My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

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healme
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My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby healme » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:14 am

Hello all
(First of all English isn’t my first language, so please excuse any mistakes)

For me Suikoden 2 is like first love that never die, that's why i always have the urge to play it every year.
My problem is Suikoden 2 gameplay too easy, i guess the reason is to accommodate speed run/clive quest (easy boss/no grind, etc)

Thats why in the last year i am modding the data in Suikoden 2, at first it good but then its back to square one. i guess am suck at making the balance right, i mean whats the point making the boss harder yet the char is stronger too lol. So thats why i need some input how to make this game fun yet still challenging.

This is list some of my mod /thing that i can edit
1) Character Mod, basically changing the stat growth rate, rune slot open, permanent rune/equipment, weapon growth. But like i said before, i am bad at making balance so i am just playing favorite here lol (ex: Rina have best rune affinite ; Tengaar, Ayda have 3 rune slot ; etc)

2) Equipment and item Mod, too many too list here, i am editing around 30 equipment, some of them is give minor bonus (gauntlet have +3 str), reduced def (ring only have 5 def), and completely new eq (full plate become mirror plate that give 50 mdef). For item i mod mega medicine to cure unconcious.

3) Rune Mod, Suikoden 2 have too many useless rune, i edit rune like titan and lion to deal 200% damage. Do you guys know there are empty slot between Dryad - Trick, Rabid Fang - Fortune, yeah you can make new rune there, i dont know how the effect work, but you can combine some spell in Suikoden 2.

4) Monster Mod, i give the boss extra HP, some have extra/double stat. I edit the monster around L'Renouille to drop stat stone.

5) War Unit Battle Mod, what a time waste, after editing many Stat i found out that almost all the War is just scripted, so i just make it easier (give unit better stat and skill).

well thats all i can remember, maybe i'll add later.

Oh yeah This is the video sample of boss fight, this is (imho) how boss should act. Slaughter your "auto build"
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByExU6 ... sp=sharing
(once again sorry for the quality, just want to upload fast)

and this is some of the screenshot.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByExU ... Gw3X3RkeFU

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WichitaQ
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby WichitaQ » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:43 am

My man Sheena, kicks butt even when everyone else fails!

Generally a nice idea though, I've always wanted a more challenging Suikoden. Though I probably wouldn't go as far, or as hard as you have.

I'd probably just give a 50% bonus to HP to nearly all mobs and bosses, and 25% increased damage done by all mobs and bosses, play it once like that, and then have an even heavier mod with 100% HP bonus, 50% damage bonus and a flat out 10% higher DEF/MDEF for all mobs and bosses.

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ninjaluc79
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sat Feb 04, 2017 10:51 pm

@WichitaQ

If it's balancing you want, I can help you out with it, and you won't have to play favorites for it. I am currently analyzing each and every character at the moment and so far, the game is easy to beat with some characters, but difficult with others. But with the right equipment setups, everyone can be usable, even the normally weak and useless doctor-in-training Tuta (yes, I actually used him once, though he absolutely needs to be at 99 to be of actual use).

- Physical attack runes (*Double-Beat, *Double-Strike, *Fury, etc.) cannot be attached to the Head rune slot; they can only be attached to either the Right Hand or the Left Hand.

- Only the dedicated magicians (Luc, Rina, Tengaar, Millie, and all the other ranged magicians) can have a total of up to 3 free rune slots, the rest can only have up to 2 free rune slots, all these depending on the characters themselves, of course.

- If at all possible, rune slot unlocking should be tied to the MAG stat instead of Level, like in Suikoden 4, so that characters like Sheena, Killey, and Hai Yo can never out-damage the dedicated magicians and the naturally strong one-slot fighters like Georg, Humphrey, and Pesmerga, therefore making the latter group useless for dealing damage. Otherwise, here is a sample list we can make use of to determine at what maximum level should all characters unlock their 2nd and 3rd rune slots:

MAG stats 00 (~55/~70 at 60/99) and 01 (~70/~90 at 60/99) = no additional free rune slots
MAG stat 02 (~85/~110 at 60/99) = 2nd free rune slot at Level 83 or lower
MAG stat 03 (~105/~125 at 60/99) = 2nd free rune slot at Level 55 or lower
MAG stat 04 (~125/~150 at 60/99) = 2nd free rune slot at Level 44 or lower
MAG stat 05 (~145/~170 at 60/99) = 2nd free rune slot at Level 37 or lower
MAG stat 06 (~160/~185 at 60/99) = 2nd free rune slot at Level 32 or lower, 3rd free rune slot at Level 59 or lower
MAG stat 07 (~180/~215 at 60/99) = 2nd free rune slot at Level 27 or lower, 3rd free rune slot at Level 52 or lower
MAG stat 08 (~200/~235 at 60/99) = 2nd free rune slot at Level 22 or lower, 3rd free rune slot at Level 45 or lower

-- All these are given out on a case-to-case basis for each character.

- One free rune slot each for Bolgan (01 MAG, *Fire Breath), Shin (03 MAG, *Spider Slay), and Genshu (03 MAG, *Swallow), allowing them access to one of DB, DS, or Fury; thereby increasing their usefulness but still allowing players to pick whoever they want on their parties. We might need to adjust Bolgan's MAG stat growth rate from 01 to 03, and give him a C affinity to Fire and D or E affinities to Lightning, Wind, and Earth to accommodate for this change.

- I'll recommend some stat growth rate changes, mostly HP:

-- All melee fighters cannot have the same or lower HP growth rate as the ranged magicians. The only real exception is Lo Wen, a ranged fighter with 05 HP, simply because she is designed that way. With these in mind, either Hix's HP shall be changed from 04 (~550/~750 at 60/99) to 05 (~625/~825 at 60/99) OR Tengaar's HP shall be changed from 04 (~550/~750 at 60/99) to 03 (~500/~700 at 99) so that melee fighter Hix will always have higher HP than ranged magician Tengaar (since they have the same HP growth of 04 in vanilla Suikoden II, Tengaar can have potentially higher HP than Hix).

-- Tuta's HP from 00 (~325/~500 at 60/99) to 03 (~500/~700 at 99). Human characters should never have lower HP growth rates than the freaking squirrels!

-- Dedicated magicians (i.e. characters originally designed solely as magicians and nothing else) can never have an HP growth stat higher than 03 (~500/~700 at 99) and it can never be higher than mage knights, ranged magicians, or pure fighters. With these in mind, Luc's HP shall be changed from 03 (~500/~700 at 99) to 02 (~425/~625 at 99), Mazus' HP from 04 (~550/~750 at 99) to 03 (~500/~700 at 99).

- As for rune affinities, maybe some corrections will suffice:

-- Miklotov and Camus' respective Wind and Fire affinities should be switched. Miklotov should have a B in Wind and C in Fire, while Camus should have a C in Wind and B in Fire.

-- I really don't think Rina's affinities should be bumped up to all A's, or even at all. Most people already use her as their primary mage other than Luc even with her average affinities anyway. But if we really want Rina to make good use of *Blue Gate the way she is apparently designed, maybe bump up at least just her Fire and Lightning affinities to B and then her Water affinity to A. If we may recall, *Blue Gate's non-elemental spells use the caster's Water affinity. Rina's Water affinity of B alone is good enough evidence that she is designed to be good at *Blue Gate.

-- Anyone else thinks Millie's Water affinity should be bumped up to at least C (from E), as a call back to the then-famous urban legend that she is good at *Blue Gate?

-- I think there should be more characters with A affinities to Earth other than Luc and Tomo. They necessarily don't have to be dedicated magicians, they can even be ranged fighters and mage knights with Earth motifs like the rangers Kinnison (originally C) and Ayda (originally B) and the beastmaster Badeaux. Even Sheena is a good candidate for an Earth affinity of A as he originally comes with an *Earth when he first joins the army, and plus his mom Eileen is a pretty powerful Earth mage herself, too. With all that, plus the proposal to remove his head rune slot, the player will now have to think harder on whether to make him a pure damage dealer like how most people use him or to make him a truly hybrid mage knight a la Flik.

-- As mentioned above, I think Sheena's affinities should be bumped up. Maybe A or B affinities in Fire (he already has a B affinity to it in vanilla Suikoden II), Lightning (recall that he originally had a *Lightning attached to him in Suikoden I), and Earth (remember that his mom is a powerful Earth mage) will do.

-- The affinity bonuses are actually kind of meh. I mean, come on, only +40% base damage at A affinity? How about these?

A affinity = +100% (or 2x) base damage
B affinity = +50% (or 1.5x) base damage
C affinity = normal damage
D affinity = -50% (or x0.5) base damage
E affinity = +50% (or 1.5x) base damage


-- With these affinity ratings, players will be encouraged to use low-MAG high-affinity characters more instead of just picking high-MAG characters like Luc, Rina, Mazus, Flik, etc. all the time. I actually tried an all-female party with A-affinity characters in all but one element (no females have a Resurrection affinity of A) and MAN it was more fun than just using Luc or Rina! In case you're curious:

-- Riou, of course (*Flowing / *Bright Shield / *Resurrection, B in Resurrection)
-- Nina (*Rage, A in Fire)
-- Sierra (*Darkness / *Thunder, A in Darkness and Lightning)
-- Tomo (*Mother Earth / *Rage, the only character other than Luc with an Earth affinity of A)
-- Meg (*Cyclone, A in Wind and Lightning)
-- Yoshino (*Flowing / *Resurrection; A in Water, B in everything else [!])

- Fixed armor bonuses, of course. This gives a massive boost for the melee fighters as they won't get Panicked by the Beast Rune's Left Leg as often with the Earth Armor fixed, so they can just whack the Beast Rune all day when the mages are on Panic mode. In addition, it gives the mages more DEF as they will have to replace the Master Robe with a Robe of Mist, thereby freeing up a free rune slot for an extra Water Amulet for additional magic repel or for a usable item to cure Panic (Chili Pasta) or revive people (Flaming Sea) vs the Beast Rune.

Anything else you might to ask, please ask away! I am currently experimenting on various party configurations (mostly balanced melee/magic or magic-heavy parties, I still don't have enough confidence to play melee-heavy parties), so please give me more party suggestions to test if you are interested!

healme
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby healme » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:56 am

what a great and detailed idea ninjaluc79, now the problem is to implement it .

Yeah we can change some of those (everyone stat growth, rune affinities, rune slot unlocking level, permanent rune/equipment slot) easily. No need to patch the cd because everything stored in memory card.

Physical attack runes (*Double-Beat, *Double-Strike, *Fury, etc.) cannot be attached to the Head rune slot; they can only be attached to either the Right Hand or the Left Hand.

You mean like how Draining rune can only be attached to RH right?
We can edit it too, but this is a bit tricky because you need to patch the cd, i think there are around 60 line that need to be edited for each rune.
PSOGL2_001.jpg


-- The affinity bonuses are actually kind of meh. I mean, come on, only +40% base damage at A affinity? How about these?

A affinity = +100% (or 2x) base damage
B affinity = +50% (or 1.5x) base damage
C affinity = normal damage
D affinity = -50% (or x0.5) base damage
E affinity = +50% (or 1.5x) base damage

i dont know how to edit these, maybe it stored in game engine/logic.
btw isnt a bit overpowered, 2x damage mean Sierra can deal 2400+2000+2000 in 3 turn with just 100 MAG.

- I'll recommend some stat growth rate changes, mostly HP:

-- All melee fighters cannot have the same or lower HP growth rate as the ranged magicians. The only real exception is Lo Wen, a ranged fighter with 05 HP, simply because she is designed that way. With these in mind, either Hix's HP shall be changed from 04 (~550/~750 at 60/99) to 05 (~625/~825 at 60/99) OR Tengaar's HP shall be changed from 04 (~550/~750 at 60/99) to 03 (~500/~700 at 99) so that melee fighter Hix will always have higher HP than ranged magician Tengaar (since they have the same HP growth of 04 in vanilla Suikoden II, Tengaar can have potentially higher HP than Hix).

-- Tuta's HP from 00 (~325/~500 at 60/99) to 03 (~500/~700 at 99). Human characters should never have lower HP growth rates than the freaking squirrels!

-- Dedicated magicians (i.e. characters originally designed solely as magicians and nothing else) can never have an HP growth stat higher than 03 (~500/~700 at 99) and it can never be higher than mage knights, ranged magicians, or pure fighters. With these in mind, Luc's HP shall be changed from 03 (~500/~700 at 99) to 02 (~425/~625 at 99), Mazus' HP from 04 (~550/~750 at 99) to 03 (~500/~700 at 99).


You know there are 2 unused stat growth (B and C hex) that get better at level 60-99. So i actually think maybe Konami have a plan to make some "late bloomer" character, i mean we already have Viktor who's "early peaker" (A hex in stat growth).
So what do you think? maybe a char like meg, millie, bolgan, tuta should have this stat growth instead.
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ninjaluc79
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:22 am

healme wrote: We can edit it too, but this is a bit tricky because you need to patch the cd, i think there are around 60 line that need to be edited for each rune.
PSOGL2_001.jpg


Oh. I guess you guys can make it so that *Double-Beat can only be attached to the right hand in case rune slot locks only work on one slot?

i dont know how to edit these, maybe it stored in game engine/logic.
btw isnt a bit overpowered, 2x damage mean Sierra can deal 2400+2000+2000 in 3 turn with just 100 MAG.


Then maybe the base damage can be tweaked instead while leaving the affinity ratings untouched? Like these:

*Lightning
Angry Blow - 100 dmg to 1 E
Thunder Runner - 200 dmg to 1 column (instead of 100)
Bolt of Wrath - 600 dmg to 1 E
Thor Shot - 1000 dmg to 1 E

*Thunder
Thunder Runner - 200 dmg to 1 column (instead of 100)
Bolt of Wrath - 600 dmg to 1 E
Thor Shot - 1000 dmg to 1 E
Thunder Storm - 1500 dmg to 1 E (instead of 1200)

*Resurrection
Scolding - 100 dmg to 1 E (instead of a measly 30)
Yell - Revive ally at 25% HP
Charm Arrow - 400 dmg to all Es
Scream - Heals 400 HP to all allies (instead of 300)

*Wind
Wind of Sleep - Sleep to 1 row (set chance to [60 + MAG / 10] %)
Healing Wind - Fully heals 1 ally
The Shredding - 500 dmg to all Es (instead of 450)
Storm Warning - User only, Reflect Magic 1 time

*Cyclone
Healing Wind - Fully heals 1 ally
The Shredding - 500 dmg to all Es (instead of 450)
Storm Warning - User only, Reflect Magic 1 time
Shining Wind - 700 dmg to all Es (instead of 500)

*Darkness
Finger of Death - Instant Death to 1 E (100 dmg if immune)
Stealer of Souls - Absorbs 300 HP from 1 E
Final Bell - Instant Death or 500 dmg to 1 row
Black Shadow - 700 dmg to all Es (instead of 500)

You know there are 2 unused stat growth (B and C hex) that get better at level 60-99. So i actually think maybe Konami have a plan to make some "late bloomer" character, i mean we already have Viktor who's "early peaker" (A hex in stat growth).
So what do you think? maybe a char like meg, millie, bolgan, tuta should have this stat growth instead.


Hmm, I don't think there are any more characters who can use any of those special stat growth rates in Suikoden II. They have definitely tried it with Viktor and Gremio, and suffice to say, Viktor's STR stat (A in hex) worked but not Gremio's (C in hex). IIRC, Viktor's HP growth in Suikoden I is one of those special growth rates, namely 0A in hex, but in SII, they changed his HP growth rate to 06 since he joins Riou's party much later than when he joined Tir's.
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby healme » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:41 am

ninjaluc79 wrote:
Oh. I guess you guys can make it so that *Double-Beat can only be attached to the right hand in case rune slot locks only work on one slot?


I believe every rune have this 1 byte hexadecimal code that control which slot it can equipped, it goes like this
10 Head only
20 RH only
40 LH only
60 Hand only rune
70 all slot rune (most common)

Same with character rune / equipment lock level
01 Hat locked
02 Armor locked
04 Shield locked
08 Head Rune
10 RH Rune
20 LH Rune
40 item slot 1
80 item slot 1-2
to get multiple slot you just need to add them, ex 68 hex mean a char have locked head rune, lh rune and item slot 1

Then maybe the base damage can be tweaked instead while leaving the affinity ratings untouched?

sort answer yes you can edit spell damage,
Let just say you edit pale palace, its simple if you just change the base damage to 700, but if you like consistency like me you need to change the description too one in the rune main menu, and one in rune battle menu
PSOGL2_001.jpg

PSOGL2_002.jpg

PSOGL2_003.jpg
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby ninjaluc79 » Sun Feb 05, 2017 6:24 pm

Looking forward to the prototype version of your mod. Again, if you have questions or concerns about balancing characters, especially the less used ones, please ask away. I am also experimenting on different party setups, so if you can recommend me an experimental party setup you want me to try next, please message me.
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Shilo
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby Shilo » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:28 pm

Hi healme and everyone. I put the link of the patch up in my post. It's very basic, focusing mostly on monster upgrades and drops.
Last edited by Shilo on Tue Feb 21, 2017 4:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby Shilo » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:20 pm

Whew. Nice project and capabilities you got here.
Here are my suggestions:
- Upgrade Scold to 300 damage: It's too flashy to be weak
- Non undead should get resistant to holy magic
- That first summon magic should be high too
- Kings road could use a hundred more

If you need help making the battles challenging, i'm one dude to ask.
Last edited by Shilo on Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby ninjaluc79 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:22 pm

> Upgrade Scolding to 300 damage

Nah, too strong, and undeads are weak against Holy anyway. Maybe 150-200 damage will do if we really want it to be stronger than Angry Blow.

> Non-undeads should be resistant to holy magic

No need, making non-undeads resistant or immune to Holy will just make *Resurrection useless except for reviving and healing allies and smiting the undead, and there aren't too many undead foes in Suikoden II, and they only often appear during Neclord's arcs.

> Open Gate's base damage should be increased.

Agree with this. 150-200 damage should be enough.

> King's Road's base damage should be increased.

Same here, maybe around 300-400 damage (equal to or higher than the base damage of Dancing Flames from *Fire and *Rage).

Darkness spells should be revamped as well, to make it deal more damage when the target is immune to Instant Death.
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Shilo
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby Shilo » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:57 pm

Well, in the end, how the spells are built should depend on how monsters are built.

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veriaqa
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby veriaqa » Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:15 pm

The easiest way to make a game harder is to raise the enemy strenght/power. One good example, add HP, STR, and DEF of any bosses. That will make the fight against that boss harder.

Don't change anything else, I repeat DO NOT change anything else. Especially do not change anything related to playable entities (spells, characters, items, etc). Because it will break the game balance. Unless it is already broken, then change it to make it less broken.

This is the easiest way to make any game harder to play.

PS: While you at it, could you mod in some new runes? If you could do it I will PM you the details.
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby ninjaluc79 » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:29 pm

Well, thing is, in Suikoden, physicals always trump magic and endgame mobs have ridiculously high resistances to magic there is no real reason to use magic except for healing. Just pick everyone with 3 free rune slots (Sheena, Killey, Hai Yo, Luc, and Rina; yes, some people actually spec freaking pure magicians as physical DDs because the game is so easy and magic in this game is actually the weakest in the series as the game does not really differentiate well between pure magicians and physical DDs; like I said, you can actually spec Luc and Rina as physical DDs albeit risky, and S1 magic is still better than S2 magic even with no affinities, Clay Guardian not working, and only half the MAG stat considered!) and slap them with DB/DS/Fury, Auto-Battle your way through everything including the freaking final boss save for the occasional healing and you're set!

I just don't want to use Auto-Battle every time, I also want to be able to ACTUALLY USE MAGIC even in regular battles. Even early on the only times I use magic are for healing and whenever I'm bored with selecting Auto-Battle all the time. One way to encourage players to use magic instead of just selecting Auto-Battle every time is reducing the effectiveness of the DB/DS/Fury combo by restricting all these three runes to the hand slots so these cannot be used all at once.
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby veriaqa » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:44 pm

Well, that is easily fixable. You have tow solutions, you can lower enemies MDEF or you can add to enemies PDEF. If you choose to lower the magical defense you will risk the game to be more easier than ever before. So you can add to the enemies physical defense. That way, physical character will not roll over the enemies anymore plus now magic attack actually useful because the difference in damage from physical attack is more or less in par.
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Re: My Suikoden 2 modding, need some opinion/idea/suggestion

Postby ninjaluc79 » Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:05 am

veriaqa wrote:Well, that is easily fixable. You have tow solutions, you can lower enemies MDEF or you can add to enemies PDEF. If you choose to lower the magical defense you will risk the game to be more easier than ever before. So you can add to the enemies physical defense. That way, physical character will not roll over the enemies anymore plus now magic attack actually useful because the difference in damage from physical attack is more or less in par.


Sure, but increasing PDEF to ridiculous amounts would make 1-slotters like Georg and Pesmerga and no-slotters like Shin and Genshu even more useless than the 3-slotters, so people would still just use the Ultimate Physical Party (Sheena, Killey, Hai Yo, Chaco, Sid) for physical damage and ignore everyone else anyway.
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