[Guide]Level 80 Physical Damage Tiers

[ninjaluc79]

After years of hard work, I have finally finished three tier lists: Physical Damage, Unite Attack Damage, and Tank. This topic covers the Physical Damage and Unite Attack Tiers.

My criteria for the ranks are as follows:

Base normal damage (obtained through STR gears such as Flame Helmet, Master Garb, and Power Rings; and Rage/Thunder Runes on Weapon):

S = > 760
A+ = > 700
A = > 650
B+ = > 610
B = > 590
C+ = > 500
C = > 450
D = > 400
E = > 200
F = > 0

Maximum possible normal damage per turn (obtained through STR gears, Rage/Thunder Runes on weapon; and physical damage-boosting runes such as Double-Beat, Double-Strike, and Fury)

S = > 2700
A+ = > 2500
A = > 2200
B+ = > 2000
B = > 1700
C+ = > 1550
C = > 1400
D = > 1200
E = > 600
F = > 0

GS2 Physical Tiers 1-24-15.xls

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Note that I did not use Kindness Runes for this tier list. With the Kindness Rune glitch, anyone with a free weapon slot has basically the same damage potential, so those without will be severely penalized regardless of rune slots.

The Berserk effect of Fury can be derived from the Battle Oath spell from the Bright Shield Rune at 40% chance, so the Fury factor for non-Fury users is reduced to 1.2 (1.5 * 0.4 + 1 * 0.6).

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I have hence deleted the Unite Attack Tiers since I will have to test whether Rage/Thunder runes on Weapon also affect the Unite Attack damage in similar fashion to *Exertion so Unites don't have to depend on Exertion to obtain the maximum possible damage.

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Update Log

(1/22/15) Updated the list to take Hit Rate and the 40% Berserk chance for Battle Oath into account.

(1/24/15) Updated critical hit formula.

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Please feel free to comment.

Thank you.

[BadPotato]

Alright, so the "MAX domage" doesn't involve a critical, right?

So, according your sheet, since Killey can deal a maximum of 10840 but he's only rated C for a critical... who can actually deal the must physical domage in one turn, if he has a "natural" critical hit and he already has the equipement for the MAX optimisation?

I guess that it might still be him, but I'll like some sort of confirmation...

[Punkaiser]

First, I don't think violence and exertion could be the optimized setup. My line sounds old but since we are talking about optimization, not playing leisurely as we please then there's definitely no battle will last for more than two turns, that makes exertion rune(+20% in first turn, +40% in second turn) less effective than thunder/rage rune(+50% in 1st turn,+50% in 2nd turn).
Violence never take effect in the same turn your HP get reduced. So what does that mean? that means maximum benefit from using violence rune is 3x damage for every 2 turns, or actually 1.5x per turn, just about same rate as berserk rune and yet, it's not easy to trigger violent state unless you sacrifice something in the team setup.

The Berserk effect of Fury can also be derived from the Battle Oath spell from the Bright Shield Rune.

I have to disagree with this. Because:
- For characters with 3 rune slots, what rune will you put in 3rd slot then, knowing violence isnt any better?
- Using Riou to buff?
What you gain: is 1.5x ATT modified from 0.4*5= 2 characters (40% to cast berserk on 5 other allies since Rious is excluded because he'd be busy casting that spell, in average 2 characters will get the buff)
What you loose: is Riou's damage contribution in the casting turn + leaving behind 3 other characters unbuffed. Of course you can hope for an ideal situation where the whole party is blessed with berserk, but the chance is only 0.5%
As result: instead of having 6 characters attack right away with fury rune equipped, you may waste Riou's turn and 1.5x ATT modifer for 3 unbuffed characters if you choose the option not to equip Fury rune. So this setup could only apply to the party composed of 1-2 rune slotters because it's a big nerf to 3 rune slotters.

Hai Yo 345 6831 7.19 C+ B+ D

I don't get it, are you counting him as 2 rune slotters?

[ninjaluc79]

First, I don't think violence and exertion could be the optimized setup. My line sounds old but since we are talking about optimization, not playing leisurely as we please then there's definitely no battle will last for more than two turns, that makes exertion rune(+20% in first turn, +40% in second turn) less effective than thunder/rage rune(+50% in 1st turn,+50% in 2nd turn).
Violence never take effect in the same turn your HP get reduced. So what does that mean? that means maximum benefit from using violence rune is 3x damage for every 2 turns, or actually 1.5x per turn, just about same rate as berserk rune and yet, it's not easy to trigger violent state unless you sacrifice something in the team setup.

Note that "MAX" represents the highest possible normal damage in ONE turn, not one derived PER turn in a practical setting. So the best damage in my setup occurs when the Violence effect (3x) is triggered on the 7th turn, when the Exertion multiplier reaches its maximum multiplier (2.2x).

I did not use *Thunder and *Rage on weapons because there are enemies that resist Lightning and Fire, such as the Bone Dragon and especially the Beast Rune. The damage would then be reduced by 50% and sometimes, even nullified. I thought it's better not to use it so the player does not have to worry about bosses resisting the chosen element.

Hmm... I'll think about revising this with a setup which can be used in a practical/leisurely game.

The Berserk effect of Fury can also be derived from the Battle Oath spell from the Bright Shield Rune.

I have to disagree with this. Because:
- For characters with 3 rune slots, what rune will you put in 3rd slot then, knowing violence isnt any better?
- Using Riou to buff?
What you gain: is 1.5x ATT modified from 0.4*5= 2 characters (40% to cast berserk on 5 other allies since Rious is excluded because he'd be busy casting that spell, in average 2 characters will get the buff)
What you loose: is Riou's damage contribution in the casting turn + leaving behind 3 other characters unbuffed. Of course you can hope for an ideal situation where the whole party is blessed with berserk, but the chance is only 0.5%
As result: instead of having 6 characters attack right away with fury rune equipped, you may waste Riou's turn and 1.5x ATT modifer for 3 unbuffed characters if you choose the option not to equip Fury rune. So this setup could only apply to the party composed of 1-2 rune slotters because it's a big nerf to 3 rune slotters.

When I think about it, yes, 3 rune slotters can deal at least 70% more damage with *Fury than two slotters given both character types have a DB/DS already equipped. But I don't want people to think that just because a character has three rune slots means that he is a better damage dealer (DD), because some of them are not even suited as DDs normally because they are mages who will die quickly, such as Luc and Rina.

So, when I think again about it, maybe I should include *Fury, *Killer, and *Warrior as possible 3rd slot runes for 3 slotters and see which one gives the best physical damage boost. I know it's *Fury, but I would want to know how *Killer and *Warrior would fare.

So it would be like this: *Fury = 100% chance to deal 50% damage; *Killer = 1.5x critical, 30% chance to deal +50% damage from Battle Oath; *Warrior = ATK + PROT * 1.3, 30% chance to deal 1.5x damage from Battle Oath, additional damage depends on the character's PROT, but the base is 30% chance to deal +50% damage from Battle Oath.

I probably kept on using Riou as the main healer and fought the element-resistant Beast Rune one too many times so I missed that bit.

Good heads up, thanks. I'll get back to work on this.

Hai Yo 345 6831 7.19 C+ B+ D

I don't get it, are you counting him as 2 rune slotters?

Alright, so the "MAX domage" doesn't involve a critical, right?

So, according your sheet, since Killey can deal a maximum of 10840 but he's only rated C for a critical... who can actually deal the must physical damage in one turn, if he has a "natural" critical hit and he already has the equipement for the MAX optimisation?

I guess that it might still be him, but I'll like some sort of confirmation...

I did not include criticals in the calculation yet since my mind is still kinda blurry about this thing. But yes, I'll include it in my revision.

I considered Hai Yo as a 2-slotter because it's a Level 60 list. He gets his 3rd rune slot as Level 65, which can only be attained through either insane grinding or the Level 99 trick.

[Punkaiser]

Note that "MAX" represents the highest possible normal damage in ONE turn, not one derived PER turn in a practical setting. So the best damage in my setup occurs when the Violence effect (3x) is triggered on the 7th turn, when the Exertion multiplier reaches its maximum multiplier (2.2x).

Allright if you say so, by the thread title I thought you were making the best DD (per turn) list.

I did not use *Thunder and *Rage on weapons because there are enemies that resist Lightning and Fire, such as the Bone Dragon and especially the Beast Rune. The damage would then be reduced by 50% and sometimes, even nullified. I thought it's better not to use it so the player does not have to worry about bosses resisting the chosen element.

just diverse well the attacks then the team should do fine, Bone Dragon is probably the only boss resist both lightning and fire, But for Beast Rune, let Thunder bearers attack the head which doesnt resist lightning while letting Rage bearers to hit the other head which doesnt resist fire.

http://youtu.be/i-zSsgjTPXA

When I think about it, yes, 3 rune slotters can deal at least 70% more damage with *Fury than two slotters given both character types have a DB/DS already equipped. But I don't want people to think that just because a character has three rune slots means that he is a better damage dealer (DD), because some of them are not even suited as DDs normally because they are mages who will die quickly, such as Luc and Rina.

That's a common trait of traditonal DD since they are not tank but more like the berserker type which focus on offence and neglect defence. The characters with 3 runes slots are clearly better at DD role, now you're saying you don't want to show this because... you don't feel like to, that's unfair to them.

So it would be like this: *Fury = 100% chance to deal 50% damage; *Killer = 1.5x critical, 30% chance to deal +50% damage from Battle Oath; *Warrior = ATK + PROT * 1.3, 30% chance to deal 1.5x damage from Battle Oath, additional damage depends on the character's PROT, but the base is 30% chance to deal +50% damage from Battle Oath.

This is an interesting part so i'd love to join you^^
Suppose that test object has 10% crit and 160 PROT as default
10% crit could be converted to damage modifier by the law of average=0.1*3 +0.9*1=1.2x (10% deal 3x, 90% deals 1x)

Fury
Fury=100% to deal 1.5x damage with the add from base crit which make it effectively become 1.5*1.2= 1.8x

Killer
Suppose the subject had 10% crit, with killer equipped it becomes 15% => average damage modifier from crit = 0.15*3+0.85*1 = 1.3x
40% to deal 50% =>40% to deal 1.5x and 60% to deal 1x so the average damage = 0.4*1.5 + 0.6*1= 1.2x
So the final damage modifier we could benefit from this case=1.3*1.2= 1.56x
(keep in mind there's also a minus part from Riou's damage contribution because he has to buff)

Warrior
the ATT amount added=160/4=40 ATT
I take a roughly average ATT score your character list is about 360=> the new modifier with warrior rune added= (40+360)/360=1.11x
40% to deal 50% with buff brings 1.2x as above
base crit offers 1.2x
So the final modifier for this case=1.11*1.2*1.2= 1.6x (keep in mind there's also a minus part from Riou's damage contribution because he has to buff)

I considered Hai Yo as a 2-slotter because it's a Level 60 list. He gets his 3rd rune slot as Level 65, which can only be attained through either insane grinding or the Level 99 trick.

there's no need for the popular level 99 trick, just leave level 33 Haiyo as sole survivor in a battle vs 6x Zombies (tinto) he will be boosted to 76 without fortune rune, which takes you 5-10mins for preparation at max, as easy as it seems so i think we should include him in 3 rune slotters list.

[ninjaluc79]

Allright if you say so, by the thread title I thought you were making the best DD (per turn) list.

I'll consider doing a "best per turn DD" list, but do we have to exclude *Exertion for this one?

just diverse well the attacks then the team should do fine, Bone Dragon is probably the only boss resist both lightning and fire, But for Beast Rune, let Thunder bearers attack the head which doesnt resist lightning while letting Rage bearers to hit the other head which doesnt resist fire.

http://youtu.be/i-zSsgjTPXA

The heads are invulnerable to damage as long as the Rune part is still alive. The Rune part needs to be killed off first. Fortunately, the Rune part only resists Instant Death, Poison, and Sleep. So yeah, maybe I should use *Rage or *Thunder on weapon for my "best per turn DD" list.

I considered Hai Yo as a 2-slotter because it's a Level 60 list. He gets his 3rd rune slot as Level 65, which can only be attained through either insane grinding or the Level 99 trick.

There's no need for the popular level 99 trick, just leave level 33 Hai Yo as sole survivor in a battle vs 6x Zombies (tinto) he will be boosted to 76 without fortune rune, which takes you 5-10mins for preparation at max, as easy as it seems so i think we should include him in 3 rune slotters list.

Hmm... Maybe we should make a Level 80 DD tier list instead. That way, everyone gets their maximum rune slots! (Hoi gets his Head slot by level 80).

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I'm planning to post my Tank and Magic tier lists soon, but I need these issues addressed first:

1. So I have included Anti-Magic Tank tiers in my initial Tank lists along with the Physical Tank tiers because for me magical tanking is just as important as physical tanking, especially in magic-heavy areas (such as the final dungeon). Barring Oulan (high HP and MDEF), magicians usually have high MDEF but low HP, and yet they rate pretty high in my Anti-Magic Tank lists. However, that alone does not guarantee their effectiveness in tanking physical attacks, as most mages in Suikoden 2 (except maybe Flik) are bad physical tanks.

2. Fire and Lightning Magic tiers are pretty easy to list because all of its spells are damaging spells. Blue Gate, requires a bit of research since only certain Head-slotters can use it (Tuta can't use it even if he has a Head slot). The other runes however, have these:

Wind - 1 Sleep spell, 2 damaging spells (one is also a healing spell), one full-heal spell, and 1 user-only reflect spell
Earth - 4 support spells, 1 damaging spell
Water - 3 healing spells (2 full-heals), 1 support spell, and 1 global silence spell
Darkness - 1 Instant Death spell, 3 damaging spells
Resurrection - 2 damaging spells, 1 revive spell, and 1 healing spell

Do I have to include non-damage spells in the tiers calculation or just base the tiers on spells which damage can be calculated? If I have to include non-damage spells, how should each one weigh in the calculations?

Thanks in advance.

[Punkaiser]

Hmm... Maybe we should make a Level 80 DD tier list instead. That way, everyone gets their maximum rune slots! (Hoi gets his Head slot by level 80).

yay, not only Hoi and Hayo, there's also Sigfried who will have 3rd rune slot available at level 8x which make him pretty strong even at late game. The devs couldn't have made these things for naught

1. So I have included Anti-Magic Tank tiers in my initial Tank lists along with the Physical Tank tiers because for me magical tanking is just as important as physical tanking, especially in magic-heavy areas (such as the final dungeon). Barring Oulan (high HP and MDEF), magicians usually have high MDEF but low HP, and yet they rate pretty high in my Anti-Magic Tank lists. However, that alone does not guarantee their effectiveness in tanking physical attacks, as most mages in Suikoden 2 (except maybe Flik) are bad physical tanks.

Lucky we have a complete bestiary with enemies stats here, then you should be able to rank them based on number of attacks(or magic attacks) they can take from an average enemy.

2. Fire and Lightning Magic tiers are pretty easy to list because all of its spells are damaging spells. Blue Gate, requires a bit of research since only certain Head-slotters can use it (Tuta can't use it even if he has a Head slot). The other runes however, have these:

uhm, sorry but above you had to break the ranking into roles because it's hard to rank all in one, with same logic, why combine both offensive and supportive role together now for magic? If it's the Runes you're ranking, then I can understand why you did that. As for characters ranking, combining roles makes it really tough to evaluate.

[ninjaluc79]

Siegfried gets his second rune slot at Level 75. So Hoi gets his final rune slot at the latest.

Time to make a Level 80 DD Tiers List, then.

As for the Magic Tiers, I am ranking characters based on how good they are in using each of the magic runes, and not the runes themselves.

As we know, the roles of each magic rune is as follows:

Fire - multi-target damage (good vs. mobs unless they resist Fire)
Lightning - single-target damage (good vs. bosses unless they resist Lightning)
Water - healing and support
Earth - support and ground damage
Wind - Jack-of-all-trades (healing, support, and anti-air damage)
Resurrection - anti-undead, revive, and healing
Darkness - instant death, anti-holy/dark-element damage
Blue Gate - multi-elemental damage

So should I disregard status and full-healing spells in my evaluation, then?

[ninjaluc79]

Update: Replaced my first tier list with a new one.

Please feel free to comment just in case I have missed something.

Also, I need feedback on the calculation method for the Magic tiers.

Thanks.

[ninjaluc79]

Update: Took into account the permanent equipment of Simone, Vincent, Lorelai, Meg, and Tengaar.

Will be posting the Level 60 Tank Tiers later.

[Punkaiser]

Are you sure Battle Oath has only 30% to cast berserk on a character? In other suikoden, that rate is 40%.

Riou 420ATT 783DMG 2701MAX

can you go in details how to calculate this for an exemple please?

I have hence deleted the Unite Attack Tiers since I will have to test whether Rage/Thunder runes on Weapon also affect the Unite Attack damage in similar fashion to *Exertion so Unites don't have to depend on Exertion to obtain the maximum possible damage.

Only exertion, Dstrike,Fury,violence, warrior rune affect unite attack while Dbeat, lightning/thunder/fire/rage/fire lizard don't.

[ninjaluc79]

Are you sure Battle Oath has only 30% to cast berserk on a character? In other suikoden, that rate is 40%.

The game says 30%. Are you sure it's really 40%?

Riou 420ATT 783DMG 2701MAX

can you go in details how to calculate this for an exemple please?

I used Flame Helmets, Master Garbs, 3x Power Rings, and Rage/Thunder runes on weapon for this setup.

CRIT = (TECH + LUCK) / 32
MULT = 3 * CRIT + (1 - CRIT) = 1 + 2 * CRIT
DMG = ATK * MULT
Berserk Bonus = 1.5 if Fury is equipped, 1.15 (0.7 * 1.5 + 0.3 * 1) for a 30% chance to Berserk from Battle Oath, 1.2 for 40% chance
MAX DMG = DMG * DB Bonus (2) * Berserk Bonus * DS Bonus (1.5) * Rage/Thunder weapon Bonus (1.5)

So for Riou (175 STR @ level 80 + 170 weapon ATK + 75 STR = 420 ATT):

DMG = 420 * (1 + 2 * (200 + 200) / 32) = 783 DMG
MAX DMG = 783 * 2 (DB) * 1.5 (DS) * 1.15 (Battle Oath) = 2701 DMG
if Berserk Bonus = 1.2, MAX DMG = 783 * 3 * 1.2 = 2818 DMG

Only exertion, Dstrike,Fury,violence, warrior rune affect unite attack while Dbeat, lightning/thunder/fire/rage/fire lizard don't.

Then in that case, 2 rune slots for Fury/DS are enough for a Unite Attack-oriented character. I will not include the effects of Friendship and Exertion because of its limited quantities.

It's possible to use 2 Exertion runes for 2-person unites via Guardian Deity. Only Hix and Tengaar can use two Exertion runes without the Guardian Deity since he has a permanent Exertion rune attached.

For 3-person unites or more, it gets rather shady. Friendship is the only other usable weapon rune for the unite attack setup.

[Punkaiser]

The calculation seems really good, i have no further comment.

The game says 30%. Are you sure it's really 40%?

no, im not sure about the rate in S2, but remember quite well it was 40% in S3 and S5 the last time I checked.
Well, just take a look at ss rune database, it even indicates another rate:

Inflicts Berserk (50%) / all allies.

http://suikosource.com/runes/list/?rune_id=4

[ninjaluc79]

Phew, I'm back after a long time.

So, any suggestions for a revised physical DD tier list?

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: Updated the tier list.

Many thanks.

[Omnigamer]

Ninjaluc, your critical chance calculation is still incorrect. The correct formula is:

(TECH+(LUCK/2))/16=crit chance