[Discussion] IczR1's Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

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IczR1
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[Discussion] IczR1's Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby IczR1 » Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:27 pm

Okay, it's done, took me quite a while but it was fun :] when something seems horribly wrong, feel free to correct me.


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Suikoden 2 Character Ranking Table (updated Dec 5, 2005) (mirror)
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I based every stat on the average stat growth (can be found here) since Suikoden 2 level-ups can be quite random at times. It wasn't all that hard to rank the different stats since the stat growth is very linear on paper.
The most important part for the ranking was of course how much damage a character can deal (i compared different possibilities how to deal damage with that specific character and which is the best way in the long run), taking important stats like tech, speed, luck and open rune/weapon slots into account (a fast and/or skilled character CAN outdamage a character that has one rune slot more). The defensive stats influenced the ranking too, although they are not THAT important in Suikoden 2, same goes for magic. I ignored the kindness rune trick for the tiering, since that would make the whole thing a little boring, since everybody would have the same ATK and therefore the differences in the base damage stat would be ignored.

Here's the short overview (Dec 7, 2005):


[S]

Killey (9.6), Sheena (9.4), Chaco (9.3), Riou (9.2), Sid (9.1)

[A+]

Hai Yo (9.0), Jowy (8.8}, Rina (8.7)

[A]

Nanami (7.8}, Gantetsu (7.5), Lorelai (7.4), Viktor (7.2), Kahn (7.1)

[B+]

Ayda (7.0), Flik (6.9), Futch (6.9), Tsai (6.9), Kinnison (6.9), Tomo (6.7), Georg (6.5), Eilie (6.4), Nina (6.3), Tengaar (6.3), Sierra (6.2)

[B]

Millie (6.0), Yoshino (5.9), Luc (5.7), Valeria (5.6), Freed (5.6), Meg (5.6), Pesmerga (5.5), Bob (5.4), Stallion (5.4), LC Chan (5.3), Hoi (5.3), Mazus (5.2), Wakaba (5.1), Hauser (5.1)

[B-]

Karen (5.0), Kasumi (5.0), Gijimu (4.9), Anita (4.9), Shilo (4.9), Clive (4.9), Sasuke (4.8}, Miklotov (4.8}, Humphrey (4.8}, Gengen (4.8}, Zamza (4.8}

[C+]

Gabocha (4.7), Rikimaru (4.7), Koyu (4.7), Camus (4.7), Hanna (4.6), Vincent (4.6), Tai Ho (4.5), Mondo (4.5)

[C]

Oulan (4.4), Badeaux (4.4), Lo Wen (4.3), Simone (4.3), Amada (4.3), Hix (4.2)

[C-]

Shiro (3.6), Feather (3.6), Tuta (3.4), Siegfried (3.4), Bolgan (3.3), Genshu (3.3), Shin (3.2), Viki (3.1)

[D+]

Mekumeku (2.7), Mikumiku (2.6), Makumaku (2.6), Mukumuku (2.6), Mokumoku (2.4), Gadget (2.2)

[D]

Rulodia (1.7), Aziboah (1.5), Chuchara (0.9)
Last edited by IczR1 on Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:50 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Red Killey
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Postby Red Killey » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:48 pm

No offense because it's definitely a hard work for you to come up with the list, but I find the list to be flawed in many places. Your rank is mostly based on characters doing normal attack (and raw stats) instead of flexibility on how to use the characters up to their full potential.

I'll just give 2 examples:
1. Hix and Tuta receiving same score while it's fairly obvious that Hix is better than Tuta. I'm under impression that Tuta scored the same score because he has open WPN slot while Hix doesn't (otherwise Hix should've been way ahead with better stats). But you have to keep in mind that Exertion is indeed the best WPN Rune there is, it's not a drawback for Hix to have Exertion Rune locked in.

2. You give Mazus a very low score (still same as Tuta and Hix) while it's fairly safe to say that Mazus needs to be used for his magic attack, and he's an excellent magician just like Luc. Since you'd use level 99 stats, Mazus would at most have 9/9/7/4 MP. That means 4 times of 1200 dmg to 1 enemy, and 7 times 1000 dmg to 1 enemy. That's a total of 11800 dmg in 11 turns. Actually, with his A Lightning element affinity, Mazus would score an extra 40% so it's going to be roughly around 15000 damage. It's very doubtful that Tuta could achieve the same. Yet, they received the same score.

So yeah, while it is a lot of work for you to come up with the list (and I totally congratulate you on that), I find it to be inaccurate as it doesn't give actual usefulness of some of the characters. Good attempt though.
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Re: Suikoden 2 Character Rankings

Postby DracoFox » Wed Oct 12, 2005 4:18 pm

IczR1 wrote:[B-]

LC Chan (5.1), Wakaba (5.1)

[C-]

Shiro (3.7)


harumph thats my 3 most used chars! ><

interesting study, looks like you have spent a lot of time. killey pointed out that its all in how you use the chars, and given theres so many tricks to suikoden 2 to optimize gameplay, you are embarking on a great task indeed.

and correct me if i am wrong, but for those first handful of levels in the game, jowy pretty much owns hero in stats, with the exception of str (barely) tech (usually equal actually) luck (k who cares) and HP. jowy on the other hand Dominates hero in MAG and Mag Def. im guessing you could consider both runes equally useful, jowy clearly does more damage, but you cant complain about a perm uber healer in your party.

anyway nice job, i love it : P

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Postby IczR1 » Wed Oct 12, 2005 8:44 pm

Hix and Tuta receiving same score while it's fairly obvious that Hix is better than Tuta. I'm under impression that Tuta scored the same score because he has open WPN slot while Hix doesn't (otherwise Hix should've been way ahead with better stats). But you have to keep in mind that Exertion is indeed the best WPN Rune there is, it's not a drawback for Hix to have Exertion Rune locked in.

Okay, here's Hix vs. Tuta :o ...

average Base ATK:
- Hix = 287
- Tuta = 258

I will base this case on the 3-turns-rule, since NO enemy takes any longer than 3 turns after a certain point in the game, no boss, not even the final boss, nobody. I've tested this with a lot of characters, and it's always the same, everybody goes down way too fast ^^
Considering that fact, Exertion isn't that useful anymore:

Hix: 287 x2 (Double Beat) = 574
=> for 3 Turns: 574 x1 + 574 x1.2 + 574 x1.4
=> average damage in a 3 turn battle: 689

Tuta: 257 x2 (Double Beat) = 514, Rage/Thunder in weapon
=> damage: 514 - 771 (depending on elemental resistance)

Both Hix and Tuta have an average speed/skill stat growth, so they should get roughly the same amount of criticals and multiple hits. So in the end Tuta CAN outdamage Hix (and easily so in random battles), but loses points for being more fragile (weak DEF and HP).

You give Mazus a very low score (still same as Tuta and Hix) while it's fairly safe to say that Mazus needs to be used for his magic attack, and he's an excellent magician just like Luc. Since you'd use level 99 stats, Mazus would at most have 9/9/7/4 MP. That means 4 times of 1200 dmg to 1 enemy, and 7 times 1000 dmg to 1 enemy. That's a total of 11800 dmg in 11 turns. Actually, with his A Lightning element affinity, Mazus would score an extra 40% so it's going to be roughly around 15000 damage. It's very doubtful that Tuta could achieve the same. Yet, they received the same score.

Now that's interesting, seems i have to think over Mazus again, my math:

physical damage:
base 237 ATK x2 (Double Beat) = 474 + Weapon Slot (Rage/Thunder/whatever) bonus, average tech/speed
=> calculated average damage per turn: ~820

magic damage:
- fire: ~900 x 1.4 = ~1260 damage
- lightning: ~1200 x1.4 = ~1680 damage

I definitely underrated him :shock: , thanks for pointing it out, i will update that.


If i overlooked other mages, please feel free to mention it !
I experimented with Luc for a good while, and he is a good example of flexibility in this game. His magic is outstanding with good affinities for lots of stuff, so he can do 1400+ damage with it. However his physical attacking can keep up with that, even though he seems very weak at first glance ...

average base ATK: 159
=> 159 x2 (Double Beat) x1.5 (Fury) x1.5 (Double Strike) x1.5 (Rage/Thunder in weapon) = 1073 damage

And believe it or not, since Luc has an S rank speed value, he gets a mad amount of multiple hits in ! If you average everything out, he can deal 1400+ damage in both ways, physically and with magic.

and correct me if i am wrong, but for those first handful of levels in the game, jowy pretty much owns hero in stats, with the exception of str (barely) tech (usually equal actually) luck (k who cares) and HP. jowy on the other hand Dominates hero in MAG and Mag Def. im guessing you could consider both runes equally useful, jowy clearly does more damage, but you cant complain about a perm uber healer in your party.

At the beginning they are both equally good (Riou is a bit better physically at the start while Jowy casts better). But in the end Riou has a WAY higher base ATK with 366 (Jowy has 309). Both are equally good in speed and tech (A rank), but Riou benefits more out of that in the end. I based Jowy's ranking on the fact that you can cheat him into your party at every point in the game, so yeah ^^

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Postby DracoFox » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:14 pm

ive never cheated with the jowy trick, but every time i do matilda glitch i allow him to live ( i kill nanami and hero in every battle so i dont have to play with level 40 chars the whole game.) i havent let riou live in a long time, but i remember comparing stats even then, that jowy was noticably better. maybe jowy's random stat growths did him well that playthrough. i just get real mad when jowy levels up, gets the 4 in MGC TEC SPD MDEF and then hero will get a 4 in TEC or LUK and 2 in DEF >< i usually reset sometimes out of frustration : P


and shouldnt shiro get bonus points, for being god's gift to killing so early in the game with a double beat rune :lol:

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Postby Red Killey » Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:42 am

I understand that Hix and Tuta would deal roughly similar damage, but at the same time, you kind of accidentally ignored other dimensions. Hix has a quite useful unite with Tengaar, and Hix definitely have higher defense than Tuta. I just browsed your ranking thingy, and Hix mainly have all B's while Tuta had a few C's and even D if I'm not mistaken.

Going back to my minor critisism, I think the rank should take more stab at the character usefulness (in their own ways) than simply based on physical attack. Unless of course you want the rank to simply for that sole reason (based on physical attack).

As for your Luc, yes he could deal that kind of damage, but his low DEF and HP made it quite a gamble to attach Double Strike Rune on him. So while I undestand your point, I think the characters should be ranked based on the role they would normally play (e.g.: mages being mages, tanks being tanks, etc) and taking into consideration of how the characters used in conjunction with other characters (with unite attacks).

I've mentioned this somewhere before about Bolgan. He might be crap by himself, but he's a part of the two strongest unites. Flash Attack (with Gantetsu and LC Chan) for the strongest unite to all enemies, and Servant Attack (with Sierra and Bob) for the strongest unite to single enemy. This could also work with Bob being attached by Violence Rune. Servant Attack would drain some of Bob's HP which could trigger the violent status over and over again.

Then the whole thing of high SPD, TECH, LUCK. I personally think that it's a bit overrated because my favorite character is Eilie, and her stats are all mediocre. But you and I both know (because you also use her in your party) that she got extra attacks very often. On the other hand, Genshu, the one with the same stats as Eilie, seem to get extra attacks very rarely.

So while yes SPD, TECH, LUCK matter, I somehow think that there's a "hidden" element that also played a part in determining all that. Or an easy way to prove it is with Riou having high stats in all 3 areas, but yet, not really all *THAT* mighty with lots of critical attacks and multiple extra hits.
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Postby DracoFox » Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:40 am

Red Killey wrote:Riou having high stats in all 3 areas, but yet, not really all *THAT* mighty with lots of critical attacks and multiple extra hits.


since when? my riou has been doing double hits as early as level 15, and more frequently than most until mid-end game chars get mid-end game gear. even then you're hard pressed to find someone noticeably better. maybe cause my dude has winged boots so early, that while your stats are so low, an increase of 10 is a big deal?

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Postby RVallant » Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:00 am

If I could interject something... Just a suggestion, but maybe a positioning column there to show where each character can fight (i.e. Riou M)

I'm not dissing or anything, I was looking it over and I think you've done a hell of a job but I thought if you made this so people can consider the ranks of the characters in battle so they can make a party of the best fighters (for example) then it would be helpful to show a positioning of where they can fight so some inexperienced players and people who can't remember everyone's positioning (me!!!) doesn't end up choosing six Short range fighters out of that list.

Just a thought, good work though =)

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Postby Kranach » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:06 pm

what is the jowy trick??? can it be done in the game without a cheatin device???

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Postby DracoFox » Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:22 pm

you can gameshark jowy into your game (with a gameshark). ive never done it, but a lot have. dont think it causes many glitches either.

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Postby IczR1 » Fri Oct 14, 2005 12:28 am

I understand that Hix and Tuta would deal roughly similar damage, but at the same time, you kind of accidentally ignored other dimensions. Hix has a quite useful unite with Tengaar, and Hix definitely have higher defense than Tuta. I just browsed your ranking thingy, and Hix mainly have all B's while Tuta had a few C's and even D if I'm not mistaken.

Hey i DID gave Tuta a penalty for being weak with DEF and HP ^^
About the unite: it was never really useful to me. It only multiplies damage x2, which Hix could do on his own with a simple double beat attached PLUS the chance of scoring multiple/critical hits. Even if you give him a fury rune to boost the damage of the unite, it still holds Tengaar back, she alone can deal more damage than the whole unite with Hix. And didn't the unite also damages Hix ? ^^

I really like Hix as a character, and believe me i tried making him good in this game (i had him in my team for quite some time in Suikoden 1), but gameplaywise he's too limited.


Going back to my minor critisism, I think the rank should take more stab at the character usefulness (in their own ways) than simply based on physical attack. Unless of course you want the rank to simply for that sole reason (based on physical attack).

As for your Luc, yes he could deal that kind of damage, but his low DEF and HP made it quite a gamble to attach Double Strike Rune on him. So while I undestand your point, I think the characters should be ranked based on the role they would normally play (e.g.: mages being mages, tanks being tanks, etc) and taking into consideration of how the characters used in conjunction with other characters (with unite attacks).

I don't wanna rank the characters just based on their physical attack when they can do better otherwise (like Mazus), and if there are things to correct i will definitely do so. Physical attack is just a good way to begin a ranking with, ESPECIALLY in Suikoden 2 since physical attack IS that powerful and overshadows a lot of other options in dealing damage for like 90% of the characters ^^
I think mages have a hard time competing in this game since the damage and MP are fixed and cannot be multplied in any other way . A character with good defense isn't even that important too, and most of the tank characters have their drawbacks that limit them (eg. Oulan, i REALLY like her as a character and used her an awful lot, but she gets overshadowed pretty quickly, it's hard to admit but it's true ;/).
Unites aren't that hot either in most cases. Yes it can make a weak character better but it also holds back better characters that may be involved. Since unites ignore things like multiple/critical hits and weapon runes like rage/thunder or even fire/lightning, most characters can do better if you don't unite them.


I've mentioned this somewhere before about Bolgan. He might be crap by himself, but he's a part of the two strongest unites. Flash Attack (with Gantetsu and LC Chan) for the strongest unite to all enemies, and Servant Attack (with Sierra and Bob) for the strongest unite to single enemy. This could also work with Bob being attached by Violence Rune. Servant Attack would drain some of Bob's HP which could trigger the violent status over and over again.

Flash attack is damage x1.5 vs. all enemies but also hurts the allies for half of the damage, right ? Doesn't sound like a fair deal to me ^^ Although it IS pretty damaging, you don't really need it plus it hurts too much. Time for math ! ...

Flash Attack = (LC Chan ATK + Gantetsu ATK + Bolgan ATK) x1.5 vs all enemies, (LC Chan ATK + Gantetsu ATK + Bolgan ATK) x0.5 vs. allies
=> without fury runes: (273 + 237 + 337) x1.5 = 847 x 1.5 = 1271 DMG vs. enemies, but 424 DMG vs. allies
More realistically will be this case: LC Chan has a fury rune and Gantetsu fury and maybe double strike
=> (410 + 533 + 337) x1.5 = 1280 x 1.5 = 1920 DMG vs. enemies, but 640 DMG vs. allies

Ouch O_o this will pretty much kill anything, but will also bring half of the cast into red life. Dunno if i wanna use that ;P LC Chan can do ~1200 damage, Gantetsu ~1900 on his own and Bolgan maybe ~700, that adds up to ~3900 damage vs multiple targets without hurting anybody, plus you also have 3 other characters.

Servant attack is damage x4 vs. 1 enemy, and Bob + Bolgan get damaged while Sierra gets healed ... sounds pretty good so far :]

Servant attack = (Sierra ATK + Bob ATK + Bolgan ATK) x4 (i ignore the hurt/heal thing for this one, yeah i'm lazy ;P)
=> without fury runes: (272 + 302 + 337) x4 = 911 x4 = 3644 damage
More realistically will be this case: Sierra has a fury rune and Bob either fury or a not yet triggered violence rune
=> (408 + 302/453 + 337) x4 = 1047/1198 x4 = 4188/4792 damage
Now let's go to the max: Sierra has fury and double strike and Bob a triggered violence status
=> (612 + 1510 + 337) x4 = 2459 x4 = 9836 damage

Now THAT's overkill ^^ it's a potential boss killer, so i think we can ignore that the battle will even last 2 turns, heh. That said, a triggered violence for Bob is impressive but you won't need it i guess. So this unite can really let Bolgan shine in boss battles, while it's totally unnecessary in random battles because it's 1 target only + involves 3 characters and also hurting 2 of them. If you consider that the calculated average value for damage a character can deal in Suikoden 2 is ~1300 damage, a totally average party can deal ~7800 damage. So in order to make a unite that involves 3 characters useful in a party like that, it has to deal more damage than the average value of ~3800. And Servant attack does just that, but not THAT much more, really. You decide if it's worth it to use Bolgan for that, but i really should give him some bonus points for this one (he still sucks otherwise and wouldn't work in another party though, heh).

And about Bob: he CAN kick some ass, but the fact that he wastes a complete first turn for going into werewolf status cuts his damage to half for the first two turns, and if he doesn't transform his damage potential is just about average and gets outclassed.

Bob in a 2-turn-battle: 302 x 1.5 (Fury) x2 (Werewolf) x1.5 (Thunder/Rage) = max. 1359 damage + good chance for multiple/critical hit (since he gets solid stat boosts).

I think i should give him more credit for his werewolf stat boost and update his score.


Then the whole thing of high SPD, TECH, LUCK. I personally think that it's a bit overrated because my favorite character is Eilie, and her stats are all mediocre. But you and I both know (because you also use her in your party) that she got extra attacks very often. On the other hand, Genshu, the one with the same stats as Eilie, seem to get extra attacks very rarely.

So while yes SPD, TECH, LUCK matter, I somehow think that there's a "hidden" element that also played a part in determining all that. Or an easy way to prove it is with Riou having high stats in all 3 areas, but yet, not really all *THAT* mighty with lots of critical attacks and multiple extra hits.

since when? my riou has been doing double hits as early as level 15, and more frequently than most until mid-end game chars get mid-end game gear. even then you're hard pressed to find someone noticeably better. maybe cause my dude has winged boots so early, that while your stats are so low, an increase of 10 is a big deal?

Because Eilie is my fav i equipped her with all the finest stuff to make her better, and i think you did the same ^^ i HAD to make her attack before the Hero because that bastard always got so many multiples and criticals that Eilie wouldn't even come to attack (if i wouldn't have boosted her speed she would have attacked after the Hero, Ayda and Futch), it's true. In terms of multiple attacking Eilie wasn't able to compete with Ayda and the Hero naturally in my safe, who would have run the battles by themselves for like 70% of the time.

And yeah, i think even a stat boost of 10 in speed makes a noticable difference, winged boots are awesome early in the game ;] and i don't know if there is a "hidden stat", but with every character i tried to improve with speed and tech boosts i was able to get a noticably better rate, no real exceptions.


If I could interject something... Just a suggestion, but maybe a positioning column there to show where each character can fight (i.e. Riou M)

NP, i will do that in the next update :]

Btw, small question: are ALL the squirrels L range and Gadget and Chuchara S range ? Too lazy to boot my safes now ^^

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Postby Red Killey » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:30 am

If I'm not mistaken, the Flash Attack damaging allies could be nullified by equipping sunglasses (obtained from climbing game) to the other characters. But I'm not too sure on this, so don't take it for granted yet.

As for unite removing the chance to get critical and multiple hits, I understand that point, but at the same time, you can never guarantee that you receive critical and multiple hits either just because of the stats whereas unite attack is pretty much a guaranteed high damage hit.

And for Servant Attack, of course you shouldn't use that for random battles. Random battles would mostly dealt with either Auto command or Unite that attack all enemies to wipe them out ASAP. So again, if your party consist of Riou, Gantetsu, LC Chan, Bolgan, Bob, and Sierra, you can pretty much use Flash Attack to beat most, if not all, random battles in 1 turn while killing bosses quite quickly in 1-2 turns with Servant Attack. Keep in mind that if Servant Attack doesn't kill the boss in 1 hit, LC Chan, Gantetsu, and Riou could still definitely attack the boss that could result in 1 turn victory.

So yeah, I guess there are X Factors that could make certain weak characters better when used properly with other characters or certain roles.

All squirrels are L range, Chuchara is S if I'm not mistaken, Gadget is definitely M range.
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Postby highwind44029 » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:38 am

Gadget is M-ranged, but he's better off in the front row.

Red Killey wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the Flash Attack damaging allies could be nullified by equipping sunglasses (obtained from climbing game) to the other characters. But I'm not too sure on this, so don't take it for granted yet.

That's right. I tested it myself.

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Postby son_michael » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:50 am

correct me if im wrong but dosen't unite attacks always happen before any individual attacks?

if so then you can do the high power unties and just have your second fastest character go right after the unite and heal all the damage you just took

dosen't that make sense?

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Postby highwind44029 » Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:13 am

The unite attack will depend upon the participant with the highest SPD. In the Flash Attack's case, it depends on L.C. Chan's SPD.

The Flash Attack is only for normal combat anyway, so equip the Sunglasses while running through the dungeon, then de-equip and replace with the best equipment before facing the boss.


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