Use Sun Rune to stop Godwin ~fomerly:Plot Holes (spoilers)

dfvzdfxf · Post by **dfvzdfxf** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:08 pm

That Sialeeds thing was a mess. The game didn't really explain much. Either she had temporary insanity or else Dolph hypnotized her.

Also, when Arshtat tries to destroy Stormfist after the Sacred Games why does Ferid try to stop her? It seems that Ferid is ultimately responsible for plunging the nation into civil war and all the innocent people dying. But nowhere is it hinted that Ferid is a Godwin pawn. If Arshtat destroys the Godwins right after the sacred games then there is no civil war.

The guide says there's 5 endings but I only saw 3. The Lym ending, the George ending and the George ending with less than 108 stars. Did anyone see the other two endings?

Specified title-op

Post by **Oppenheimer** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 1:13 pm

There's already a topic on the endings:
http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=6082

and there's already a topic on Sialeeds:
http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=6209

please don't post about those here.

About Arstat not killing thousands of innocent people. Well, it's called being a "good guy". Ferid didn't know that a civil war would develop. He couldn't very well let Arstat wipe out an entire village, which included the entire royal family who was in it at that moment, just because the Godwins rigged the marriage cerimony.

dfvzdfxf · Post by **dfvzdfxf** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:12 pm

Oppenheimer wrote: About Arstat not killing thousands of innocent people. Well, it's called being a "good guy". Ferid didn't know that a civil war would develop. He couldn't very well let Arstat wipe out an entire village, which included the entire royal family who was in it at that moment, just because the Godwins rigged the marriage cerimony.

Thanks for the two links.

However, the part about Ferid still doesn't make sense. As Commander of the Queen's Knights, Ferid would probably have executed Rovere and his kids, supported or at least approved the damming up of Lordlake by the Godwins, turned a blind eye to Stormfist "genocide" policies and otherwise supported Arshtat on her continuing vengeance on Lordlake. However, even realizing that the greatest threat came from Godwins, the King and Queen take a backseat approach. Even when they come under attack right after the engagement ceremony they are content to just sit and defend instead of taking out Stormfist or even the Godwin fleet with the Sun Rune. Make no mistake, Arshtat and Ferid both have a lot of blood on their hands so it just doesn't make sense that they gave up without a fight.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:37 pm

The fear of what might come if they decided to openly antagonize either one of the factions. They can defend themselves when the time comes, but they wouldn't be able to take the offensive (using the Sun Rune, as you said) without future problems. Godwin also has Nether Gate on their side, so it doesn't seem like the royal family could do something that easily. If the Sun Rune were to be used again after the Lordlake uprising, people might think she's too quick to use its powers instead of being diplomatic. There's a million little reasons why they did what they did, and why they could've done something else.

It's not as simple as "Godwin doesn't like us. Kill Godwin. Problem solved."

Felenan Prince · Post by **Felenan Prince** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:00 pm

actual just to point out Ferid and Arshtat didn't know nether gate was on the godwin side. As far as theyknew nether gate was disbanded. They only learn of the reform nether gate from the events of the sacred games

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:34 pm

But they did know these things when they had the opportunity to use the Sun Rune offensively, which is what we're currently discussing.

Rezard · Post by **Rezard** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:55 pm

I donâ€™t think the problem is Arshat not using the sun rune at Stormfist, but not declaring void the Sacred Games. There were lots of proofs that the games were set up.

While you couldnâ€™t order the Godwin execution, Iâ€™m sure it was possible to just declare the games void.

The proofs are:

- BelcootÂ´s weird fighting in the final match
- the princeâ€™s testimony
- MarinaÂ´s confession (if I was the prince, she would confess, donâ€™t even doubt)
- the doctorÂ´s testimony
- People on the streets saw Belcoot being attacked by nobles, meaning some people clearly wanted him out

After all, you are the royal family, if you could do much more than common people if you say the final match is void, it is void. Godwin wouldnâ€™t attack you yet, he needs to be FalenaÂ´s legitimate ruler.

I really hate Belcoot for being such coward at this part of the game and Marina too, for being a total bitch. I canâ€™t believe she walks free after what she did.

dfvzdfxf · Post by **dfvzdfxf** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:18 pm

Very interesting. It almost seems like Arshtat/Ferid are the Weimar Republic, turning a blind eye to everything you mentioned plus other things like genocide (i.e. the dwarf at the gate the prince notices, the situation with the beavers, etc.) while the Gizel/Marscal doctrine is sort of like Hitler -- Falena for the Falenans.

Maybe Suikoden was trying to show the fallacies of inaction. Based on all the proof that you point out it's almost unbelievable that Ferid/Arshtat did not take any action. Specially when half the country wanted them to use the Sun Rune and the other half wanted them to put down the Godwins (even though that was partially Barows instigated). Of course, at the end of the day we find out that Barows started the whole thing by stealing the Dawn Rune. I wonder if Luc in III knows of all these events when he decides to destroy the true runes?

Rezard wrote:I donâ€™t think the problem is Arshat not using the sun rune at Stormfist, but not declaring void the Sacred Games. There were lots of proofs that the games were set up.

While you couldnâ€™t order the Godwin execution, Iâ€™m sure it was possible to just declare the games void.

The proofs are:

- BelcootÂ´s weird fighting in the final match
- the princeâ€™s testimony
- MarinaÂ´s confession (if I was the prince, she would confess, donâ€™t even doubt)
- the doctorÂ´s testimony
- People on the streets saw Belcoot being attacked by nobles, meaning some people clearly wanted him out

After all, you are the royal family, if you could do much more than common people if you say the final match is void, it is void. Godwin wouldnâ€™t attack you yet, he needs to be FalenaÂ´s legitimate ruler.

I really hate Belcoot for being such coward at this part of the game and Marina too, for being a total bitch. I canâ€™t believe she walks free after what she did.

Post by **Oppenheimer** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:53 am

Rezard wrote:I donâ€™t think the problem is Arshat not using the sun rune at Stormfist, but not declaring void the Sacred Games. There were lots of proofs that the games were set up.

Although that's true the queen really doesn't have the power to do that. It would still cause a civil war. Going against Godwin would cause all his supporters to rise up against the crown. Even if the crown had "proof" it would be downplayed by Godwin and the queen would be seen as a tyrant. This would only be a short term solution to a much larger problem of the senate overpowering the throne.

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:17 am

Rezard wrote: The proofs are:

- BelcootÂ´s weird fighting in the final match
- the princeâ€™s testimony
- MarinaÂ´s confession (if I was the prince, she would confess, donâ€™t even doubt)
- the doctorÂ´s testimony
- People on the streets saw Belcoot being attacked by nobles, meaning some people clearly wanted him out

Marina doesn't want people to know what she did. She wouldn't confess. Belcoot said he was "exhausted" or something, so his odd fighting in the final match wouldn't matter either. The Prince wouldn't do anything either, since he respected Marina's wishes to let things die out. Murad probably wouldn't want to betray Marina's wishes either, considering he was taught all about "humanitarian principles". Most of the people on the streets (at least in the area where Belcoot was attacked), are supporters of Godwin, hence why they live in Stormfist, and probably wouldn't say anything.

Rezard · Post by **Rezard** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:53 pm

Although that's true the queen really doesn't have the power to do that. It would still cause a civil war. Going against Godwin would cause all his supporters to rise up against the crown. Even if the crown had "proof" it would be downplayed by Godwin and the queen would be seen as a tyrant. This would only be a short term solution to a much larger problem of the senate overpowering the throne.

You mean that a simple request to redo the final match would mean Godwinâ€™s supporters going against the throne? I really donâ€™t think so, since you are not accusing Godwin of doing anything, you are just saying someone set up the matches. This decision would be only indirectly bad to then.

What excuse would they use to attack the royal family?

Surely this wouldnâ€™t solve the problem of the Senate overpowering the throne, yet itâ€™s much better than doing nothing.

Marina doesn't want people to know what she did. She wouldn't confess. Belcoot said he was "exhausted" or something, so his odd fighting in the final match wouldn't matter either. The Prince wouldn't do anything either, since he respected Marina's wishes to let things die out. Murad probably wouldn't want to betray Marina's wishes either, considering he was taught all about "humanitarian principles". Most of the people on the streets (at least in the area where Belcoot was attacked), are supporters of Godwin, hence why they live in Stormfist, and probably wouldn't say anything.

Well, first you explain to then that if they donâ€™t help out, a war is going to break out, lots of people will die, etc... You could even offer amnesty if she helped.

If they insist in being selfish and cowards, then you can threaten then, if they donâ€™t help, you will arrest Belcoot for being a runaway Gladiator.

If they still wonâ€™t help, have both of then arrested, so they have sometime to think it over. Marina for treason (a crime she did commit) and Belcoot for protecting a criminal (he lies to protect her).

Post by **Oppenheimer** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:11 pm

Rezard wrote: Well, first you explain to then that if they donâ€™t help out, a war is going to break out,
If they insist in being selfish and cowards, then you can threaten then,
If they still wonâ€™t help, have both of then arrested,

Sounds like you and the Godwins would get along great.

Dura Sinai · Post by **Dura Sinai** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:48 pm

I agree with the sentiment that it was not an easy matter to simply take out Godwin. The two powerful families of Godwin and Barrows more or less created such a steep divide that the Queen could not openly act in favor of either party much less dispose of one. This is why nothing could be done regarding the sacred games. There are suspicions, but with no proof, action is impossible and with a large portion of their citizens in support of Godwin, they could not act rashly.

In the attack during the engagement ceremony, Arshtat had just about lost it and was going to use the rune and basically eliminate all of her enemies. She killed her husband and it forced Georg to uphold his promise to stop her in case it went too far. The knights fought as well. Nobody expected Nethergate to appear much less Godwin pull a coup d'etat. To say they gave up withought a fight is wrong. However, allowing the use of the sun rune would have been disasterous.

And in fact Arshtat does toy with using the sun rune on the Godwins in her less stable form. Ferid often has to bring her back to her senses to prevent her from causing a great deal of harm to a city or to the nation. Ferid is not a coward but he does take a very reasonable approach to matters.

But ultimately when it comes down to things, the royal family's power is not necessarily absolute. Politics affects matters. No individual can simply run off on their own without great consequences. Nuking any enemy that stands against you does nothing to promote your cause and with enough enemies any nation will face a downfall.

dfvzdfxf · Post by **dfvzdfxf** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:57 pm

Dura Sinai wrote:I agree with the sentiment that it was not an easy matter to simply take out Godwin. The two powerful families of Godwin and Barrows more or less created such a steep divide that the Queen could not openly act in favor of either party much less dispose of one. This is why nothing could be done regarding the sacred games. There are suspicions, but with no proof, action is impossible and with a large portion of their citizens in support of Godwin, they could not act rashly.

Not sure why that is though. Consider that they took out Lordlake and no one really batted an eyelid. They "murdered/executed" Rovere and his ENTIRE family. About HALF the nation supported it! So it would have been better to take out Stormfist and give Falena a chance rather than let Godwins take over and destory all of Falena. Ferid actually conspired with Georg to assassinate the Queen RATHER THAN assassinate Marscal and protect his family and Falena. Of course, we don't know exactly how Arshtat destroyed Lordlake but we can assume that the Rune Bearer and immediate party members would be protected from the destruction of the Rune should Arshtat have destroyed Stormfist similar to Lordlake. About half the country would've supported the move (I'm sure Barows and his folks would've along with the dwarves, beavers, Sable, half of Lelcar, etc).

Jowy Atreides · Post by **Jowy Atreides** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:09 pm

Rezard wrote:Well, first you explain to then that if they donâ€™t help out, a war is going to break out, lots of people will die, etc... You could even offer amnesty if she helped.

They don't know a war will break out. Either way, something was going to happen. You could argue endlessly either way.

If they insist in being selfish and cowards, then you can threaten then, if they donâ€™t help, you will arrest Belcoot for being a runaway Gladiator.

That's the worst thing Arshtat and Ferid could do in any situation, especially one as potentially sensitive to national security as this one. "Cowardice" and "Selfishness" aren't exactly crimes. Arshtat and Ferid don't approve of the Gladitorial system in any capacity, and arresting a renegade would be a major conflict of interest.

If they still wonâ€™t help, have both of then arrested, so they have sometime to think it over. Marina for treason (a crime she did commit) and Belcoot for protecting a criminal (he lies to protect her).

I wouldn't agree about just placing them in prison for them to "think it over", but I guess they could be implicated for the crimes they did infact commit. Someone like Taylor may start asking questions and uncover the truth, which would only serve to hinder Godwin's cause, ultimately. Win-win.