Romantic villains
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Romantic villains
I just thought about the fact that most of the main villains in Suikoden are married or in a close relationship.
SI - Windy had Barbarossa.
SII - Jowy married Jillia.
SIII - Luc had his Sarah.
SIV - ?
S Tactics - Iskas was the lover of the Queen of Kooluk herself.
SV - And Arshtat had Ferid.
In my opinion it gives the villains some more depth and makes them a bit more interesting depending how much their relationships are developed. What do you think of these romantic villains? Should the series keep this trend or would you like the villains to be single for once and develop in different ways?
SI - Windy had Barbarossa.
SII - Jowy married Jillia.
SIII - Luc had his Sarah.
SIV - ?
S Tactics - Iskas was the lover of the Queen of Kooluk herself.
SV - And Arshtat had Ferid.
In my opinion it gives the villains some more depth and makes them a bit more interesting depending how much their relationships are developed. What do you think of these romantic villains? Should the series keep this trend or would you like the villains to be single for once and develop in different ways?
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- EstrangedIX
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Re: Romantic villains
I like the idea of villains with souls, so relationships are fine by me. As far as IV goes, and might as well throw Luca in here too, it's not romance but family. Cray wanted the Rune back to have a connection to his son, not just for power. And Luca's family issues are his motivation since he felt Agares was too weak. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was that weakness that he blamed for the attack that conceived Jillia.
It's the depth of these connections that make the antagonists interesting enough to care about. True, IV didn't do the best job of that with Cray but it's there if you look close enough. Oh yeah, and Troy seems to be married to the sea
It's the depth of these connections that make the antagonists interesting enough to care about. True, IV didn't do the best job of that with Cray but it's there if you look close enough. Oh yeah, and Troy seems to be married to the sea
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Re: Romantic villains
Cray didn't have a romantic relationship, but an emotional to his son and a very personal history with the RoP. I think they should have made this clearer...
I don't see Arshtat or Ferid as antagonists. <_< But Gizel had Lym and that's also quite interesting. It is a wedding with political backgrounds and no love at all.
Also, I always wonder how much love was involved in Jowys and Jillias wedding...
I don't see Arshtat or Ferid as antagonists. <_< But Gizel had Lym and that's also quite interesting. It is a wedding with political backgrounds and no love at all.
Also, I always wonder how much love was involved in Jowys and Jillias wedding...
- Hirathien
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Re: Romantic villains
Marscal did have his wife though.
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Re: Romantic villains
Since when was Arshtat a villian? Kraze had a thing for Lepants wife, Sonya (Who was a boss) fell in love with Teo Mcdohl before the events of Suikoden 1, Alenia from S5 had a crush on Gizelle. Gizelle himself thought of Sialeeds as his true love.
Suikodens tend to focus on the human element in war. Alliances are fragile and love and jealousy play a big hand in the plots of all of the suikoden titles.
Suikodens tend to focus on the human element in war. Alliances are fragile and love and jealousy play a big hand in the plots of all of the suikoden titles.
- Zer0
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Re: Romantic villains
Yeah, Gizel had sialeeds moreso than lym. Who was really just a tool with little development between them imo.
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Re: Romantic villains
Not all the villains had romantic attachments.
Suikoden I: Barbarosa was in love with Windy, who resembled his true love Claudia. Teo and Sonya were also in love, implied if not necessarily spelled out.
Suikoden II: Jowy and Jillia are fairly obvious in the sense they were married and they may have had <i>some</i> feeling for each other, but who knows how far it went (I'd say it was non-existent in the beginning but blossomed into a true love for Jillia only at the end - I have nothing to base this on).
Suikoden III: Sarai in love with Luc? I haven't played it.
Suikoden IV: IIRC there is hinted to be backstory with Eleanor and Cray as she was his mentor. I don't know if a formerly romantic
angle is in any way hinted.
Suikoden Tactics: I can't remember the plot clear enough. The OP mentioned Iskas and the Queen of Kolook, but Iskas doesn't strike me as either a benevolent or romantic type.
Suikoden V: Neither Arshtat nor Ferid are evil or antagonists and can be ignored from this list. On the other hand, it's very clear that Gizel still has a thing for Sialeeds and her motives remain obscured. There is also a loveless and clinical marriage between Gizel and Lymsleia. And Marscal is married, although we never see the wife.
I think having some of the villains have romantic entanglements can be good. Barbarossa and Windy are one of the most memorable despite both characters - along with all the other villains in S1 - being criminally underwritten. I can salivate at a remake at this game which gives us characterising cutscenes with these two and their relationship. Jillia and Jowy is perhaps in some ways the most iconic and tragic, more so because they both survive and still go their separate ways. Gizel and Sialeeds would be more interesting if we'd had her motivations explained more clearly. I know people have 'explained it' but the fact that it needs such an explanation denotes that it wasn't good writing in the first place. That and I've played it twice and I still don't have a real idea, but maybe that's part of her appeal.
Cray, Iskas, and by definition of not playing III, Sarah & Luc, are non-starters for me. Cray is an irrelevant villain and Iskas was a cliched bore.
-Jeremiah Ecks,
who hopes not to sound too negative.
Suikoden I: Barbarosa was in love with Windy, who resembled his true love Claudia. Teo and Sonya were also in love, implied if not necessarily spelled out.
Suikoden II: Jowy and Jillia are fairly obvious in the sense they were married and they may have had <i>some</i> feeling for each other, but who knows how far it went (I'd say it was non-existent in the beginning but blossomed into a true love for Jillia only at the end - I have nothing to base this on).
Suikoden III: Sarai in love with Luc? I haven't played it.
Suikoden IV: IIRC there is hinted to be backstory with Eleanor and Cray as she was his mentor. I don't know if a formerly romantic
angle is in any way hinted.
Suikoden Tactics: I can't remember the plot clear enough. The OP mentioned Iskas and the Queen of Kolook, but Iskas doesn't strike me as either a benevolent or romantic type.
Suikoden V: Neither Arshtat nor Ferid are evil or antagonists and can be ignored from this list. On the other hand, it's very clear that Gizel still has a thing for Sialeeds and her motives remain obscured. There is also a loveless and clinical marriage between Gizel and Lymsleia. And Marscal is married, although we never see the wife.
I think having some of the villains have romantic entanglements can be good. Barbarossa and Windy are one of the most memorable despite both characters - along with all the other villains in S1 - being criminally underwritten. I can salivate at a remake at this game which gives us characterising cutscenes with these two and their relationship. Jillia and Jowy is perhaps in some ways the most iconic and tragic, more so because they both survive and still go their separate ways. Gizel and Sialeeds would be more interesting if we'd had her motivations explained more clearly. I know people have 'explained it' but the fact that it needs such an explanation denotes that it wasn't good writing in the first place. That and I've played it twice and I still don't have a real idea, but maybe that's part of her appeal.
Cray, Iskas, and by definition of not playing III, Sarah & Luc, are non-starters for me. Cray is an irrelevant villain and Iskas was a cliched bore.
-Jeremiah Ecks,
who hopes not to sound too negative.
"Everything is something, but nothing is everything."
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Re: Romantic villains
Lazlo had Snowe. Have you seen his pirate ensemble with the collar? What do you think was going on there?DoReMi_Vampire wrote: SIV - ?
That is assuming you consider Snowe a villain. He's definitely an antagonist.
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Re: Romantic villains
*winks*
Yes, Snowe is an antagonist.
Yes, Snowe is an antagonist.
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Re: Romantic villains
Marscal is a widower, actually, and his wife's death predates the events of the game. When you retake Stormfist, I believe Dilber Novum is the one who mentions that Lady Godwin's grave is in the castle (which is why he was defending it).Jeremiah Ecks wrote:Suikoden V: Neither Arshtat nor Ferid are evil or antagonists and can be ignored from this list. On the other hand, it's very clear that Gizel still has a thing for Sialeeds and her motives remain obscured. There is also a loveless and clinical marriage between Gizel and Lymsleia. And Marscal is married, although we never see the wife.
(We also know that Salum Barows has a wife, who is alive during the events, but who has become a paranoid recluse after her oldest son was assassinated. We never see her, though, I believe Euram at least is known to go into her room to speak with her if you choose to recruit him. Salum's an antagonist as well, but hardly THE antagonist, even though it's his actions that essentially lead to the game's starting point at a scorched Lordlake...)
As for Jowy and Jillia, I always felt perhaps Jowy admired and respected Jillia, to a degree. Obviously, using her and her family as political tools isn't really what one would call respectful, but that aside, I do think they mutually were okay with each other as human beings, and perhaps under different circumstances, may have been able to reciprocate any genuine romantic feelings. Otherwise, I think it was mainly just trust and admiration. Jillia likely respected Jowy's intelligence and he respected her compassion and devotion and they may have enjoyed each others' company at the very least.
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Re: Romantic villains
Lots of political intrigues throughout history often have been centered around romance or some sort of complicated relationship issues. Just look at Henry VIII and all his wives! There's also Antony and Cleopatra and probably lots of others I can't think of right now. There are many mythical romances, like Helen of Troy, Triston and Isolde, Guenevere and Lancelot. While not all of these romances were necessarily "villainous" romances, they have resulted in a lot of tragic events which changed the history of entire countries. Suikoden always has focused on huge changes happening to a country's political structure, and romance and marriage come into this in different ways, whether it's somebody marrying into a royal family so he can lead the army and make important decisions about the kingdom's future, or a widowed lord who is committing horrible acts or allowing bad things to happen out of grief for a loved one.
- wataru14
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Re: Romantic villains
Iskas and Miranda was not really a romance to me. He seduced her away from Martin initially, but when he started showing off his crazy pants it seemed like she was too scared to try to get away from him. Don't forget what happens during her final appearance in the game.