Evasion and the Hazy/Gale runes

[ninjaluc79]

But it doesn't explain how the characters can dodge attacks without counter-attacking. If it's true that counter-attacks are checked first, then that means slow characters like Humphrey can still evade melee attacks by stacking up TECH and SPD equipment, raising their counter-attack rate (which means they can dodge more attacks than their natural evade can allow) and evasion rate (which in turn increases their "natural" evade).

In effect, the counter-attack check works like a "Perfect Dodge" check, only that it gives the defender an extra opportunity to attack.

Shielders like Freed and Gengen benefit better from a counter-attack build because of their above-average TECH rates and the ability to equip the Mangosh, which increases counter-attack chance.

[Punkaiser]

But it doesn't explain how the characters can dodge attacks without counter-attacking

It does. I was assuming counter was checkd first then evasion rate will be checked once the counter chance failed, I'm not saying evasion rate doesnt work at all. Look at it this way:

Enemy attack
->Counter attacks checked
ok= dodge+counter
fail->evasion checked
ok=dodge+no counter
fail= no dodge+no counter

That's how it goes by that theory according to the test result(unless the test info was wrong), character with high counter rate will often dodge (and counter attack) and if you were able to pump their Tech up really high along with mangosh+counter rune, if the theory was true, they would dodge a whole lot of physical attacks( from melee enemies only since they can't counter attack long ranged enemies)

[bmesick]

My last message was horribly unclear because I deleted portions of what I was writing. It sounded like I was planning on doing the testing in the sewers. I realize that's a horrible place to do that, it would definitely have to be someplace else (the sewers was literally just where I happened to be in my playthrough at the time). I was going to make a comparison between Nanami and Riou with my Gale/Speed Ring multi-hit set up, but it was veering off-topic so I deleted it... but for some reason still kept in the first sentence and thus making a confusing paragraph and doing no one any favors, which then would influence this response with a confusing run on sentence!


Anyway, I see what Punkaiser is saying. Assuming that Dodge is NOT based off of Tech in any way, there's no way a 255 tech, 1 spd/luk set-up would result in a lot of counters. Evasion and Counter may depend on completely different stats, and the counter check takes priority over evasion regardless of if the evasion check passed. It would seem natural to assume that counter doesn't happen unless the evasion check passes, however there's no reason an counter and evasion depend on each other. The animation would make you think that counter depends on evasion first, but what's going on in the code could be different.

It seems unusual to program an evade-and-counter check that's based on stats that are independent of evasion (based on tech and not speed). What would be the point of raising speed instead of tech, then? I guess evasion can function as a fail-safe when counter fails, but that still doesn't make raising evasion instead of tech any more useful.

[veeshadow]

But it doesn't explain how the characters can dodge attacks without counter-attacking

It does. I was assuming counter was checkd first then evasion rate will be checked once the counter chance failed, I'm not saying evasion rate doesnt work at all. Look at it this way:

Enemy attack
->Counter attacks checked
ok= dodge+counter
fail->evasion checked
ok=dodge+no counter
fail= no dodge+no counter

That's how it goes by that theory according to the test result(unless the test info was wrong), character with high counter rate will often dodge (and counter attack) and if you were able to pump their Tech up really high along with mangosh+counter rune, if the theory was true, they would dodge a whole lot of physical attacks( from melee enemies only since they can't counter attack long ranged enemies)

pretty much this and btw, Revenge Earth says counter attack 100% and they will always dodging+counter except maybe those long rangers (never use RE to any rangers personally), but speaking of that I didn't test if long range enemy attack someone in RE he still dodging but not countering or just getting hit. New question in mind @___@

enemy stat also matter? really sure no one won't counter against Luca except RE or cheating your stat/level...

[ninjaluc79]

Oh, yeah, Luca Blight. Even a Level 35+ Viktor still gets countered by Luca ridiculously often. And yes, it's hard to counter him unless you use RE.

But hey, at least you can use RE on ranged party members for 100% evasion. They still can't counter-attack, though.

[ninjaluc79]

Test1 - 255tech 1spd 1luck

As confirmed, a lot of TECH does give you a lot of counter-attacks.

I managed a counter rate of ~60% with Minos at the Wind Cave.

Then I went to Rockaxe to hunt M-Knights and Highland Soldiers. M-Knights are slower but have higher TECH, where as the Highlanders are faster but have lower TECH.

Riou counters the M-Knights 90% of the time, but not so much against the Highlanders (~50-60%, not counting the archers).

Nonetheless, 255tech alone should give you at least ~50% counter rate. It's ~25% vs the Pixies at Mount Rakutei after Rockaxe liberation.

Test2 - 1tech 255spd 1luk

I only battled enemies from the North Sparrow Pass, as it's very difficult to land a hit with just 1tech. As confirmed, higher SPD gives you better chances of hitting more than one enemy in one turn, and of course, allows you to go first before anyone else.

However, despite the stat called SPEED, it actually DOES NOT AFFECT EVASION AT ALL. It only affects turn order and multi-hit chance.

As a consolation, I discovered something which I think is pretty old. When a character misses or gets hit enough times, s/he gains the Berserk status, the same one obtained from Fury Runes and the Bright Shield Rune's Battle Oath spell. Riou gets Berserked often due to missing and taking a lot of hits.

[Punkaiser]

Did you also test with 255 luck to see if it affects evasion?

I tested a counter build for vincent at level 49(counter rune, mangosh, skill rings) after 52 hits from the chinese girls in random encounter outside of rockaxe after liberation(they have high tech) the result is
26 dodge+counter attacks
11 evades+no counter attack
15 times being hit

A fun thing I find as well after another test is that Vincent dodge a lot long range attack as well, not just from melee(so i suppose that the counter attack checked as done but since long ranger can't be countered, only the perfect dodge was triggered)

[bmesick]

@ninjaluc

You mentioned Riou countering the Matilda Knights significantly more than the Highland soldiers. Could this be true for party members as well? Short/Mid-ranged characters with higher speed will get countered less when they miss an enemy (even though it does not affect accuracy)?

In your first test, did you receive direct hits from Highlanders more, or did you simply evade most of the attacks without countering? Maybe it's that high speed enemies are harder to counter-attack?

Very interesting data.

EDIT: IIRC, even when Nanami had nearly maxed out speed, when she missed a LandShark she still was always countered, so I am skeptical that enemy speed affects ally counter attack or vice versa. So I have no idea what is going on with the M-Knights and Highlanders. Maybe LandSharks have an inherent increased counter like a Mangosh/Counter rune effect.

[ninjaluc79]

Test3 - 255luk

Luck seems to affect nothing except critical hits and chance to multi-hit with SPD.

With 255spd 255luk I see a lot of triple hits.

@M-Knights vs Highlands From this test, it seems that higher SPD makes it less likely to be countered. However, when I tested 1tech 255spd, Riou still gets countered a lot.

Test4 - 255tech with an L-ranged characer (Clive)

Clive at 255tech 1spd 1luk tends to dodge a lot of attacks.

My hypothesis: TECH is the first stat you will need to stack points into for an evasion build. Next would be SPD, then LUCK.

So for an evasion build, Counter, Hazy, TECH/SPD gears, Mangosh, and Dream Robe are necessary. For characters with one free rune slot, melee would benefit more from Counter, ranged would benefit more from Hazy.

Build 1 - Evasion Shielder

Freed Y
H -----------
Rh * Counter or *Gale
Lh * Hazy
WPN * Lightning (permanent)

Head - Flame Helmet
Armor - Master Garb
Shield - Mangosh or Earth Shield
Item - Skill Ring
Item - Wind Amulet
Item - Water Amulet

You can also stack 3 Skill Rings on one character if you're not into elemental resistances. If *Counter and Mangosh happened to be unstackable, you can replace any one of them with whatever you like.

Will post more builds for other armor types later.

Build 2 - Evasion Armor

Riou / Hero 2
H * Counter
Rh * Bright Shield (permanent)
Lh * Hazy
WPN * Exertion or *Friendship

Head - Wind Hat
Body - Master Garb
Shield - None
Item - Skill Ring
Item - Thunder Amulet or Water Amulet
Item - Fire Emblem

As with the above, you can stack 3 Skill Rings if you like.

Build 3 - The Ninja/Assassin

Kasumi
H * Shrike (permanent)
Rh * Counter
Lh ----------------
WPN *Exertion / *Friendship / *Down / *Sleep / *Poison

Head - Wind Hat
Body - Dream Robe
Shield - None
Item - Skill Ring
Item - Thunder Amulet
Item - Water Amulet

Same as the above, you may stack 3 Skill Rings if you can find more of them.

Build 4 - Evasion Magic

Luc
H * Counter or *Mother Earth
Rh * Cyclone
Lh * Hazy
WPN *Mother Earth

Head - Wind Hat
Body - Robe of Mist
Shield - None
Item - Speed Ring (permanent)
Item - Skill Ring
Item - Fire Emblem (for elemental resistance)

Same as the above, you may stack 3 Skill Rings. You can only stack 2 Skill Rings with Luc due to his permanent Speed Ring.

The reason I added the option to use *Mother Earth is that with Luc's high SPD, he gets his turn before anyone else in the party save for the really high SPD characters (such as Kasumi). As such, he can cast Revenge Earth (100% counter rate for 5 turns) before the enemies could even react. This also helps in the long run, because ME has the best defensive buffs in the game.

Note that these are only examples of evasion/counter-attack builds. You can vary these builds depending on the character you use.