[Discussion] IczR1's Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

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KFCrispy
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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:07 pm

someone from gamefaqs pointed this out--- why is Oulan rated so low? let's say her total atk is 300 (around 150 STR, 135 from wpn, and i think she has a permanent or just starts with a Power Glove). Fury Rune + Angry Dragon nets 900 dmg per turn. Friendship or Exertion will boost it beyond 1000 dmg, and obviously the Kindness Trick can be used, but i don't think we're using that.

on top of that, her unite with Hanna does decent damage to groups of enemies since both of them have a decent ATK. the other characters would then clean up.

maybe you can provide a threshold of each letter grade's general average damage range.

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IczR1
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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby IczR1 » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:38 pm

Sorry i didn't see that question earlier, i should check this forum more often i guess. And sorry again, i lost the Excel chart with the whole data behind the ranking (my mainboard gave up a while ago, i had to format C, too bad the file was lying in a folder on my desktop which i forgot about back then ... ._.). That's why i can't give exact numbers, but it's nothing you can't figure out anyway :> in fact i think you're more qualified to give answers in this topic than me.

Your calculation for Oulan is correct, it's just that 1000 damage isn't really much in this game. Random example: Nina has a higher base damage value because her attack value is a little bit higher (her weapon power is really high) plus she can equip Double-Beat with Fury which is basically the same as Angry Dragon + Fury. But the most important thing is: Oulan can't score multiple and critical hits when using her command rune, which is where a lot of the damage dealt in a battle comes from. Nina CAN score multiple and critical hits (average odds), and her base damage also is already higher than Oulan's. And Nina isn't even in the top 20 ..


PS: So this topic is a sticky now, i'm glad you think it's (still) relevant enough. I sure love discussing stuff like this :>

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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby KFCrispy » Fri Jan 04, 2008 9:31 am

hm ok, but if you give her a Double Beat and factor in critical hit rate, i'm pretty sure she would be better than Mondo, Tai Ho, etc... her base ATK beats them out significantly, and while her total TECH+LUK may be a little less than Tai Ho and Mondo, the difference is probably 1% or less for their critical hit rates.

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Chaco
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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby Chaco » Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:07 pm

THANK YOU for putting Chaco in the S rank. Chaco is my favorite character and I think people under-estimate him a lot! :D

However I don't agree with Jowy being below Riou... :shock:

A suggestion I have is maybe making a "Mage" chart then a "Fighters" Chart so that you can compare just those things. Since Luc is defensivly and Power wise weak as hell but in Magic he is only outmatched by Mazus, and just by a little. I know it may take thime but that is what I think. :idea:
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IczR1
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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby IczR1 » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:24 am

KFCrispy wrote:hm ok, but if you give her a Double Beat and factor in critical hit rate, i'm pretty sure she would be better than Mondo, Tai Ho, etc... her base ATK beats them out significantly, and while her total TECH+LUK may be a little less than Tai Ho and Mondo, the difference is probably 1% or less for their critical hit rates.

A LITTLE less ? Oulan's luck stat is horrible ^^ and Mondo's tech stat is also higher than hers, even if just a little bit. Tai Ho's critical hit rate is pretty good actually, which saves him somewhat. A good critical rate is worth a lot, that's for sure. And with an A ranking in tech, critical hits happen pretty frequently (Tai Ho is on the same level as Lorelai, which i used pretty much all the time, and she did noticably better than the random average character). Anyway, we're comparing 4.5 to 4.4 here, it's really not that significant. I drew the line at 4.5 back then, which is the only reason why Oulan is one tier below them.

Chaco wrote:A suggestion I have is maybe making a "Mage" chart then a "Fighters" Chart so that you can compare just those things.

I made a post somewhere in this thread where i tried to figure out which character does more damage if used as a mage, does that count ? :> I tried hard judging the mage type characters fairly, don't know if i succeeded (personally i don't like playing mages in Suikoden games much because they're so limited). The majority of characters works better as a figher anyway.

Oh, don't thank me for Chaco being S tier, he's great gameplaywise and deserves to be there. And yeah he's kind of underused. People seem to not like him that much .. well he IS kind of annoying at one point or another ;>

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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby Chaco » Sun Jan 06, 2008 11:22 am

People seem to not like him that much .. well he IS kind of annoying at one point or another ;>


Umm dude my username is chaco I wonder why? :x
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Benthos
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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby Benthos » Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:11 pm

I really think that Georg should be at least before Hai Yo. Hai Yo is too annoying. Why is he in the "A" position?

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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby KoRnholio » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:35 pm

Benthos wrote:I really think that Georg should be at least before Hai Yo. Hai Yo is too annoying. Why is he in the "A" position?


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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby Chaco » Sun Jan 06, 2008 4:58 pm

I really think that Georg should be at least before Hai Yo. Hai Yo is too annoying. Why is he in the "A" position?


Just because a character is annoying doesn't make them better or worse in fighting ability although I do like Georg more.
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patapi
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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby patapi » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:26 am

If Hai Yo's annoyance justifies removing him from "A", then I'd put Luc at the very bottom!

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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby KFCrispy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:54 am

IczR1 wrote:A LITTLE less ? Oulan's luck stat is horrible ^^ and Mondo's tech stat is also higher than hers, even if just a little bit. Tai Ho's critical hit rate is pretty good actually, which saves him somewhat. A good critical rate is worth a lot, that's for sure. And with an A ranking in tech, critical hits happen pretty frequently (Tai Ho is on the same level as Lorelai, which i used pretty much all the time, and she did noticably better than the random average character). Anyway, we're comparing 4.5 to 4.4 here, it's really not that significant. I drew the line at 4.5 back then, which is the only reason why Oulan is one tier below them.


yes, the difference between someone with high TECH+LUK and low TECH+LUK is NOT a huge difference for critical hit rate.
also, critical hits in this game may deal 3x dmg but they do not ignore defense like in Suikoden 3, so they aren't that spectacular.
let's compare critical hit rates with someone who has high TECH+LUK (200 each) and low TECH+LUK (100 each). someone with 200 each has a 12.5% chance to critical hit. someone with 100 each has a 6.25% chance. but what if the 12.5% chance guy has 25 pts lower ATK? the high critical rate guy has 275 ATK and the low crit character has an ATK of 300? then the average damage per attack is not very different...
the high crit character will average around 344 dmg while the low crit gets 339. If the enemy doesn't have 0 in DEF, the numbers get even closer to one another, and if the enemy has high enough DEF, the low crit character has a HIGHER average damage (use 40 or over as the PDF).
Now between Oulan and Tai Ho, i think it's realistic to say that Tai Ho will have lower than 12.5% critical rate (his LUK can't get near 200 and his TECH might be at around 200) and Oulan has a critical rate slightly higher than 6.5% (her TECH is decent, LUK is poor), but it is realistic for Oulan to have 25 more ATK than Tai Ho. That puts Oulan over the edge in damage just from using Double-Beat.

However I still have to say that Oulan averages more damage with Fury + Angry Dragon considering berserk status in this game boosts ATK, not damage. so if her ATK=300, with berserk status it becomes 450 and then you apply enemy defense, and double it for Angry Dragon. i'm pretty sure ATK is boosted by Exertion Rune as well (not damage).

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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby Benthos » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:09 pm

Well, i didn't say that Hai Yo should be less than A just because he's annoying. It's because I really think he's not stronger than Georg.

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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby KoRnholio » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:36 pm

Benthos wrote:Well, i didn't say that Hai Yo should be less than A just because he's annoying. It's because I really think he's not stronger than Georg.


http://www.suikosource.com/games/gs2/in ... eslots.php

That should address your concerns.

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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby Gorudo » Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:19 pm

Also, don't forget that Hai Yo does even more damage on a standard hit by hit basis with Double-Strike than Killer.

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KCMac
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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby KCMac » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:00 am

Perhaps I missed it, but where does Tir McDohl rate in your equation?
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