[Mods] Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

If you are stuck in the Dunan Unification Wars; or wish for more details on the gameplay systems, this is the place.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by ninjaluc79 »

Any latest versions of this mod? I kinda like to try it, but seeing how magic seemed to get nerfed I am a bit hesitant to use a full magic or mixed physical/magic teams for this one. It's also interesting how the level ranges for each part of the game will change throughout a single playthrough. Like, wow, we fight Luca at level 60+ and we will get to endgame at around 90, all without using any sort of leveling tricks like in the original game? How rad is that for Suikoden?

EDIT: Almost everyone is amazing now, it's going to be even harder for me to pick my party members for any part of the game! I like how Riou lives off Nakama Power now and how you will have to consider picking the forced characters now instead of straight up ignoring them like in the original.
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psychedelist
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by psychedelist »

Still working on an update with many balance improvements, but the established physical vs magic correlation is gonna stay the same. I feel magic is still rather overpowered than not, even with the nerfs, like it's always the best way go when you know you don't need the durability to win a very long fight or many small fights w/o refreshing. But it's so hard to get the relationship ideal.
dune
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by dune »

psychedelist wrote: Sun May 31, 2020 2:50 am Still working on an update with many balance improvements, but the established physical vs magic correlation is gonna stay the same. I feel magic is still rather overpowered than not, even with the nerfs, like it's always the best way go when you know you don't need the durability to win a very long fight or many small fights w/o refreshing. But it's so hard to get the relationship ideal.
Do you suggest waiting for you to finish this update or start playing now? I'll probably only be playing Suikoden 2 Rebalanced once in the coming period.

Also, about the bytes in regards to character recruitment; what was that all about? I didn't really follow; are the codes you provided used to revert your earlier-recruitment changes?

Add in regards to Hoi, why not change his dialogue a little?
psychedelist
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by psychedelist »

There's a number of balance issues and even a minor bug in the current version, I'm trying to make things better, so from my point of view it'd be better to wait, but i need about 2-3 more weeks.

The recruitment data isn't needed if you're just going to play the mod. It would be needed if you (like faospark) wanted to have just my recruitment changes in the original game, and none of the other changes.

The Hoi dialog is still almost perfectly fine, just a little extra amusing in some way. I would have to rewrite a decent chunk of it, but it's not really needed. I almost never changed any dialogs, unless there was a really strong reason for it.
dune
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by dune »

Thanks for the fast answer! I'll be patient and keeping an eye on this thread.

I don't know whether or not Konami is ok with these kind of mods/hacks being publicly shared, but your rebalance deserves a lot more public attention. Let me know if I can help you generate more online attention for it (if that is something you want).
Dyne
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by Dyne »

I registered on these boards just to say thank you for this mod. I've been waiting 10 years for a good rebalance fix for this game!

I dont know if it helps, but some info on how I'm playing -- I'm using the Beetle HW core in Retroarch. I used ECCR to fix the bad sectors as you suggested in your text doc (thank you!). I have not had any problems; Kindness Drops doesn't make any loud/weird sounds and I haven't gotten any crashes from using magic a lot. Everything was running perfectly until I just got to SD Sword and the game crashed for the first time when I tried using Charm Arrow, and sometimes when I use the Family unite. Not sure if that is useful info for you, but there it is.

Thanks again for this mod!
psychedelist
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by psychedelist »

dune wrote: Thanks for the fast answer! I'll be patient and keeping an eye on this thread.

I don't know whether or not Konami is ok with these kind of mods/hacks being publicly shared, but your rebalance deserves a lot more public attention. Let me know if I can help you generate more online attention for it (if that is something you want).
Thanks, it's fine as is, and it's good enough to see mostly positive feedback here and from streamers. I think that this forum comes up in top searches of anything suikoden related, so people who would be interested in playing this are probably going to find it.
Dyne wrote: I registered on these boards just to say thank you for this mod. I've been waiting 10 years for a good rebalance fix for this game!

I dont know if it helps, but some info on how I'm playing -- I'm using the Beetle HW core in Retroarch. I used ECCR to fix the bad sectors as you suggested in your text doc (thank you!). I have not had any problems; Kindness Drops doesn't make any loud/weird sounds and I haven't gotten any crashes from using magic a lot. Everything was running perfectly until I just got to SD Sword and the game crashed for the first time when I tried using Charm Arrow, and sometimes when I use the Family unite. Not sure if that is useful info for you, but there it is.

Thanks again for this mod!
Thanks, glad to hear the bad sectors fix works. Yeah, S.D.Sword fight crashes the game very often, i just had a look into it again, and... it's indeed caused by a certain mod change, apologies to everyone who had problems with this boss. Actually a number of other boss magic attacks should be affected by this as well, it seems lucky that only the sword boss is causing crashes. I'm close to finishing a general update (biggest yet since release), but if anyone playing the mod wants to apply the S.D.Sword fix manually, you can edit the game data in a hex editor like following:
1. Search for two instances of this byte sequence:
CC E7 94 36 0B 53 03 0C 21 28 00 02 32 63 46 2C 1A 0A C7 92 80 10 11 00 21 10 A2 03 10 00 50 8C 21 20 C0 02
and replace it with this
0B 53 03 0C CC E7 94 36 32 63 46 2C 1A 0A C7 92 80 10 11 00 21 10 A2 03 10 00 50 8C 21 20 C0 02 21 28 00 02

2. Starting from the end of those two instances, going 112 bytes forward, find this DB FF 40 14
replace with DA FF 40 14 (note, this step must be done for both of the instances from step #1, meaning two replacements)

Dyne, if you do this, you may need to run the ECC correction again. Otherwise, if you stay with the current version, you can try getting through the boss with savestates on each turn, or wait 1 week at most, hopefully i'll get the update out no later than that.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by ninjaluc79 »

Cleared the Mist Monster with everyone at level 10. I could have actually done it at only 7 or 8 but I wanted to get Eilie's L2 MP to make beating Mist much easier, and I won't say no to more MP on a very valuable AoE spell.

At this point of the game it seems to me that AoE magic damage and healing are far more important in this mod than in the original. The start of my playthrough was rough because you can't rely on the Riou/Jowy unite anymore, the damage rolls were all over the place (OHKOs were very common at lower levels, damage rolls go up to 28, making DEF less useful than HP in the early game), and Flaming Arrows scrolls as the only reliable source of AoE damage were kinda scarce until getting the circus trio.

I read in your notes that you tried to make minimum damage on player characters based on HP but it seems impossible without byte shifts or something like that. IDK if it's just RNG but how were you able to make high DEF characters like Bolgan take higher damage rolls than lower DEF ones like Eilie or Rina?

IIRC the minimum damage values in the original were 1-3 but you changed it to 8-20, which can be a problem if early game mobs crit, which means lower level chars can get OHKO'd by an unlucky crit. Maybe tone it down to something like 4-10 so enemy crits don't hurt as much early game?

In the original game I literally didn't have to grind to clear the story which was a welcome change for me when I first played it coming from a grindy RPG like FF7, but I do admit I wished S1 and S2 were a bit harder. And here we are, I do have to grind for levels now but at least it's not the same soul crushing grind for levels and materia FF7 had.

P.S. I like how Riou is now closer to an actual child soldier than the overpowered all-rounder he was in the original. I kinda hated how he was considered the least cool out of the heroes and the Tenkais outside of Thomas just because he wields a non-offensive True Rune unlike everyone else except the above mentioned Thomas and Frey, the latter of whom also wielded a supportive TR and yet gets a pass because he's freaking royalty while Riou wasn't.

EDIT: I think buffing the 0-1 slot characters, nerfing the 2-3 slotters, and denying access to multiple Double Beat and Double Strike runes were good ideas. The 0-1 slotters cannot hope to compete with 2-3 slotters in the original when the latters can just walk into battle with DB/DS/Fury runes on them, and the formers really need the raw stat buffs to compete even if the latters cannot abuse the DB/DS/Fury combo as much as before since they can just equip other runes for utility instead.
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psychedelist
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by psychedelist »

Right, the 8-20 minimum damage change scales badly at the start of the game, sorry for that. Bolgan may randomly take more damage than Rina from the same attack because damage randomization was also increased in similar way - from 1-3 to 8-20, which is too only an issue at the start of the game. But personally i don't mind occasional random one hit kills, as they only happen before you get first levels in the area. Generally, grind isn't needed if you don't run away from battles too much (except for Luca where exp grind is needed for well known reasons), but you do need Antitoxin for early game bosses. Later in the game, spending a lot of time on party preparations and trading will be needed, which can be considered "grind" in some way.
Dyne
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by Dyne »

Definitely agree that the beginning could be smoother. I kinda leaned on save states a bit, which i hate doing. What if you raised the starting HP of every character by like 20? That would tone down the OHKO's in the beginning and wouldnt matter much by mid-game. Having the difficulty ramp up instead of smack you in the face from the start is often good game design anyway. Sorry if you arent looking for suggestions, by the way. Just excited to see this mod get even better!
psychedelist
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by psychedelist »

I am looking for suggestion, but for me one hit kills in Sparrow Pass almost never happened after getting first couple level ups, which you can get easily with Eilie's Fire. On the other hand, it seems that the only thing the increased damage randomization does for people is early game frustration, while not adding much of anything for the rest of the game. The increased minimal damage will have to stay however, i just hate seeing 1-3 damage once your def is high enough.
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by ninjaluc79 »

Is there any way to inflate enemy stats separately? Like, pumping up only their ATK and HP. I recall seeing a hard mod inflate enemy stats before and it was so ridiculous that physicals were rendered useless unless you have access to the DB/DS/Fury combo and magic was pretty much the only way to clear it. I am pretty sure that's not what you have in mind.

If inflating enemy stats even more is not an option, maybe tone down the minimum damage rolls to something like 4-10 and make late game enemies deal enough damage that even the highest DEF characters can't just tank their way through.
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psychedelist
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by psychedelist »

Is there something that made you think that enemies aren't configured individually? I'm confused because it is already the case. In what way is the increased minimum damage a problem? The increased total damage randomization was the source of one hit kills, i'm reducing that to 0-10 for the next version, but it's a separate thing from the minimum damage.

Edit:
Updated the version to 1.06. To anyone already playing, i highly recommend updating to it as it fixes a bug that could cause problems on some boss fights, most notably it crashes the game a lot on S.D.Sword fight. All the character changes won't take effect w/o starting a new game though. Don't forget that you need to apply the patch over the clean bugfixed game, not over your current game that was already patched by a previous mod patch version.

You could call the new version "The Luc Update" or "the update that killed Luc", as that guy finally went from a gamebreaking superpower to being barely better than anyone else, hopefully. Generally, most bosses became harder as well. Personally i prefer spending a lot of time on party management and preparations and then still have a serious challenge, but to each their own; 1st page of this thread has a link to an editor which can help to drop enemy stats if one finds the game to be too hard.

There are a lot of the other changes besides those, the bottom of the main document has a changelog.
Dyne
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by Dyne »

A lot of these changes look really cool, Psychedelist. Thanks for all the work you're putting into this!
Rizen
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Re: Suikoden II - Rebalanced [hard mod]

Post by Rizen »

ive uploaded some boss fights to YT. will try and add more...WIll be a SPOILER if you press the link and want to play this version.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2d9JH9_hgE --- Lucia 3rd time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4DhWjjzD6g --- Seed & Culgan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H8MvKYEm70 --- Beast Rune
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