Violence Rune.. technicalities??
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KFCrispy
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Violence Rune.. technicalities??
I went back to mess around with this game and i'm finding Violence Rune is only doing the 1.5x dmg that normal berserk does when i am use a Banshee Rune from a low HP character to trigger the Violence status on the character with Violence Rune. i find this very very strange and unfortunate, because i was trying a strategy for defeating the Beast Rune in 1 round. right now, with normal leveling to lvl 50-60ish, it doesn't seem feasible.
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Nemesis
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I killed the beast in 2 rounds. I think that is the best! sorry to say KFC. =) People doens't believe it but yea, I'm okay with it. I use Tir, viktor, flik, riou, clive (all double beat and they use normal attack. MY Tir does 2000 dmg if it is critical and 800 in normal) and Luc, who uses his final Wind Magic, the one that heals and attacks with a disc.
Last edited by Nemesis on Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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KFCrispy
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one major problem i had was that Killey and Sheena with their super Double Beat Double-Strike Fury, Rage/Thunder on wpn, STR+ equipment and all could not take down the Rune in their combined 4 attacks. the Rune has extremely high PDF and MDF or has the "halves all or most damage" property like Luca does. the heads probably don't have the super-high defenses but they have higher HP...
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Aldo
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I think if I try this again...I'm going to try to use Wakaba and LCChan's unite to try to take out the rune in 1 unite, and then see if I can have slower magicians go after to take out everything else [the only problem being that Luc is one of the fastest characters =( ] The only thing is, if Killey and Sheena couldn't take them out with that setup, the unite, though also incredibly strong, probably wont be able to either.KFCrispy wrote:one major problem i had was that Killey and Sheena with their super Double Beat Double-Strike Fury, Rage/Thunder on wpn, STR+ equipment and all could not take down the Rune in their combined 4 attacks. the Rune has extremely high PDF and MDF or has the "halves all or most damage" property like Luca does. the heads probably don't have the super-high defenses but they have higher HP...
One thing that comes in to mind, though requiring a lot of luck, would be Valeria getting a critical hit on the Falcon rune. I know that damage can get pretty high...
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KFCrispy
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rnoron
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Ok, I just tested this out, and it seems that Violence Rune actually gives regular Berserk status with the usual x1.5 multiplier, not the x5 version that is listed on the site. The huge damage we see is actually a separate x3 multiplier coming into effect the turn after the Violence Rune is triggered, which wears off again immediately after that round. This 3x multiplier is independant of the Berserk status, and while Berserk can linger on for a few turns, depending on the character that has it, the x3 multiplier invariably lasts for only 1 turn.
When both the x3 multiplier and Berserk status are in effect, the character gets a total of 4.5x increase in damage, which is not the 5x we thought of previously. Also, the x3 multiplier is applied before the defense penalty, resulting in slightly more than 4.5x damage, which may be mistaken by some as a 5x damage increase.
That's all the technicalities for the Violence Rune, I believe.
The bad news is the 1 turn strategy isn't workable with the Violence Rune. I had a strat to one-turn it using a party of 3, but too bad..
When both the x3 multiplier and Berserk status are in effect, the character gets a total of 4.5x increase in damage, which is not the 5x we thought of previously. Also, the x3 multiplier is applied before the defense penalty, resulting in slightly more than 4.5x damage, which may be mistaken by some as a 5x damage increase.
That's all the technicalities for the Violence Rune, I believe.
The bad news is the 1 turn strategy isn't workable with the Violence Rune. I had a strat to one-turn it using a party of 3, but too bad..
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rnoron
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A substantial difference can be noted, depending on the enemy DEF stat.
Take for example, an enemy with 60 DEF. Since both Berserk and the 3x multiplier are applied before enemy def, effectively the increase in damage can be calculated by 4.5*(enemy DEF). The difference is 270 damage, which is more than half of what the average fighter usually does. If you factor in other multipliers like Double-Strike and weapon runes, the difference would be even more noticeable.
The reason for the inconsistent results in those tests is this: whoever tested it had been using different enemies with varying levels of defense.
Take for example, an enemy with 60 DEF. Since both Berserk and the 3x multiplier are applied before enemy def, effectively the increase in damage can be calculated by 4.5*(enemy DEF). The difference is 270 damage, which is more than half of what the average fighter usually does. If you factor in other multipliers like Double-Strike and weapon runes, the difference would be even more noticeable.
The reason for the inconsistent results in those tests is this: whoever tested it had been using different enemies with varying levels of defense.
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KFCrispy
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yes it's true the enemy PDF has a greater effect when damage multipliers kick in, since the multipliers increase the damage dealt after enemy PDF reduces the attack value. but i'm pretty sure we took that stuff into account.
it is likely the random variance that caused the differences in numbers, since that unaccounted-for-amount's effect is greatly increased. however, i highly doubt it could produce differences that create a 4.5x and 5.0x difference.
would you mind sharing your numbers? i assume you've done multiple tests on multiple enemies.
it is likely the random variance that caused the differences in numbers, since that unaccounted-for-amount's effect is greatly increased. however, i highly doubt it could produce differences that create a 4.5x and 5.0x difference.
would you mind sharing your numbers? i assume you've done multiple tests on multiple enemies.
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rnoron
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The setup:
Sheena Lv99
no helmet, no armor, 2xFire Emblems, ATK rating=355
Double-Beat, Double-Strike, Violence Rune, Fire-Lizard in weapon
Test subject: squirrels around North Window area
The numbers:
Critical hit with Berserk, without second Violence status=3444
Normal hit with full Violence Rune effects=3555
Normal hit without Berserk/Violence multiplier=747
There is probably no other way to explain the difference between #1 and #2. Damage variance in this game affects damage in the single digits, and if it were due to a different multiplier, it would have to be somewhere around 4.6x, which doesn't tally with the earlier claims of 4.8x or 5.0x.
The results were conclusive enough for me, and I didn't bother doing any other tests. It would be nice though, if someone else could prove me right/wrong
Sheena Lv99
no helmet, no armor, 2xFire Emblems, ATK rating=355
Double-Beat, Double-Strike, Violence Rune, Fire-Lizard in weapon
Test subject: squirrels around North Window area
The numbers:
Critical hit with Berserk, without second Violence status=3444
Normal hit with full Violence Rune effects=3555
Normal hit without Berserk/Violence multiplier=747
There is probably no other way to explain the difference between #1 and #2. Damage variance in this game affects damage in the single digits, and if it were due to a different multiplier, it would have to be somewhere around 4.6x, which doesn't tally with the earlier claims of 4.8x or 5.0x.
The results were conclusive enough for me, and I didn't bother doing any other tests. It would be nice though, if someone else could prove me right/wrong
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rnoron
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Just to add, there is no such thing as a "5x Violence berserk" or "2x berserk caused when protected characters die" etc. There is only one version of berserk, which is the 1.5x version we know of. In these two cases, the extra damage is caused by a separate multiplier, which is likely to be x3 in the case of Violence, and x1.25 when a protected character gets KO'd.
Of course, all this jargon is pretty useless given how old/easy this game is.
Of course, all this jargon is pretty useless given how old/easy this game is.
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KFCrispy
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rnoron, it makes more sense to test with far less damage multiplying runes. the multiplier i am getting straight from your numbers is over 4.75, which has nothing to do with 1.5 (berserk) multiplied by 3.
i disagree with your idea that there is only 1 berserk status and that there are just extra multipliers for violence and ally-KOed statuses. when a character's Violence Rune activates, the red glowing status can completely disappear after violence de-activates. the same happens with the ally-KOed status; the character will deal 2x damage until the red glow ends after a few turns.
Fury Rune gives a permanent berserk but if Violence is also used and kicks in, when the Violence status ends, the character is left completely without any red glow whatsoever (no more berserk). this means the original berserk status was overwritten. Violence did not just ADD some status, it OVERWROTE the initial berserk.
edit: bad math
need to re-evaluate or go back and do some testing
i disagree with your idea that there is only 1 berserk status and that there are just extra multipliers for violence and ally-KOed statuses. when a character's Violence Rune activates, the red glowing status can completely disappear after violence de-activates. the same happens with the ally-KOed status; the character will deal 2x damage until the red glow ends after a few turns.
Fury Rune gives a permanent berserk but if Violence is also used and kicks in, when the Violence status ends, the character is left completely without any red glow whatsoever (no more berserk). this means the original berserk status was overwritten. Violence did not just ADD some status, it OVERWROTE the initial berserk.
edit: bad math
need to re-evaluate or go back and do some testing
Last edited by KFCrispy on Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rnoron
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My bad, I meant to use the number dealt with Violence in effect. 3555/474~4.75 alright.
To see what I mean by separate multipliers, try activating Violence on a character that loses it after one round. Rina for example. She loses berserk after one turn, meaning you're left with ONLY the x3 violence multiplier the turn after berserk is triggered. Try a normal hit then, and you'll get the 3x damage I'm talking about.
The Fury Rune is supposed to grant a permanent berserk status, and losing it with Fury equipped definitely involves a bug. For one, this makes it a rather unreliable way to test for mechanics. Secondly, you seem to be linking the "red glowing status" to violence berserk, discounting the fact that berserk can linger on for a few turns while the "5x" damage is lost after the second. So this is what happens, according to what you seem to be saying:
1. maxHP/2 damage taken, Violence berserk triggered, overwrites initial berserk
2. Violence 5x damage lost, violence berserk overwritten by normal 1.5x berserk
3. normal berserk disappears, which according to you is due to it still being violence berserk
Oh yes I took a look at that thread, and it definitely makes sense.
1000 damage (kindness)
1000 x 2 (falcon hit) = 2000
2000 x 2 (sleep) = 4000
4000 x 4.5 (my version of Violence) = ?????
Just maybe, it proves me right?
No offense man, but recalling figures from memory ain't the best way to prove anything.
To see what I mean by separate multipliers, try activating Violence on a character that loses it after one round. Rina for example. She loses berserk after one turn, meaning you're left with ONLY the x3 violence multiplier the turn after berserk is triggered. Try a normal hit then, and you'll get the 3x damage I'm talking about.
The Fury Rune is supposed to grant a permanent berserk status, and losing it with Fury equipped definitely involves a bug. For one, this makes it a rather unreliable way to test for mechanics. Secondly, you seem to be linking the "red glowing status" to violence berserk, discounting the fact that berserk can linger on for a few turns while the "5x" damage is lost after the second. So this is what happens, according to what you seem to be saying:
1. maxHP/2 damage taken, Violence berserk triggered, overwrites initial berserk
2. Violence 5x damage lost, violence berserk overwritten by normal 1.5x berserk
3. normal berserk disappears, which according to you is due to it still being violence berserk
Oh yes I took a look at that thread, and it definitely makes sense.
1000 damage (kindness)
1000 x 2 (falcon hit) = 2000
2000 x 2 (sleep) = 4000
4000 x 4.5 (my version of Violence) = ?????
Just maybe, it proves me right?
No offense man, but recalling figures from memory ain't the best way to prove anything.
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KFCrispy
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i realized i was doing some bad math earlier, sorry. it's definitely something i probably have to look at again.
there could be other things, like berserk multiplying attack only. this was actually what Kornholio concluded from his tests.
so if berserk multiplies your ATK only, it would make more sense if it's 4.5x and was able to end up with 4.75x--it would have not "increased" enemy defense.
i would like to take re-evaluate or reconfirm at few things..
-Double-Strike vs berserk (normal). Dbl-Strike affects damage both ways. does berserk always give more damage than Dbl-Strike? if so, then berserk is really increasing ATK, not Damage, in this game.
-also, the same thing for Criticals--- do they affect damage or attack?
-enemy defense. this can be estimated or known to help us with figuring out what goes where in the damage calculations.
-re-record damage numbers, this time without tons of multipliers like Double-Strike and Exertion to keep it simple.
without thinking about where each part belongs in the damage equation, your Sheena numbers should have been pretty much the same-- regular berserk on a Critical Hit compared to Violence no critical (3444 vs 3555. somewhat significant difference?). also, because of random variance, these tests need to be done a few times to confirm they are reliable. you only provided 1 number for each scenario... although i do think this game is not THAT random with its numbers.
there could be other things, like berserk multiplying attack only. this was actually what Kornholio concluded from his tests.
so if berserk multiplies your ATK only, it would make more sense if it's 4.5x and was able to end up with 4.75x--it would have not "increased" enemy defense.
i would like to take re-evaluate or reconfirm at few things..
-Double-Strike vs berserk (normal). Dbl-Strike affects damage both ways. does berserk always give more damage than Dbl-Strike? if so, then berserk is really increasing ATK, not Damage, in this game.
-also, the same thing for Criticals--- do they affect damage or attack?
-enemy defense. this can be estimated or known to help us with figuring out what goes where in the damage calculations.
-re-record damage numbers, this time without tons of multipliers like Double-Strike and Exertion to keep it simple.
without thinking about where each part belongs in the damage equation, your Sheena numbers should have been pretty much the same-- regular berserk on a Critical Hit compared to Violence no critical (3444 vs 3555. somewhat significant difference?). also, because of random variance, these tests need to be done a few times to confirm they are reliable. you only provided 1 number for each scenario... although i do think this game is not THAT random with its numbers.