Testing Damage Mechanics

[wataru14]

The recent Thunder Rune Piece thread discussion has got me thinking about enemy attacks and elements and such, so I decided to do some experimenting with damage elements and modifiers and things. I found some interesting things so far.

Failing to Run or Bribe halves physical damage like Defending does. Don't know if it affects counterattack.

I've only worked Magician's Island so far, but the Golem's ground pound attack is Earth magic. An Earth Rune halved the damage.
And strangely, Pahn also only took half damage.

The Golem's MGC stat is 25.
Tir's was 22 and Pahn's was 6.
Tir took 3-4 damage as expected.
Pahn should have taken 19, but only took 10.

I'll post more findings as I discover them.

[Z3R01337]

Failed run or bribe is treated as all Defend, so that checks out. What slot did you have Pahn in? According to the theory I posted in the Thunder Rune Piece thread, the character in slot 4 should take half damage from Earth. Wondering if your data can support or debunk that theory.

[wataru14]

Slot 3. Right hand side of the front row.
I should be getting to the Queen Ant soon, and her spell is most likely Earth. I'll see if it checks out in a minute.

[wataru14]

Queen Ant's spell is Earth. Earth Rune halved it on Gremio.
Pahn took full damage. I wonder why he took half from the Golem then?
And @Z3R01337, Cleo was in Slot 4 and took normal damage.

Queen Ant MGC 55
Tir MGC 32 (took 23)
Gremio MGC 18 (37 normal, 19 with Earth Rune)
Pahn MGC 9 (took 45)
Cleo MGC 40 (took 15)

[Z3R01337]

Dang, that means my slot theory doesn't quite hold either. I wonder what's going on then... Might have to go and actually reverse engineer one of these scenarios at some point.

[wataru14]

[deleted by poster]

[wataru14]

I made it up to securing the Castle of Toran and here is what I've found so far (besides what's common knowledge).

- Pretty much everything is medium range with no modifiers to physical damage. The exceptions are Crow, Slasher Rabbit, and Killer Rabbit. All three have standard attacks that can hit the back row. Even bow-using enemies like Green Bandits and Crossbow Soldiers never targeted the back. That doesn't mean they can't, just that they never did when I fought them.
- I think Sydonia's regular melee attack has a damage modifier. Possibly x1.25? He did more damage than expected and it was a lot more than random variance had been on anything else up to that point. And it had similar damage results on everyone. He also has a long-range attack that does standard damage that he hardly ever uses.
- Oannes' Poison slap attack does 1/2 the damage of its spear attack.
- Zombie Dragon's breath is indeed Holy elemental. A Resurrection Rune halved the damage on Cleo.

I'm also beginning to believe that Z3R01337's party Slot theory may be on to something. While testing Zombie Dragon damage, Tai Ho was in slot 6 (back row right) and took half damage. He had no Rune. I reloaded the save and switched his position with Camille (also no Rune). When she was in Slot 6, she took half damage and Tai took full damage in Slot 5 (back row middle). That might explain Pahn's Earth resistance in the Golem fight. Z3R said Slot 4, but in a 5-man party, it may be Slot 3 (front row right).

I may have to go back and retry those two fights with different combinations tomorrow.

[Z3R01337]

Zombie Dragon was the fight where I first noticed the slot thing. In the list of elements Julian posted here viewtopic.php?p=162944#p162944 Holy was 6, which matches Zombie Dragons breath attack. Looking at it again though, Earth is actually 5, I misread it as 4. So with my theory slot 5 should take less damage from Earth, not 4.

[Julian]

I haven't noticed the slot thing on the PSP, so I'm not able to help much with regards to that. I guess that's one of the few bugs they (probably accidentally) fixed. lol

Which means it'll likely be fixed on the remaster as well.

[wataru14]

After beating Kwanda, I have some new findings.

- Slot Man has six attacks. Single-target magic in both Fire and Lightning flavors. A self-heal. A weird "attack" that heals everyone in your party for 7 HP. A rare Earth-based magic attack that hits the whole party and can cause balloon. And a single-target bomb attack that counts as physical.
- The Assassin (and probably all ninja types) does x1 damage when he throws a shuriken and x1.5 damage when he attacks with his sword.
- Strong Arm's enemy throw and rock throw attacks both do the same damage.
- Gigantes' magic attack is Fire elemental.
- The Devil Shield's ring attack (and probably the later shields' similar attack) is non-elemental. Tir halved it, but no one else did, no matter what Rune they had on.
- The Dragon boss' breath is Fire elemental and does 1/2 damage inherently (resistance halves it again). The single-target attack is Lightning elemental and does full damage.

It seems that single-target magic attacks can't hit the back row. Not one enemy that has them ever did it.

The game also seems to not be tricky with the elements. Visual clues seem to be correct so far. If it looks like fire, it is. I'm interested to see what the enemies in Neclord's Castle do, since they seem to have the same blue fire as the Zombie Dragon and that's Holy elemental.

Also, during the Dragon boss fight, whoever was in Slot 1 (first row left) also got free Fire resistance. I tried it with three different people (no Fire Runes) and each one took super reduced damage (after the attack's inherent 1/2). It does not happen with Gigantes. I wasn't paying attention when I fought him, but I watched a Youtube playthrough and the player's Valeria in slot 1 took full damage.

It's possible that the resistance only happens on Boss fights and the Queen Ant wasn't considered a boss. Which makes sense since Hell works on her and she appears later as a standard encounter. But then why not Gigantes? Maybe only certain boss fights? Maybe Gigantes was going to be a random enounter late game and they scrapped it? It makes sense if he drops a Goldlet.

[wataru14]

Findings after beating Teo.

- Creeper's swallow attack does three standard hits, each full damage. Ouch!
- Nightmare is weird. They have three attacks. Water full heals the enemies. Fire is a Fire elemental magic attack. Lightning is a physical attack. Tir didn't halve it, but Defending did.
- The Siren's scream is typeless and can add Silence. The dart attack is physical.

Enemies of the same type have identical attack setups so far (big surprise). No outliers have damage mods or attacks that their pallete swaps don't have. The only exception I've seen is that the Holly Fairies of Kunan don't have the Incite ability of the Holly Spirits of the Great Forest. I guess it only works on Holly Boys.

[wataru14]

Post-Neclord:

Some surprises here.
- The Sorcerers in the Lorimar region's magic attack is Holy elemental.
- Clay Doll's Magic is Earth, as expected.
- Banshee's scream is non-elemental and inflicts Silence (and they don't have a physical attack... or at least never used it)
- Red Elemental is long-range
- The Demon Sorcerer's magic attack is Fire elemental. I thought it would be Holy since it resembles the Zombie Dragon's.
- The Hell Unicorn's magic attack is Water elemental. I think it's the only one in the game besides (probably) Sonya's.
- Neclord's magic attacks are Wind and Lighting (as expected) and his bat attack is physical.

[TheyCallMeStacy]

Thanks for all this extensive testing, I appreciate all your findings!

Yeah, the slot position affecting damage taken was talked about in one thread I posted on before, but it's fascinating that it's more extensive than just the Zombie Dragon. Definitely seems like a bug.

And yeah, I think it is quite possible Gigantes was meant to be a common enemy, since the goldlet otherwise cannot be continuously obtained. Its stats also don't seem to be very well balanced as a boss, as it's only slightly stronger than the zombie dragon, but your party is much more powerful at that point. So I definitely think it could have been transitioned into the boss for that section.

And yeah, I always noticed the creeper's triple chewing attack seemed very strong. When I was using frailer characters, it could even kill them in one attack, which no other physical attack from regular enemies ever could, so it makes sense that the attack worked like that.

And interesting finds on the nightmare's lightning attack being physical, and the Hell Unicorn's attack being water elemental.

Keep up the good work! I love finding out about all these obscure mechanics of the game

[wataru14]

Dragon Knights Mission.
- Magic Shield, like it's earlier pallete swap, has a typeless magic attack.
- Sunshine King's ring attack is physical. But it seems to only do x0.3 damage or so.
- Mirage is long-range.
- Rock Buster uses Earth magic, as expected.
- Wyvern has no physical attack, but has full-party Fire and Wind spells.
- Queen Ant is the same as the Mt. Seifu version. Full-party Earth spell and nothing else.

The Crystal Core is where it gets weird.

The second phase has a full-party magic attack. It is typeless. Tir halved it, but no one else did, no matter what Rune they had.
But the first phase is very strange.

The single-target crystal attack is not halved by Defend. So it can't be physical.
And Tir did not halve the damage, either. So if it's magic, it can't be any element the Soul Eater halves (that mysterious "Element 08" mentioned in the Thunder Rune Piece Thread, perhaps).

It did 204, 213, and 193 to Humphrey (with 252 ARM and 55 MGC).
It did 199 and 171 to Flik (with 228 ARM and 132 MGC).
It did 196, 183, 188, and 203 to Tir (with 219 ARM and 136 MGC).
Since the mumbers are so close, especially considering the huge difference in MGC, it can't use the standard damage calculations.

This is consistent with what like2h mentioned. I have no flipping idea. Can someone with more computer savvy than I look into this? It's really weird.

[wataru14]

Reloaded my last full save and went back in damage was as follows:

Humphrey (MGC 58 - expected damage 224): 211, 207, 222 (avg 213)
Flik (MGC 128 - expected damage 147): 171, 198, 196, 174 (avg 184)
Crowley (MGC 202 - expected damage 73): 98, 95, 94, 101 (avg 97)
Milia (MGC 55 - expected damage 220): 194, 210, 204 (avg 202)
Tir (MGC 131 - expected damage 144): 202, 171, 179, 185 (avg 184)
Tengaar (MGC 156 - expected damage 119): 106, 115, 112, 114 (avg 111)

Crowley and (especially) Tir and Flik took way more damage than expected. The others were more or less on track.

Some things that might help:

Tengaar is MGC growth 7 and Crowley is MGC growth 8. Tir and Flik have 6. Humphrey and Milia have growth 1. Both took around 100 damage when everyone else took around 200.
Tengaar and Crowley both had MGC stats over 150. Everyone else was lower. Both took around 100 damage when everyone else took around 200.
Humphrey and Milia have MGC stats less than half that of Tir and Flik. They took slightly more damage, but not proportionately.

Theories:
The Crystal Core does flat damage (adjusted for randomness), based on either MGC growth rate or overall MGC score.
I will reload and try with a 5, 4, 3, 2, and 0 to see what happens.