility of being able to hold their ground in front while still being decent mage/fighter. Sierra has a locked Thunder Rune on her WPN slot, by putting her in back, you not only waste her physical attack, you waste the WPN rune slot as well. By instisting to put them in back row, you just show why you think of them to be not so useful. And as far as I'm concerned, most likely only a few people would insist to do so. But if you choose to do it anyway, of course it's up to you. I can't force you to put them in front row because you seem to think so highly of the sword users.[/spoiler]

You've missed the point entirely. The question becomes: Why put them in the front to attack if they really don't do that much damage. The purpose of Zamza, Nina, and Sierra, more or less, is to cast spells, not physically attack. That isn't sword-user worship, it's just picking one group of characters, a group of characters we have a lot of, and stating that they are better in the front since they are stronger and better defensively.

Though unfortunately Nina's usefulness in magic is limited to Fire Magic only while Millie could be use as a Lightning or Blue Gate Mage as well.

When would you need Blue Gate magic other then to do the Levelling up trick? Also, Nina makes a better Resurrection user then Millie (Nina's B to her D)

Suuuuure, same goes to Nina. If you want Fire, just go with Mazus or Rina instead. Why bother bringing Nina. She's not going to deal more Fire damage than Mazus due to his superior MAG stat and equal affinity.

Why did you bother saying Rina? Nina will beat her in 3 types of attack magic (Fire, Earth, and Resurrection). Rina's only strength is Water, which can't attack.

Nina's advantages over Mazus are that she is stronger and tougher. You make a choice depending on the rest of your party and your playing style.

You really are being unfair whenever you compare characters. But I'll play along first, and then do more proper and more fair comparison

At first glance, it seems that Nina-Flik's unite would deal more damage. But keep in mind that they are static damage (meaning always x2.5 damage). While on the other hand, Kinnison and Ayda's physical attack could either get: 1) extra hits (due to Ayda's high SPD) or 2) critical attack (due to Kinnison's high or 3) kill one monster and direct the other attack to other monster instead of overkilling it. So while Nina-Flik's unite would deal more damage at first, Kinnison/Ayda attacking separately could prove to be more useful (could end up dealing more damage, could kill more monsters, and definitely no one get unbalanced).

What distainful arrogance...oh well. You are basically counting on random data to make their effects better?

This is also confusing statement. You seem to consider Nina being unbalanced as a small thing, implying that it doesn't really matter whether we fight with 5 characters (plus Nina being unbalanced) or with 6 (Nina being okay). So if that's how you think, then why would you seem so bothered with the idea of putting Zamza in front replacing one of those sword users? Zamza in front only lower the damage dealing a bit less compared to if you bring let's say Miklotov. It's a worse scenario to have Nina unbalanced and being useless, but yet to seem to be more troubled with the idea of putting Zamza in front. I just don't get it

No, RK, not completely useless. When someone is unbalanced, they can't attack or cast spells. Items are still allowed, and items range from pretty much everything. Not that I'm saying it'll happen all the time, but if someone had cast a healing spell, then unbalance removes itself

Well they are facts actually. Zamza's higher HP than pure mages showed that he indeed has HP allowing him to survive

That's skewed logic. Zamza has higher HP then pure mages, yes. But that sentence doesn't mean he has HP allowing him to survive. It ONLY means that, point for point, he'll outlast a pure mage. Hell, if you put him in the front row, he's not going to outlast a pure mage...

Therefore it is a fact that he has HP allowing him to survive in front. Heck, you don't even mind putting Nina in front if you bring 3 L-range mages, and Zamza has higher HP than her.

You've got it wrong. Zamza's higher HP only means that he's going to last longer then a pure mage. You're incorrectly concluding that, because he's tougher then pure mages, his survivablility is not in question.

Aside, the only reason I said to put Nina in the front row is when you have 3 L-ranged characters. The reason is because she ties or beats all of them in physical durability.

Well Zamza's MAG stat is average as well, realize that? But hey, everyone except the pure fighters like Georg etc are mages to you anyway, right?

Zamza's magic stat is not as impressive as the pure mages. But Zamza has other selling points: his durability (which you are praising). And stop with the personal slights, RK. No, I don't consider "everyone except the pure fighters", like Hix or Freed, mages. Mages are characters that's primary function is to cast spells. In cases like Hix, Freed, Hai Yo, that's not the case.

*sigh* here we go again. High HP allows him to survive getting hit with physical attack ... how many times do I have to repeat this anyway? And yes I am aware that there are swords user who are better characters than Zamza, but not everyone wants to use those swords user, you know.

Basing an argument on a personal opinion?

That's why I told you to put Zamza in front, for God's sake. Grah, this is frustrating. You just don't seem to know how to use Zamza properly by insisting on putting him in back row.

If you post the arguments separately and not together, you lose something. Nina is in the relative same boat as Zamza: mage-ish characters who are better at fighting and are more physically durable then pure mages at the sacrifice of not having extreme magic stats like they do. Although better then pure mages, neither of the two are great at physical durability. Nina can cover this: Nina can stay in the back and still attack. Zamza can't. That is what the statement meant, RK. That's IT!

One simple question. Has it ever occured to you that some people would use Zamza and have less than 3 S-range characters in the party (hence, making it a good idea to put him in front)? Judging from your insistance on worshipping sword users, apparently not.

How many times must it be said: Zamza is not so great in the front because he's not extremely durable like fighters who would normally go there. Yes, that thought had occured to me. I could make a party of 5 L-ranged characters if I wanted. The practicality of it is different.

And just in case it's the other way around for others (meaning Nina got slightly better DEF than Killey), then you would agree that Killey should be at the back while Nina in front.Hence, ALL M/L-range characters with similar DEF stat as Nina has as much right as her to be in the back, while anyone with lower DEF definitely got the back row ahead of her for sure. So definitely not only Rina and Tengaar

Yes, the better physically defensively should be in the front. Yes, in a hypthetical situation when Nina and Zamza are together in the party together, Zamza would (because of HP since their defense has the same growth) go in the front. The practicality of having Zamza in the front, even though he is more suitable for it then Nina, is what I'm calling into question. Yes, you're right, whichever have the lower defense should be placed in the back. If you look earlier, you'll notice that I didn't say Rina and Tengaar were more suitable for the back; I said Rina and Tengaar were better characters.

It's obvious that you're not going to bother to use Zamza in the end or even moving him to the front row no matter what. But I just want to say that you're not being fair at all when comparing Zamza and Nina by insisting that Zamza should be put in the back row

I don't want to make a personal stab, but that's a completely uneducated statement. You don't even know who I am or how I play the game: it's foolish to think you can predict my movements. I never insisted that Zamza be placed in the back: I said Zamza wasn't all that good in the front. Two different things.

[Red Killey]

Ah yeah, you're right. My mistake. I apologize.

[Hxc Flavor]

i think you guys need a better hobby then quoting every sentence seperately and explaing why you are right and the other person isn't.

[Blitzkrieg]

I agree on the 100% use of the character part. Putting Zamza in the front allows him to attack if needed, and use magic. Plus his high HP, and his decent magic defense and phsyical defense allows him to take damage well. Plus you can beef him up with some good equipment. I like that fact that I can put better magicians in the back, because even if most magicians are s ranged, their physical defense and HP are horrid. Sierra I still put in the front row though, just give her a Dream Robe. I could also put people like Bob, Killey or Kahn in the backrow instead of wasting a spot for Zamza.

[Hxc Flavor]

I'm on my new playthrough, I think this is going to be my underdog party:

Gengen - Riou - Shiro
Shilo - Gabocha - Kinnison

Gengen:: with a Fury Rune and can unite with Shiro and Gabocha.
Riou:: Attacker/Healer - Double Beat and Fury
Shiro:: Double Strike and Double Beat if he has another slot open
Shilo:: Killer rune, will get many criticals.
Kinnison:: Another Fury Rune if I can get one and Earth for support. Can unite with Shiro

Equipment will basically be high defense and stat increasing to get as much power as possible. None of these characters have more than 2 rune slots open so Rune power will be greatly minimized. I will have to have more defense and raw power than anything to keep my party alive in those tough battles. What do you guys think?

[Ced The Lad]

i think you guys need a better hobby then quoting every sentence seperately and explaing why you are right and the other person isn't.

Ah but do you see the civility of it all? That's what the site is encouraging. Reasonable debate without attacking the poster (too badly) is good for the community because it's a good type of discussion. Honestly, we need more of these, so nice work to Red Killey and Matt.

[Red Killey]

Actually I've written a long reply yet again to counter, but I couldn't be bothered with it because it might get too troublesome. I just think that it's better to stop right there because it's fairly obvious that Matt and I have different way of using Zamza (he used Zamza as mages, while I use him as half mage half fighter) that lead to different usefulness of him in our games. Trying to compare/discuss a character when we have different basic principal is a bit impossible.

So yeah, while I don't mind discussing/debating a different character's usefulness, unless it's done in an objective and same way, it's a bit hard to be done. In the end, now hush hush haha, go back on topic people. =D

Next character to be discussed, how about Vincent and Simone? And when discussing, please refrain from saying that they are bad because there are better characters to use. We are all aware that this topic is about the underdogs, which means that obviously they aren't the best characters to use. So when discussing them, try to show their positive and negative points without bringing up the fact that there are better characters.

[Matt620]

Vicent/Simone...

Well, other then killer MDEF, there really isn't that much going for these guys. Both have only one rune slot free, both suck with magic (Vicent can misfire with Lightning, Simone with Wind), and their strength is on the level of Nina, making them not really that good as physical fighting either.

Together, they have some merit, their unite is an effective way to hit everyone. I don't remember the specific (but I think it was .5 to an enemy). However, with their lower strength, it's not going to be that effective, even with augmenting runes since they both can only equip one.

A character I believe to be strongly underrated is Hix, and I think he's better then both of them. He at least can make himself stronger with that permanent Exertion Rune (that you don't have to hunt for). I also think Luck factors into critical hits (at least, it did in the other two games I believe. Suiko I Hix with a Killer Rune was criticalling Neclord every other turn. No lie.)

[Hxc Flavor]

You are right, Luck and Tech both determine the Critical rate.

[Soul Eater]

All I can say is: well duh.

When people are talking about Killey, Hai Yo, Sheena, Rina, etc, they aren't refering to them as underdogs. They are using them as comparisons to other characters. You should really read more carefully next time.

And I think we know who the real underdogs are since we've been talking about them for a while, and they've included everything you listed.

No. Some people were actually suggesting them as underdogs. Maybe you should read more carefully before you try to appear so superior, where you've clearly failed.