On Harmonia's postion as a superpower.

[Black Fang]

and since religion and politcs don't mix

Wouldn't say this so easily. As a metter of fact it is almost always the opposite. Religion governs politics, and politics created religion, but thats a whole other argument.

from the sources I read here I was lead to believe that he founded Harmonia. It says people feared him as "The Absolute One" or something like that. Nothing I read gives me the idea he was a nice guy.

Yes he was named the absolute one after the formation of Harmonia most likely as he freed the country. Nothing you read gives you the idea that he was a nice guy but people seem to assume that he is a villian even though there is no evidence the dude did anything wrong (asides from becoming a politician of course).

Though slavery dosen't really help the economocy as it costs a lot to keep a slave well and maintained for its duties.

Even though it would suck to be a slave and it would cause severe problems in our societies, in a country where it has been a norm for centuries I doubt it would be as bad of a problem as people make it out to be, not to mention that the slaves didn't know any better. As for the cost of the slaves, I'm fully disagreeing with you there as they should produce more than enough for themselves (which is VERY little) and their master (at least according to every past nationality that used slavery).

Personally, I believe that Hikusaak has a bigger plan. I'm still on the edge over who holds true power him or the church, but I'm positive he is the smarter one (which could have something to do with his dissaperance - a plot). Otherwise the church put him in the slammer for a disagreement heh.

[Flame Champion]

well, first look at the logical bearings of the situation.

Harmonia is a HUGE and powerful country. as stated, it's army numbers in the millions. Now Harmonia must also control an obscene amount of wealth, to be able to maintain such an army, as well as indicated by its size. However mobilizing such a massive force would cost a ridiculous amount of money. Not only are the armies separated into smaller factions that would need to be pulled together, but they need a huge force at home as well to maintain "peace". If they sent too many troops out, they would be left open at home.

We cannot say how many other countries exist or how many people live in them. But if Harmonia decided to wage war to take over the world, which i doubt is their intent anyways, i'd say it is safe to assume basically everyone would take up arms against them. We don't know how big the Queendom of Falena is, or what countries lie in the Nameless Lands and beyond, but i think it is safe to say that nobody would stand by while harmonia took over the world. and to be honest, i think harmonia would lose if they did try and do so, with the pooled strength of the other nations, united behind their most brilliant strategists and powerful true rune bearers.

However i somehow see Harmonia starting a massive conflict in the future, with Hikusaak at it's helm, for the sole purpose of drawing all the true rune bearers together....and yes, hopefully for something less cliched than "end of the world" or "becoming a god"....

anyways, the technology does not exist, nor does harmonia have the man power I think to wage war against the world

[Black Fang]

Harmonia is expansive in size and population. It has a military might of over one million soldiers like and is very advanced in terms of both culture and technology. Those are the facts. Harmonia does have the wealth to cover the use of such an army as it is first and foremost one of the busiest trade centers in the known suikoworld. Its secondary source of wealth would come from its successful campaigns and as hired muscle for its allies (eg Highland against city state). Harmonia is based on a system of slaves, which means that every soldier potentially has its own slave. Kind of like an ancient Greek feeling to it.

Consider some of the following populations and you'll get the better idea of Harmonia's power.

Gregminster - 19,000
Muse - 13,000
Greenhill - 8,000
Rockaxe - 7,400
Southwindow - 9,000
Two River - 9,000
L'Renouille/Higheast - 21,000
Tinto -8,000

Grasslands, Zexen, Island Nations and Nameless Lands would have even less character, so that should put in perspective the true might of 1,000,000 soldiers. These capitals of Toran and Dunan combine to a might just a little weaker than one tenth Harmonia's power. This is their POPULATION, compared to Harmonian MILITARY. Kind of puts things in perspective a little more. If they sent HALF of their full power, they'd still have more than these nations combined. Several times more.

You shouldn't be so quick to say that everyone would take up arms against Harmonia. Most of these nations are long time enemies. The way I see it they'd be much like city states only worse. Tinto fought with Zexen and the Grasslands constantly as did City State with Scarlet Moon Empire. Even if they did unite, Harmonia would still crush them in one blow, although I think Harmonia would adopt the divide and conquer technique. That way every time they occupy a nation they increase in soldier capacity. Those captured soldiers would have to fight because of the safety of their families which would be in Harmonia's hands.

Falena itself is said to be very powerful too but no one knows how strong it really is. It is known that it is far away though and most likely wouldn't get influenced by the war Harmonia would be waging on other nations. Not much is known about the Nameless Lands but there hasn't been a single hint of power coming from that side. The impression they are giving out at the moment is that they are a handful of war torn nations. Again, much like city-state except in wars with one another. I personally think Harmonia WOULD win this fight based on facts we were given thus far. As far as strategy is involved, Harmonia has the upper hand as that is where the Stoldt Academy is located. This is the academy where just about all the strategists we've seen in all the suikoden games go for study.

Harmonia itself is already a proud owner of three true runes (had five at one point) and getting those back doesn't seem to be too much of a problem as Luc demonstrated in Suikoden III.

There was a time when Harmonia actually did rule most of the world. We know they had control over Highland (which they gave away as a province) as well as the Toran region (before it was the Scarlet Moon Empire), which makes a logical inference that they controlled the city state area too, mind you nothing of this is ever mentioned.

Harmonia definitely has the manpower to wage that war and there is technology whether you choose to believe it or not. Suikoden I alone had a boat with an engine, fire spears, a modern day vault and a massive mirror that acted as an advanced super weapon. The Sindar showed their technological advancement with their ruins. Finally you forget that Clive has A GUN!!! The entire Howling Voice Guild WORKS for Harmonia. Best hunters and assassins in the world. Talk about easy leader executions. Harmonia also has the power to clone as is apparent with Luc and Sasarai. Its best to consider all the facts before making a judgment. It is true that we know little of Falena, Nameless Lands and the Western Continent, but we know that the two that are possibly very powerful are also very far away with nothing to lose in this sense, and the third seems like many nations waging a war (suppose thats why they used the word 'Lands').

[Flame Champion]

I don't care if you are the trade center of the world, considering how vast Harmonia's army is, as you put it compared to the other countries, is ridiculously immense. I'd like to know how they would move 500,000 units as one group, as well as taking care of them, which would involve feeding them and giving them shelter. Not to mention paying them, soldiers dont fight for free. Not only that but how would the government convince the soldiers and their families to wage war against such small foes? Just as many would desert Harmonia as those that would join it.

And as for Luc getting the True Runes, Luc was in no way acting for Harmonia. Nor do others in Harmonia have his powers and capabilities.. And i suspect Sasarai wouldn't wield his for Harmonia they did decide to go to war against.....everyone. He fought alongside half of the people that Harmonia would be killing, i don't think that's his style.

Not only that but think about the True Runes. Harmonia would have possibly one or two on it's side (that we know of), and one, the Circle Rune, we don't even know the powers it has, and it's not likely it would be used anyways unless Hikusaak appeared, and in my opinion, Sasarai wouldnt use his against everyone else. It is possible that Harmonia has more that we dont know of, or that they retained the True Wind Rune, but we can't be sure(i'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say Yuber would help them). We do know, however, that in the past, they had been scared away, with their massive army, by the power of ONE true rune. Mind you, it was devastating to both sides, and its powers were uncontrollable, but we know that at LEAST the Soul Eater, Bright Shield/ Black Sword Rune, Dragon Rune, Blue Moon Rune, True Water Rune, True Fire Rune, True Lightning Rune, and half the Gate Rune would be used against Harmonia....That's quite the collection, one that i don't think Harmonia could match.

That is all speculation, as is this entire topic really, but after with all that accounted for, i don't think Harmonia has what it takes to take over the world. Not to mention internal conflict in its government.

Feel free to offer your opinion on what you think of why you think Harmonia could stand up to the challenges that i said it would have to face, or correct me if you disagree.

[Vextor]

It has a military might of over one million soldiers like and is very advanced in terms of both culture and technology. Those are the facts.

This is not a fact, actually.

[Black Fang]

Which part exactly?

[Vextor]

One million soldiers. I haven't seen actual figures on how many troops harmonia has in totality.

[Black Fang]

Well where did you get the information on the size of its army in the first place? If they number less than a million (mind you much less) then the whole strategy is lost. I'm pretty sure they're very powerful though. I'll look around and see if anyone has seen anything about the numbers.

[Vextor]

Nobody knows anything beyond the fact that Harmonia has a "massive army." My disagreement is with your "one million" figure.

[Flame Champion]

I know of this figure as well. I believe it was inlcuded in a summary of Harmonia, but i'm not sure what web site it was on, it's fairly common though.

But as far it being advanced in technology and culture, that is NOT a fact.

So you saw ONE engine powered ship in Toran? uhhh, last time i checked, Toran is not Harmonia, nor have i seen any other ships with engines after that.

And Clive's gun? so what? a few members of the howling voice guild have guns...very special and rare ones too. if they were that useful and easy to manufacture i'm sure more Harmonians would use them, but as they are NOT, one cannot assume that they would be used by Harmonia.

[Black Fang]

I know Flame. I've also seen the 1 million floating around. I'm positive it was either here or on suikox, both of which are influenced by SARS in the first place.

The proof that even ONE engine powered ship can exist proves that there is technology in the suikoden world. That was my point when I said that. The technological powers of Harmonia seem to be tied with the Sindar, or so I read. We know that they have the capabilities to clone, which alone requires very advanced technological capabilities.

The reason normal soldiers don't use guns is because the Howling Voice Guild Members wouldn't allow it. They train for years to perfect the art of gun fighting. Why should they give it up and be rendered useless by the Temple? This way the temple needs their services.

Harmonia is also said to be very cultured indeed. It is without a doubt the knowledge central of the known suikoworld. It has the Crystal Valley Library where all major seekers of knowledge turn to, as well as the Stoldt Academy where most of the known strategists went. Due to that alone this place is bound to be rich in culture, not to mention the vast size of the nation.

[The Black Knight]

We know that they have the capabilities to clone, which alone requires very advanced technological capabilities.

This may bee kinnda late but didnt Harmonia use magic to clone.

[Jowy Atreides]

It's a total mystery.

Your guess is as good as anybody else's.

[YuberClone]

where is Harmonia compared to Dunan, Toran or Grassland?

I'm pretty sure that Dunan is north west of Toran. and i'm pretty sure that Grasslands and Zexen are west of Dunan. where is tinto relative to grassland? is it near caleria or closer to chisha? Maybe it's furhter north or south? Nameless lands are north of Grassland?

where is Falena?

[Wraith]

Flalena is SOuth of the Island Nations and Harmonia is to the north of..Everyhting :p