suikoden 2 insane challenge

[sporefrog]

here we have a new challenge for suikoden 2,even more difficult than the suikoden 1 insane challenge.

rules:

1.minimum recruitment run
no optional characters at all,only forced recruits are allowed.use the "inn-keeper" trick at the beginning of the game to trigger the pilika event without recruiting anyone and DONT recruit gilbert.

2.maximum war battle deaths
tuta,lo wen,koyu and gijimu are forced recruits and these 4 characters can and must die permanently in war battles.

3.riou level 2 run
finish the game with a level 2 riou

4.low level run
you may only use characters,who leave the party permanetly at some point in the game and dont show up on the stone tablet.that means,only jowy,nanami and mcdohl may be used(leveled up) in the entire game.
nanami shows up on the stone tablet,but you MUST use her in kyaro and it becomes a nanami/jowy solo/duo run until mcdohl is available.
because bolgan,rina,eilie and kahn leave the party but return later at higher levels,feel free to use them until they leave,if you want.
so no cheap overpowered sheena,no easy wins with lucs wind magic,and of course NO stallion,because he is optional.

5.no stat stone trick
you may only use this method to increase rious stats,so he can survive the duels.

6.no kindness rune trick
this trick just breaks the game and makes the bosses to easy.

7.no cheating devices
that means,no gameshark,no action replay,no gamebuster,...


well,thats it

one last thing:
if you dont have a suikoden 1 savefile,you cannot obtain mcdohl.in that case,you may pick up a character of your choice to finish the game.


thanks to celes for war battle hints
thanks to omnigamer for the inn-keeper trick(I belive,he was the one,who discovered this nice and essential trick)
thanks to gildedtalon for massive playtesting


a few tipps,to make this challenge more entertaining(will be updated):

-you can but you dont have to kill riou in the very first battle,he will not level up

-you should hunt the furfurs outside the fortress until they drop at least one clay guardian.maybe you will never need this item,but just in case,its good to have one with you while facing bosses solo.you dont want to waste a rune slot for a earth rune just to have clay guardian available.

-jowy and nanami will allways protect riou,if his health goes critical.you cannot avoid this with jowy,but if you use the riou-nanami unit attack,nanami will become unbalanced and unable to protect riou for 1 turn.this is the ONLY way to win the battle at kyaro against the highlands.

-you should not enter kyaro without a double beat rune.hunt for one as long as bolgan,rina and eilie are with you.

-when you could recruit new stars,head to toto village,speak 17 times with the innkeeper(you dont have to spend money or save),leave toto,reenter and the pilika scene will trigger.this is a must in every minimum stars run.

-you MUST use the matilda glitch in this challenge.you will need the stone of power located at mt. rakutei,to boost rious power,so he can damage flik in the duel.if you want an additional challenge,dont level up jowy and/or nanami while beeing in the rockaxe area.

-you may use futch and humphrey but you may never recruit them.DONT finish the dragon egg quest or these 2 stars become permanent party members and the challenge is no longer a minimum stars run.remember,you can never visit mt. rakutei again in the entire game after you throw out futch and humphrey from your party,so if you want to collect items or hunt for enemydrops,do it NOW.

-its VERY hard,to win the battles with the highlands inside the mercenary fortress while saving pilika.only the commander can kill riou with one hit and you will have to try this very often...

-dont forget to pick up the fire lizard rune in the sindar ruins.you DONT need this item to finish this challenge(riou can still be killed by counterattacks,even in the forced fights while beeing in the highland camp),but it makes the game easier for you.

-if you enter the highland camp with a level 10 nanami,she will level up to 55(!) during the single forced batte against 6 highlands after loosing jowy and the following bosses will become a breeze.if you dont want this,level up nanami up to around level 15-20 BEFORE entering the highland camp.but I would still recommend this,because you will need a very powerfull nanami for the poison moth boss later in the game.if you cannot beat this boss on your own,the challenge will be over for you.

-if you can stuck gilbert between your two weak units,he will not receive damage(sword) and the battle can be won without recruiting him at all.just make sure,victor and flik cannot reach him anymore after two missed firespear attacks because they can still damage gilbert and he will switch sides,even if he was hurt(sword) by physical damage.

-if you want a wind hat,its better to come back later with Riou/Nanami only,so you dont have to wait everytime until all other forced partymembers(Victor,Freed,Eilie) are dead,before you can start attacking the griffins.

[gildedtalon]

If only you came here on 2012, we could have so much fun doing all these crazy challenges.
Right now, I have some action games and other RPG games I'm going to play

[Pyriel]

Why are these things always such an exercise in tedium?

1. OK
2. So by doing minimum recruits, your force is already gimped in war battles, and now you have to keep replaying a strategy where you let at least one of your units die until a random number causes permanent death. Add an exception to the cheat rule, and kill them off with a GameShark.
3. Riou must die in every battle you don't run from. Use a GameShark to keep his HP at 0 or 1, stick a Firefly Rune on him, and keep him permanently poisoned.
4. You'll be running quite a bit to start with, but OK.
5. Usual.
6. Usual.
7. To hell with this. Waiting on things that are random or semi-random to happen frequently doesn't demonstrate skill, just a level of patience that might get you diagnosed as comatose.

[Omnigamer]

I will echo most of Pyriel's comments. In challenge runs that enforce arbitrary conditions, I would say the main goal is always to force the player to demonstrate superior planning and execution capabilities. Throughout the course of playing the game, there is no fundamental difference between having characters killed in War Battles instead of just opting not to take or make use of them. It is an exercise in patience.

Some other thoughts: since the war battles themselves are nearly all scripted, I sincerely doubt that having the absolutely minimum number of recruits/units alive will make a difference in difficulty at all. I don't believe there is a single war battle that you can't win just by running away for a certain number of turns.

What I'm saying is that it's great if you want to challenge yourself. Fighting randomness is fine if you want to be a perfectionist and achieve a perfect game, and you do get something to show for it. But fighting randomness just to achieve some arbitrary conditions with no rewards out of them is silly. The actual skill difficulty in the run you are proposing is equivalent to a low-level Riou small-party run that doesn't abuse glitches. Everything else is just tacked on time.

The point with number 4 bothers me a bit. It seems strange to include McDohl in the party at all since he is already a damn powerful character as it is and is completely optional. The only reason he'd come in at all is to fill Nanami's shoes just to meet your requirement of them being a "non-star". For more of a challenge I would instead say make an exception and grab Mukumuku and use one of the non-star squirrels instead.

[gildedtalon]

The actual skill difficulty in the run you are proposing is equivalent to a low-level Riou small-party run that doesn't abuse glitches.

Like I said yesterday, it's not possible without abusing Matilda glitch to get the stone of power on Rakutei mountain

For more of a challenge I would instead say make an exception and grab Mukumuku and use one of the non-star squirrels instead.

Mukumuku doesn't have enough HP to survive anything solo

Coz everything in Suikoden is about patience. Like collecting everything

Okay, can you two give a better skill-based challenge instead?

[sporefrog]

@omni and pyriel

first of all,nobody is forced to follow the rules!!!
if you dont want to use mcdohl,then dont use him.if you want to cheat and make your life easier then use a gameshark.if you want a level 2 riou run with 106 stars,then go and recruit everyone in the game.everybody should have fun while playing this game,and everyone should play this game in a way,he prefers.

the above rules are only MY definition of a real suikoden 2 challenge.I want to play this game with max. difficulty,thats why I choose these rules.you have to plan ahead,you must use crazy tactics,you cannot rush through the game like before,you must use your inventory slots very carefully to survive,you must abuse(NOT cheat) the game mechanic to be successful,you will not have an overpowered 6 man party,you will fight battles like you never fought before,...and finally you will feel great,because you have beaten this game in the most insane way:-)

of course,mcdohl is a powerhouse,but everyone should know,that the beast rune will kill every solo-party without a good magic defense and other good stats,so what will you do with a squirrel like mukumuku,who cannot even equip anything,lol?

the idea was,to finish this game without using any other character exept the hero.this is not possible,so why not use the "other" hero?I killed golden hydra with mcdohl solo and if you play this challenge,he will kill the beast rune too,so basically,he will be the true hero of both games:-)
I allways like to play low level games,and if you follow the rules above,you will have a perfect low level game for suikoden 2.
like I said before,this is only MY definition of a totally insane suikoden 2 challenge,so if you dont like any of the rule,dont play this challenge or play it with you own rules:-)


and about this damn gameshark...
do you use the gameshark to have infinite energy for chris,while playing a resident evil knife run?
do you use it during a suikoden perfect run to cheat in all rare items in your inventory?
do you use it to have a chance in a suitless super metroid run?
do you use it to eliminate all random encounters on floating Island while playing a final fantasy 6 low Level game?

if yes,you are not a gamer,then you are a cheater.there is nothing wrong with this,but if you use a gameshark and manipulate the game,you have NOT beaten the game on your own.why not throw away the gameshark and make a TAS run???its the same lame thing...
everybody can beat every game with a gameshark,even a monkey can beat suiko 2 with a gameshark,but if you are looking for a difficult and insane challenge and want to test your skills and your enthusiasm,this is the real thing.if you want to play this game in a new way,if you want to fight impossible battles(nanami vs. poison moth or nanami vs. luca without fire sealing rune),if you want to do the war battles with minimum soldiers,in fact if you want a NEW way of enjoing this superb rpg...throw your damn gameshark away,be a real player and challenge this run.

I did solo runs,speedruns,minimum stars runs,clive quest,100% item games,perfect games,...in fact everything...there is only one thing missing:an ultimate challenge.and this ultimate challenge is the suikoden 2 insane run,but thats just my oppinion.if you dont like it,dont play it.if you like it,I hope you will have the same fun with this challenge like me:-)

[Omnigamer]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean to actually use Mukumuku, but one of the non-star squirrels that are recruitable after him. It would fit under the pretense of having the lowest level across all recruited stars since the remaining squirrels are not stars. I feel one of the squirrels should be able to get through the final parts of the game with some proper planning.

In any case, we aren't arguing because we have ambitions to do this at all. So yes, we don't have to follow the rules at all. If completing this challenge has some intrinsic worth to you, then go for it. We are just trying to draw a line between what could reasonably be considered "skill" on the part of the player and the things the player has no control over whatsoever. It's great if you can find ways to beat the game solo with various parties or by restricting equipment/levels/etc. But if you were to tell me that you killed off every non-required character in war battles when you wouldn't be using them anyway, it just sounds pointless. You fought probability enough times, and eventually you won. There's no skill involved in that; the only thing it shows is the massive amount of free time you've had to drain on the task. Getting lucky enough to get some rare items is one thing; after all, you still have something to show for it afterwards. In this case, you've killed a character who would not have affected your gameplay at all; what have you gained?

What we're trying to say is that introducing additional challenge into the game is great if you feel you'll enjoy it. But there is a difference between technical challenge and waiting for luck. Challenges should require something of the player, and several of your conditions require nothing of the player other than being a vehicle for advancing actions.

[Omnigamer]

EDIT: Ignore this post.

[sporefrog]

In this case, you've killed a character who would not have affected your gameplay at all; what have you gained?

.

the same,what I gained after my suikoden 1 insane challenge:I beat the game with the LOWEST AMOUNT of stars of destiny.
if you do a "regular" minimum recruitment run,you avoid optional stars and thats it.but finish the game with the absolut lowest amount of stars is another story.I just want to do this once like I did in suiko 1,and thats all.I know,these stars dont affect my gameplay and I gain nothing,like I gain nothing from playing a videogame at all,but at least,I have done EVERYTHING in one of my favorite games ever(suikoden 2).

[Pyriel]

Why are you posting your challenge here if you don't want comments? Or are you looking for only positive comments?

In general, I get challenges like so-called Perfect Game speed-runs. They require planning and some skill in execution. Your challenge involves forming a Major Battle unit with only Tuta in it, marching it up to Luca's unit, and letting it get wiped out. Then you cross your fingers that the RNG offs Tuta permanently. If it doesn't, you reset and try it again. No skill required. No fun to be had. Likewise waiting for Riou and company to die 50 times while Nanami "solos" the Cave of Wind should be a hoot.

It looks like Riou will never by able to equip Firefly naturally with your conditions, so every battle you actually fight will be spent waiting for enemies to decide naturally to attack him, unless you waste slots on Skunk Runes. I suggested allowing the use of a GameShark to remove that sort of repetitive dullness. I never mentioned giving yourself a leg up in any other way. Frankly, I think those exceptions on cheating are the only way to make this challenge bearable to anyone but you.

If this was Final Fantasy, and the undesirables stayed dead, or I could burn a turn swatting them down, I'd find your idea more acceptable.

If I was building a Perfect Game file for the original Suikoden as a challenge, no I would not cheat to get more items, levels, etc. I'd sure as hell poke a value to get past that stupid Wheel of Fortune thing in Lepant's house, as long as I wasn't going for a speedrun record or something. I hate it when you're required to succeed at something that's pure chance in order to progress.

[sporefrog]

you are right,waiting each battle until the enemy kills riou is VERY annoying and the war battles will be the same but I am not in a hurry.if I mess up one battle or one war battle,then I will try again until it works.if you want to rush through the game or if you dont have the time to wait for a gentle rng,then of course,use your gameshark.I want to play this challenge without manipulating the game,but thats just me.I never used a cheating device in any challenge and so far I could allways reach my goal.
this is not a speedrun,so I have time to play it.if I have to redo a war battle 20 times,then I will do it.its not that bad.and if I only play 1 hour per day and dont advance in the game,who cares?if you dont want to retry certain battles then use the gameshark:-)
players tend to use the gameshark for other "advantages" too,and this is the primary reason for the no gameshark-rule.

[sporefrog]

updated the first post with a few hints for this challenge

[gildedtalon]

-its VERY hard,to win the battles with the highlands inside the mercenary fortress while saving pilika.only the commander can kill riou with one hit and you will have to try this very often...

It's not that hard, you just need to kill the other soldiers first and heal Riou so that Jowy won't protect him. He only protects Riou when Riou is in red health
If it is really that hard, then how did I ever get past it

You may also want to buy the armor and accessories on Rockaxe Castle



I already have four stones in my possession
Stone of power, defense, magic, mag-def

You can continue my save if you want. I'll give you or anyone else who want to continue this lvl 2 Riou run You can do whatever you want

http://www.filefactory.com/file/2pwvdfm ... sxe000_mcr
http://www.filefactory.com/file/x4ykhhh ... sxe001_mcr

[sporefrog]

thanks again for your support,but I will keep trying it on the ps2 console.If I would play it on an emulator,I would just savestate and the difficulty of this challenge would go down too much.

I decided to play this challenge with all rules,so YOU will be (maybe) the first person in the world,who recruits a level 7 mazus in suikoden 2!!!

[gildedtalon]

I haven't used save state throughout this challenge, save states make your rune farming easier or whatever it is you want to farm

Just download the two files, my uploaded files keep running off somewhere after a few months lol

-jowy and nanami will allways protect riou,if his health goes critical.you cannot avoid this with jowy,but if you use the riou-nanami unit attack,nanami will become unbalanced and unable to protect riou for 1 turn.this is the ONLY way to win the battle at kyaro against the highlands.

TWO turns, coz the unite attack will always go first, I know coz I kept making mistakes for this battle and had to try again a lot