SARSadmin wrote:
Incorrect, because you said that Neclord didn't raze any villages, which is not true. I just wanted to correct that.
You yourself quoted me in a previous post as saying this:
Neclord doesn't raze villages anymore.
(italics mine)
That's a big difference. Never once did I say he never razed a village, so kindly do not imply that I did.
I don't think Neclord has any agenda per se. Neclord seems to simply like destroying things and taking brides--he seems to have no real "agenda" besides living the way he wants.
While technically still an agenda, that is the only really good angle I've heard so far that's different what I've said. You go on to give a reason for that, which is good. I would still say that's an agenda though, it's just a very slight differentiation of what I suggested.
Neclord's castle in Suikoden 1 was built only after he was assigned as Magistrate of Lorimar, which happened only within a few years of the onset of the Toran Liberation War.
Would you mind giving me a link to that or anything else that can give similar information?
Considering the fact that the said position has been vacant since Kraze was fired by Windy, it's most likely that Yuber has been the captain of the royal guards since then. That means he was likely involved in a public capacity for about two years.
Same thing. I am unaware of the exact timeline of the first game. I remember one instance of the story where a few months pass without you doing anything, but I can't account for the rest of it.
What exactly is "late" and "early?" His first appearance is around half-way into the game (hardly "late"), and he leaves at the final battle. Hardly "early."
Technically incorrect. Yuber doesn't make his first appearance until after the war has already broke out (which is "coming late") and you finish dealing with him before you finish wiping out the rest of the Highland Army, since you can use Pesmerga in strategy battles and you yourself established in another topic that you cannot bring Pesmerga to meet Yuber at any point in the story, short of a glitch (which is "leaving early").
These examples don't really help because in all cases, the forces Yuber was summoned by have been wiped out--a summoned being will surely go elsewhere if their master is defeated. In the case of Windy, she controlled Yuber 300 years ago, and also during the Gate Rune Wars--she was never "defeated" during that 300 years span. Thus, it's most likely that she maintained that control during the 300 years.
That's not entirely true, either. Yuber leaves
before those who summoned him are defeated. Windy isn't vanquished until after the final battle, and Yuber is long gone before then. Unless Luca summoned Yuber, Yuber left before whoever summoned him did once again, in Suikoden 2. (I'm assuming it had to be Jowy or Leon, correct me if I'm wrong) Again, in Suikoden 3, even though I figure Yuber knew Luc would lose, he nonetheless took off before idea became reality, as did Albert. Only Sarah stuck around (albeit for obvious reasons).
Red Killey wrote:Give me one fact where it said that Pesmerga took two hundred years before finally meeting Yuber or Neclord (meaning: give me a fact that showed when Pesmerga started pursuing Yuber or Neclord, and give me a fact that they never met before during those hundreds of years). We simply don't know what happened between the event of Village of Hidden Runes destruction until Gate Rune War. We know that Pesmerga was looking for Yuber during Gate Rune War, but we don't know whether they've crossed path before or not. Who knows if the previous meeting was a year earlier but Yuber just ran away? Who knows if they've crossed path hundreds of times before and always resulted in Yuber running away so Pesmerga had to catch up yet again?
The way I've formulated my theory is the way you do math problems: plug in what you know to solve for what you don't.
Regarding Yuber and Pesmerga's history, this is what we
know:
1. Pesmerga is pursuing Yuber for an unknown reason. Both times Pesmerga joins up with the main character, it is for no other known reason than to pursue Yuber. He says as much. We never see any indication that he has done, or is interested in doing, anything else.
2. Pesmerga and Yuber have crossed swords, for certain,
once. The duration and exact date are unknown; however, the outcome was, without a doubt, inconclusive (as in, there was no clear winner or loser).
Because we only know of one certain encounter, we must assume that they have only crossed swords that one time, which is why we can't ask if they have hundreds of times as you suggest. There's nothing to even suggest that idea.
Because we have only seen Pesmerga pursue Yuber at the expense of all other things, we have to assume he's been doing it all along. We have never seen him do anything else. Obviously, Pesmerga has been around for at least a few hundred years since it has been established that the two have a past.
Now, we've established that Pesmerga has been around a few hundred years, has always pursued Yuber, and they've met, for sure, exactly once. Result? No matter where you place that one encounter on the Suikoden timeline, Pesmerga has been chasing Yuber for hundreds of years without what one might call success.
With this information, Pesmerga knew that whoever killed/defeated Neclord needed SDS to do it. So he came to Cave of Wind with the hope of meeting those who used SDS when they returned it to there again. Using his experience in Gate Rune War, he knew that SDS couldn't shut his mouth up.
First, it is my opinion that if Pesmerga were smart and wanted to link up with the SDS, he would have, the second time around, sought the person who last held the SDS - Viktor - instead of waiting around in the cave. It makes sense: who would be the most likely to know what happened to the sword than the last person who was known to use it? It's safe to assume that Pesmerga knew Viktor had it in Suikoden 1.
So it would be logical to say that one who used SDS wouldn't stand to use it forever and in the end would return it to Cave of Wind.
I disagree completely.
Here is what we know that is relevant to the SDS that is also relevant to this discussion:
1. The only people who have, for sure, wielded it, were Viktor and Edge. Tessai from Suikoden 2
knows about the SDS, but we don't know of anyone who has ever wielded it other than Viktor and Edge.
2. The sword has a condescending personality and a nasty temper. Any sign of disrespect is grounds for the sword erupting in fury and possibly attacking the offender (read: Suikoden 2).
3. The sword has been found in two different places: The Caves of the Past (Suikoden 1) and the Cave of the Wind (Suikoden 2). If these are the same places, correct me later.
4. Some time after the events of Suikoden 2, Viktor
gave the sword to Edge. He then went on an adventure with Flik. Edge has kept the sword ever since.
Now, to go back to your quote.
You make a very broad assumption that everyone gets sick of the Star Dragon Sword and returns it to the Cave of the Wind. There seems to be an implication that several people have used it, but since you don't explicitly say it, I'll ignore that. (Fact #1)
Viktor was obviously very annoyed by the sword, and the feeling was mutual. The sword tried offing Viktor, but failed. (Fact #2) Based on the sword's personality and feelings of superiority, there is no reason to believe that the sword was holding back: it did, after all, try to kill. Did you notice that after the sword lost, while it may have complained about everything - including, but not limited to, the way Viktor calls the sword a thing, and the fact that Viktor "swings me too hard" - it never again tried to attack Viktor? My guess is the sword knew it couldn't defeat Viktor, unless the sword was suddenly imbued with feelings of respect. Sure, Viktor couldn't stand the sword for long, but he did not return it to the Cave of the Wind either time, unless The Caves of the Past and the Cave of the Wind are one and the same, in which case he returned it to its spot exactly once. (Fact #3)
The second time, he gave it to Edge. (Fact #4) Now, there is no reason to believe that the sword considered itself anything but superior to Edge (Fact #2). This can be surmised from Kidd when Kidd says: "He travels with his Star Dragon Sword. He's strong and composed. He pays no attention to his Sword's nasty comments." Based on the sword's relationship with Viktor, as well as what we know of Edge, the only explanation we can give is that Edge simply does not give the sword grief, making him a willing servant of the sword (I will get back to that shortly). Is Edge sick of the sword? Perhaps. We honestly don't know. However, for argument's sake, assume he is. That would make you two-for-two as far as people getting sick of the sword goes.
However, this is key. Edge does not return the sword. Two sources confirm this.
First, we turn to Kidd again: "He claims to be 'keeping the Star Dragon Sword for someone important.' I wonder who that person might be?" Notice that Edge never returns the sword to its resting place.
Secondly, we turn to what the game tells us about Edge in the ending: "To defeat a foe sought by the Star Dragon Sword, he goes on a voyage to the south." He's obeying the sword. The sword dictates, and Edge obeys.
Conclusion: he isn't going to return it, whether or not he's sick of it.
So please don't say that I edited my posts to change stuff that is related to me agreeing to your theory of Yuber.
I never said that. I was just saying it was unfortunate timing. How would you know that I wanted to use a certain thing you said, unless I had told you prior, which both of us can confirm that I did not. The reason I asked was because if it was only one post, I was going to ask you if you still had the old version of it so I could look at it again.
Step 2. Has it ever been known that Yuber worked alone? Answer is again, Not that we know of. Meaning that he had always been employed/summoned/whatever by someone.
Not true. I turn to Suikoden 3's ending:
"There's a rumor he's been seen amongst the deformed creatures that sprung forth from the crumbled ruins."
This casts enough doubt on your theory that it can't just be assumed to be true. Note that he's not known to be under anyone's wing at this point. Since Luc's dead and he was still at the ruins, he was not summoned again. This means Yuber has no leader, but he's still around, this time solo. This means Yuber may have worked alone at any point in Suikoden's history.
Which means it's entirely possible that he operated without Windy, Neclord, or anyone else in the 300 years between when the three of them stopped working all together, and the start of Suikoden 1. While inconclusive, this is a plausible idea. It would fit with Yuber's personality, unless he absolutely needs to have someone ordering him around to cause chaos, which seems unlikely.
Also, who started this rumor? While inconclusive, it may very well have been the chatter of normal people. Ordinary people may have known what was going on all along.
I asked you to name 20 SoDs that able to recognize Riou without being introduced or Riou introducing himself or saw him before.
(italics mine)
I was under the impression you just asked for 20 SoDs who were able to identify Riou at all. If you said that before in those words, I missed it. I apologize.
So keep your facts straight before saying that I don't answer your questions. The last challenge wasn't answered yet because as I mentioned earlier, I didn't have time (I live in Australia and when I posted that, it was around 8 AM while my class started at 8.30 AM).
You sound offended. I am referring to posts in the past, but I repeat that once again I'm not trying to make a personal attack. I'm sorry, again, if it's interpreted as such.
Congratulations, but you're still wrong, Killey.