Unfinished New Game +

If you are stuck in the Dunan Unification Wars; or wish for more details on the gameplay systems, this is the place.
Antimatzist
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Re: Trial Road

Postby Antimatzist » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:23 am

If the newgame+ really starts at White Deer Inn, I wonder if all the prior recruits will be lost, too. Like, the ones you took to the Sindar Ruins? Not that it would matter greatly; you'd go to Muse, then to Coronet and meet Eilie, Rina, and Bolgan. It might come across a bit weird, though.

This is actually pretty interesting, because none of the recruits up to that point can be missed. I always assumed it was just nice of the producers to make some characters either re-apper at different locations later in the game (Rikimaru, Zamza) or can be recruited afterwards (Millie),* but if they made them re-appear for a NG+ ...

*I actually don't know if Kinnison and Shiro can be permanently missed, but all guides say no.

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Re: Trial Road

Postby Pyriel » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:44 am

Block B is an item listing. For instance at 0x30DD5:

Code: Select all

RAM:8013EA25                 .byte 0x42  # B          # Heals 900 HP


This is another thing they did. It's mostly been replaced by a global, purpose-built listing in every place that matters, but the item list still exists in dozens of files. The purpose-built listing only contains items that you have in the room, like whatever is in your party inventory, or whatever equipment you're wearing, and the game will crash if it has to retrieve a description or details for an item not in it. This happens to a lot of people when they try to edit their inventory with cheats while playing the game. It looks like Konami used the nuclear option to get around this by building the item listing into a number of area modules where chests and the like exist. I'm not entirely sure that it's necessary in the release, nor am I sure it's unnecessary. I do know that it plays into the bug with the scroll shop identifying antiques, though. The shop module references some outdated functions that get details from a more local array, and that doesn't take the "unappraised" bit into account. So I'm leaning towards these additional listings being mostly extraneous artifacts of development.

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Re: Trial Road

Postby TheyCallMeStacy » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:12 am

Antimatzist wrote:
If the newgame+ really starts at White Deer Inn, I wonder if all the prior recruits will be lost, too. Like, the ones you took to the Sindar Ruins? Not that it would matter greatly; you'd go to Muse, then to Coronet and meet Eilie, Rina, and Bolgan. It might come across a bit weird, though.

This is actually pretty interesting, because none of the recruits up to that point can be missed. I always assumed it was just nice of the producers to make some characters either re-apper at different locations later in the game (Rikimaru, Zamza) or can be recruited afterwards (Millie),* but if they made them re-appear for a NG+ ...

*I actually don't know if Kinnison and Shiro can be permanently missed, but all guides say no.


You may be onto something. Given that the first time characters can be permanently missable is right after the Sindar Ruins, with the battle with Gilbert, and if you don't run into Elza for Clive, it's quite possible that a new game + was set to restart right at this point. Maybe the developers didn't expect you to get all 108 stars on your first go, and this was a way of gently guiding you to have another attempt at getting characters that are permanently missable like them.

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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:33 am

Murayama explicitly stated that they did not expect players to get all 108 characters at the first time. New Game + was still a rarely used feature at the time, so maybe they thought it to be too complicated? Or ran out of time.

It's a cool find nevertheless! I wonder how many secrets these games still hold.

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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby ne__ya » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:03 am

>Pyriel
Thanks a lot!
Wow, then they really have things all over. Now that you mention it, I can see how DOGU.BIN, for example, shows a part of region "B". Plain text, too :shock:
It would be so interesting to hear a developer talk about what happened and why they made their decisions. It's a shame that kind of stuff is never revealed.


Concerning the recruits, you guys are absolutely right that the recruits up to that point are safe ones. Although it would be kind of strange to have three recruits disappear at White Deer Inn, all the Muse events don't involve them, so no harm done. And it would be "another world" anyway.
Looks like this might be another pro, or at least, not a con :D

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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby ninjaluc79 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:14 pm

The Kotaku article states the possibility of Riou getting the Black Sword Rune instead of the Bright Shield Rune.

I kind of understand some players not liking a supportive True Rune for Riou, as they put it, "It didn't feel like he had a TR at all." After all, he is the main character, and therefore, he must take most of the spotlight in the game, and he can't do that if he just stays at the back healing and buffing everybody. It does help that Riou is a strong physical attacker by himself, so he is never a dead weight when healing is not needed unlike most healers in other games. Of course, there's nothing stopping a Suikoden 2 player from spec-ing Riou as a pure physical attacker with the famous DB/DS combo and only using the Bright Shield Rune when healing.

Well, two things.

First, Riou is not a natural mage like Jowy (05 MAG and a B in Resurrection for Riou, 07 MAG and high affinities to most elemental magic for Jowy), so even if he gets the Black Sword Rune, it will never be as powerful as when Jowy had it.

Second, the Black Sword Rune doesn't really suit him. First off, his naturally kind personality sort of clashes with the dark theme of the Black Sword Rune. Second, the tonfa is more of a defensive weapon than any other martial arts weapons like the bo staff both Tir and Jowy use and the sansetsukon both Nanami and Freyjadour use (though Frey can do more things with the tri-section staff than Nanami can ever dream of, which is why Frey got a supportive TR like Riou did). A True Rune that suits a wielder of a weapon designed for protection rather than attack is none other than something like the Bright Shield Rune. But of course, the tonfa doesn't look like it when Riou wields it.

That is why I have specced Riou as the primary healer ever since; I don't want Riou to hog all the spotlight even if he is the main character, there are a lot of interesting characters in Suikoden 2, and it's boring to use the same guys in parties all the time. That is why I made it a personal mission to try out every single party combination in the game I could think of, even bringing with me characters most people don't use to the Final Boss.
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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby Pyriel » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:23 pm

To be honest, I don't see anything in there that hints at switching runes. It's not impossible that they intended that, and it's definitely possible that it was an idea toyed with during development, but it seems way too complicated. If they meant to do it, they didn't make any progress on it outside this dungeon. At least I've never seen any leftover text anywhere else that indicates they might have made preparations for the impact that would have had.

As far as reversion goes, they already sort of have that in place with the "Don't Give Up" feature. All they needed to do was use a sort of pre-built, phony save with everything set properly for the point they wanted to drop you at, and bang, done. It sort of makes me wonder if this wasn't somewhere they meant you to go when you died, but the wording makes that seem a little unlikely. It would explain why the enemies there seem to be mostly weaklings, but it wouldn't explain why it's located in Sajah, or why you can apparently exit to Sajah. Of course, they could have repurposed "Hidden Village" after deciding to scrap the fight for a second chance.

I don't know, is "Hidden Village" reminiscent of any Japanese or Chinese folktales? Like a stopover in the hinterlands between one life and the next, where heroes can challenge death for a second chance? The only Japanese thing I know the concept of "hidden villages" from is ninja crap in JRPGs.

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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:22 am

Pyriel wrote:I don't know, is "Hidden Village" reminiscent of any Japanese or Chinese folktales? Like a stopover in the hinterlands between one life and the next, where heroes can challenge death for a second chance? The only Japanese thing I know the concept of "hidden villages" from is ninja crap in JRPGs.

Not that I know of. The traditional Japanese concept of the after-life is Yomi, which is essentially a copy of the real world so any "hidden village" in the real world should exist there as well, but everyone in it leads a gloomy and somewhat pointless existance. According to the mythology you can't escape Yomi if you've eaten anything there.

So it doesn't really add up to anything this dungeon suggests, though it matches quite nicely with Gremio's experience in the Saturn version of his resurrection where he wanders a mirror of the world with nothing to do except chase after McDohl without ever catching up.
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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby ne__ya » Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:52 am

Considering S2's main storyline, I agree it is unlikely that Riou would get the Sword Rune. The actions and decisions Riou and Jowy take are linked to their runes' very nature, so if they switch runes, they'd really have to switch places. Since it is said that both Luca and Jowy's characters are based on Xiang Yu (Luca takes his cruel side, and Jowy his benevolent side) and Riou's on Liu Bang (born a simple peasant), it's not very feasible.
I wouldn't mind seeing all the drama on the enemy's side, though.

Neither do I know of any "Hidden Village" having a special meaning beyond the literal.
The idea that the dungeon might have been accessible throughout the game (provided you die) is interesting. It wouldn't necessarily go against its location in Sajah. You'd access it when you die, and at the end of the game, you get to access it alive, maybe with a different end point revealed.
Looks like the "Don't Give Up" feature might be worthwhile looking at. It makes me wonder how much items you get to carry over to a newgame+.

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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby ne__ya » Mon Dec 26, 2016 10:04 am

OK, I hope everyone has been enjoying Happy Holidays :D
Here comes plan B.

F10v2: judging from the location of stairs, an alternate version of F10?
F10v2.jpg

F11: where the dialogue takes place?
F11.jpg

I pretty much ignored the lighten/darken effects and any other things that require tweaking; I didn't feel like spending time ‏figuring it out. For F10v2 I performed some manual darkening effect, but for F11, that layer was shared with other stuff so I just let it be.

VJ24 has 13 floors worth of map data, B1,F1-F9 being in order.
The data for F10, as seen in the game, is located where F12 should be.
F11 seems to be in place.
The strange floor that takes up the place of F10, is probably where the door with eight orbs should have been located, hiding the stairs going up at the bottom of the picture. This alternate version of F10 seems incomplete, so I am tempted to think that they decided to make the dungeon more interesting by making this new F10 with the special door, and left off development there.
The pink Journeyman Chrystal with its pedestal had not been placed at all, and neither did they get to use the second cloud texture. So maybe there were supposed to be additional floors.

EDIT: Replaced pictures after some correction
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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby ne__ya » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:21 am

Um, I decided to go through 09-17 and the alternate F10 is there alright. Complete, too.

09-17.jpg

This floor definitely did not exist for 09-11, though. Also, enemies are much stronger here, and exactly the ones I found among the VJ24 4bit sprite sheets. An alternate end point within the same dungeon; so Pyriel's theory that this dungeon may be accessible throughout the game might indeed be true.

I feel a bit silly going through all the trouble for plan B when this thing has been there all the time, you just had to choose 09-17 for destination. (the "incomplete look" was only a matter of not getting it right)
when you choose to go to 09-17, X,Y of 30,30 is recommended, you arrive on the 6th floor.
(when you go down the stairs, it crashes, but you can see another orb stand in the suspicious location of F5)
Definitely need to work on plan A...

EDIT: the special door works probably like, when you press button at the orb stand, lights go off, and at the door light turns on. I still wonder if there would be 4 orb stands or 8.
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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby JiN88 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:14 am

Well I tried the codes and I can tell so far what the fact provided are quite true:


1) The location of the dungeon is in Sajah it seems. As I tried inside the dungeon and got teleported to Sajah, all it provided me was a white screen. But then I noticed that all the interactions still works (items, equipment, even Riou's portrait did appear, and even the sound it makes when talking to people). So I did a blind walk estimating you do exit exactly from the hidden cave rock, press down and managed to talk to someone, walk down some more and turn all the way right and managed to get out to the world map (you can even go into the shops if you're lucky). This means that when you exit/teleport to Sajah from the unknown dungeon, you appear outside the cave near the girl, and you can exit. Somehow the screen just turn white. At the world map everything's fine and when you go back to Sajah, it too was fine and no, the rock still didn't change.

2) Regarding the text and the asking of the dialogue does seems to appear at F11.jpg, pink pedestal and all. I used a cheat to get through the door and interact with everything there normally. The number of choices and dialogue seems to be in place but in pure gibberish of symbols but the choices seems to fit as theorized. Randomly fiddling with the choices does seems to work. One option will warp you back to Sajah, another will crash the game (possible New game Maybe?) and another I think cancel out the talk but the event loops back again so you will go through the dialogue talk over again and again until you make a decision (go back to Sajah or crash the game)

You don't really need to worry about the X Y coordinate. Just use a cheat to walk through the walls.

Oh and I just noticed. In the appraisal shop in Sajah there's an outlandish ornament that looks suspiciously like the two headed snake...

Note: I don't know much about programming but I can at least test some of the ideas out.

Edit: Clarification and grammar

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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby ne__ya » Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:42 am

OMG! PLAN A!! JiN88, that is so, so, so AWESOME!!! :D
But you know what's more? You can actually WALK AROUND THE DOOR!
I found this when I couldn't get the walk-through-the-wall cheat to work. LOL
Here's a screenshot of F11 in action, for anyone not so familiar with cheats altogether.
(I used Japanese version)

F11live.jpg

There was no portrait for the Rune.
Where it crashes, is actually where the Rune is telling Riou to close eyes, so I expect you would get glimpses of the good ending which they didn't prepare.

Aaaaand, you are so right!! You can walk out of white Sajah!!!
This is so hilarious. Because of the white screen, we all assumed it crashed, but it actually didn't at all!

With your post, I decided not to take anything for granted, and did a walkthrough of all 09-11, 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17, just to have it done. With some result, too.

09-11: arrive at B1, from B1(to Sajah) up to F10(crash), orb stands F3, F6
09-13: arrive at F6, down to B1(to Sajah) up to F10(crash), orb stands F3, F6
09-14: arrive at F1, down to F10(crash) up to F5(crash), orb stands F2 (upper), F4
09-15: arrive at F6, down to F5(crash) up to F10(crash), orb stand F9
09-16: arrive at F1, down to F10(crash) up to F5(crash), orb stand F2 (lower)
09-17: arrive at F6, down to F5(crash) up to alternate F10, onto F11, orb stand F5, F9
Note: Enemies grow stronger from 09-11 to 09-17
EDIT: added F5 orb stand to 09-17

In cases of 09-14 and 09-16 where you arrive at F1 and go down the stairs, you arrive at F10. So it's a loop. I don't think it's an infinite loop, although I won't rule it out. I suppose there are many reasons why a crash happens, but the way destinations 09-14 to 09-17 almost look to be in sequence, it seems like it crashes when it tries to move between "destinations" (for a lack of better term).
So if the two versions of F10 are merely for the sake of looping, maybe this dungeon is not accessible throughout the game after all, but really a dedicated epilogue dungeon.

I could only find 7 orb stands, but anyway I am attaching an updated picture. I have no idea how I missed the 8th stand. Maybe 09-14 through 09-17 aren't 5 floors each, but really 10 floors each (EDIT: maybe the crashes are due to undefined bosses) so the 8th might be hidden somewhere beyond the crash points. Or I just somehow managed to overlook one. I didn't want to "test my will" further, so I am satisfied to know there are going to be 8 orb stands.

UnknownDungeon-v2.jpg

This is great. Going through every destination with an open mind was all that was needed to get to this conclusion. No ripping! It's really just one's mind that's blocking the way :D
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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby JiN88 » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:33 pm

Lol. ne__ya, I actually took a crack at the Japanese version as well and was about to detail my findings.
Was stuck in the JPG ver since the walk through wall cheat doesn't seem to work but the door can be walked around LOL. I found out before your post (A reminiscence of the Matilda glitch, ah...).
I'll list out all my findings below for easier reading, as well as ideas, requests and next possible step if anyone willing to contribute. Its split since everyone interest in either the Rune, Sajah or the dungeon. Also some of request and theories.


1)The Rune of Circulating Paths is there in the purple pedestal room. This I can 100% guarantee.

After using the JP version and got Japanese text I can read a bit. I know Chinese to tell some:
我 = I or me 新 = New
世界 = World 道 = Road or Path
百万 = million
少年 = Youngster or Young one

Fiddling with the choices correspond exactly to ne__ya script and will lead to 3 outcomes as it activate an event for you to walk to it:
-It will do something and crashes the game (This is what we're all hoping to see for the New Game+ but seems broken. Hope someone can fix it). But before it crashes it has a sound coming from it. My theory is that it play a music, then to an event that doesn't exist in the game file. It's just like any other event where the sound appears first before the game forces the player to walk around for the event.
- Somehow give you a chance to go out of the dungeon and warp you back to Sajah in a white screen (Will call it White Sajah). You can actually walk out to fix the issue but I don't know if there's any other changes after that. And no, the rock did not move
- Loop de loop. If you choose not to either it will force an event for you to walk back (previously it forces you to walk to it) and loop it again until you make one of the choices. Seems broken though.

Next step: Probably go through the music files and listen to see which music it plays before the crash to have an idea on where it leads to. It'll be quite hard since it plays like 0.1 sec before crashing. Or, even better, someone will fix the crash.

Theory: Everyone speculating on the New Game + with lots of hope.
My theory is that once you make the first decision before the crash, it plays music, then to an event that doesn't exist in the game file so it crashes. It's just like any other event where the sound appears first before the game forces the player to walk around for the event. So hopefully someone can get on that.

2)Sajah is the main entrance/spot for the dungeon. This I can 80% guarantee.


I say 80% because of the white screen but Its a safe bet to say 100%. After being warped to Sajah (whichever way) you will get a white screen. However you can still walk around and interact and even go out to the world map. Estimate warp location is the conspicuous rock near the girl. So its a safe bet that's where the dungeon is. If you use the walk through cheat (using the ENG version), the rock interact differently than the surrounding.

I put 80 % sure because if someone can get the white screen fixed then we can tell how it looks like.

Other fun tidbits:
There's a outlandish ornament that looks suspiciously like the two headed snake in the appraisal shop. Which could be a hint.
Sajah or Saja means calm or serene in Arabic. Could also mean enlightenment. Given the usage of real life language and places in Suikoden this seems a likely coincidence.

One weird thing did happen in the JPG version when I tried to collect orb, go back out, go back in to collect the orb again. In it, I went to the unknown dungeon, randomly got a orb, go through the Rune talk and warp back to White Sajah, got out and go back in--Somehow I appear near the trees beyond the boundary. Managed to get out, went around to warp back into the same UNKNOWN dungeon previously but all I got was a dark screen (No crash but the screen normally that shows its still loading the place). There's some sound there, but no music, and you can't access the menu so it was softblocked. No idea on the ENG ver though.


Next step: Probably walk around after the white Sajah and see if anything change. Seems unlikely since all the script and secrets has been found out already.

Theory: The dungeon in Sajah might not be a cave at all, seeing you just warp out to there and no indication there's a cave. Probably just a floor to warp to the dungeon while still remaining at Sajah.

3)The dungeon...its a bit weird.


-The layout:
It doesn't really seems like a dungeon, more like a tower. If you advance through to the Pedestal you'll ultimately be reaching up.There are some same floors that has the same going down but just slightly at the side so you can assess them easily making the whole place confusing to explore. There are also the crashes that frustrate it more but will elaborate further.

Pyriel, does the code really say dungeon?
Also I notice the code skipped 09-12. Is that a coincidence?
09 - 11: Unknown Dungeon
09 - 12: L'Renouille Castle, exterior
09 - 13: Unknown Dungeon 2
09 - 14: Unknown Dungeon 3
09 - 15: Unknown Dungeon 4
09 - 16: Unknown Dungeon 5
09 - 17: Unknown Dungeon 6


-The orb:
Going by what ne__ya explored there is one more orb missing. I can't really hack the game (no idea on how to hack other than rudimentary knowledge) to explore. I don't really know if you can get all of them in one same run but you could probably use deductive reasoning to see which floor the orb is at. Like go from the 8th orb and go back to the door to see it activated on the 8th slot, go for the 7th orb to see it again on the 7th slot, go for 6th orb and see it at the 5th slot to know that the 6th orb lies somewhere in between.

- The door:
Nothing much to say since you can walk behind it indicating there was never going to be any animation to open it. Much like the Mathilda glitch (so like Konami)

-Monsters:
Yeah, they get stronger as you progress higher. I think you can get the whole list from the standard bestiary other than the naming errors.

-Chest?:
I noticed download/file.php?id=243 from ne__ya that there's a chest there. You could try to do something about it like hacking to see what is it or find it.

-Bosses:
Now here's an interesting find.
In the ENG version I met the Sewer rat and fought it, got hurt etc. . All other event stairs either loop or crashes the event.
In the JPG Version I met the Poisonous Moth (Not the baby caterpillar, just to clarify). Interestingly it died the instance the battle started. It could be the cheat I used but when I turned it off it happened again.

In the JPG version I can't seem to find the sewer rat and the ENG version I can't find the Poisonous Moth. I don't remember if they appear at the same spot of stairs (I can't recall honestly) but there seems to not exist in either of them. Or they both could be at the same spot and were acting as placeholders.

I propose there are 3-5 bosses in total (one is the sewer rat or the moth or both, others crashes or loop the game). I didn't really keep track of it and the JPGver and ENGver and warping is confusing.

If the guess is correct, then the other bosses could be the 8 headed ghouls, the bone dragon, the stone golem or any other Big mini bosses throughout the game. Or they could all be placeholders.

-Other glitches:
In ENG version, using the Thor thunder I managed to glitch the graphics a bit in the dungeon. Seems pointless but it carries out when you get out of the place and into save menu. Don't know what happens if you load it again though.


Pure theory:

The dungeon is meant for you to solo alone (No idea if Mchdol counts). This is on par with the Solitude rune (The one ONLY accessible through hacking) so you can handle all the bosses well alone; Its a lot harder if you don't have your party with you. Since Sajah (where the dungeon is located ) is a late game location, the player should have enough level to solo the whole place with it.

Next step: dunno, explore more?

4) Request. This will help others.


-Which version is the best to test it out? Best we can come to a consensus for consistent results.
For ENG I used http://coolrom.com/roms/psx/39634/Suikoden_II.php this rom but I can't tell which version is it. But I somehow crash when I fight Jowy for the ending. Is there any better one or emulator problem?
For JPG I used http://www.emuparadise.me/Sony_Playstat ... _II_(Japan)/176403. I think if you use the JPG version there's more possibilities the codes are still in tact. But somehow the game does glitch occasionally.

Edit: Comments on the Roms.

-Any one has any save state?
For ENG, anyone have the save state for NO 108 STARS and preferably before the beast rune? I keep finding WITH 108 stars but it not on par with my theory below.
FOR JPG, for the love of GOD anyone has its save state? I don't want to play the whole things again especially if I can't read it.

-Cheat/Gamshark or other programs?.
Other than the wall walk, what else is there to use?
800965E4 0000
800961F6 2400
80096206 2400
8009621A 2400
80096226 2400
Also ne__ya, any luck in walking through walls in the JPG version? Others (God mode, money) seems to work.
Also is there any way to get out of the dungeon when in it? I can't seem to use any escape talisman whatsoever (A hint it might not even be a dungeon at all)

My theory on how it all works.

1) Get NO 108 stars
2) Nanami dies (For real)
3) Rune beast fight. Win and you'll be free to walk around--alone (No recruiting).
4) Fight Jowy alone, Kill Jowy. (May not be needed. Skip to 6)
5) You'll STILL be able to walk around unlike the ending.(May not be needed. Skip to 6)
6) Go to Sajah being sad and lonely
7) Go through the dungeon alone (No idea if Mchdol counts)(Thanks to Solitude Rune making it a bit easier)
8 ) The Rune of enlightenment gives you the choice
9) Warp to UNKNOWN (I put unknown since SIndar/White deer Inn is pure speculation but a reasonable idea). Maybe to SIndar ruin where you get the healing herb from the chest (Its on a ziggurat, a tower maybe). Also the plaque before the healing herb chest did ask what you treasure most (You answer Friends/Family)
10) play it again and GET 108 stars
11) Nanami lives (But hidden...that lazy bitch)
12) Yada yada duel with Jowy and all the ending falls in place.

Note: If there's more to add I'll edit inside.
Last edited by JiN88 on Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Unfinished New Game +

Postby Omnigamer » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:18 am

Looking back at that first room (the "bottom floor") I think I'm starting to make a bit more sense of its purpose/location. The cave may not lead directly into the dungeon, but rather to a teleporter that takes you there. That would explain why there's no other exit on the bottom floor, and gives a purpose to that ring in the middle. It also explains how you wind up at a sort of tower, where there very clearly isn't one on the World Map near Sajah.

I have a lot of BizHawk savestates for the ENG version. I may be able to get you saves (as in, the real kind) for the JPN version that satisfy your requirements. I just need to check that they still exist, since I played it quite some time ago.


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