[FAQ] Natural Elemental Damage / Weapon Rune Pieces

Soul Eater · Post by **Soul Eater** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:42 am

This information has been verified and compiled: http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewt ... 565#p98565

I've noticed that some characters seem to do extra damage to certain enemies. The one example I can remember at the moment is the following:

I was levelling up a team of fighters at Pannu Yakuta, The hero was lvl 99, the others were in the 80's. None of them had any rune pieces in their weapons apart from the hero. The strongest fighters had an ATK stat well over 300 (330-360), then I had some weaker long rangers whos atk was around 300.

There are Devil Shield enemies, and from them my strong attackers did 275-325 damage. My weaker attackers did about 200-250.

BUT one of the long rangers was Quincy, and although he had the second lowest attack he did easily the most damage (usually over 400). As I said he had no rune pieces, and his armour was the same as others (though I doubt that does much).

I have also noticed it on some other enemies, some at Seek Valley but I don't remember too well. Has anyone else experienced this, can anyone explain it?

(Also this is not part of the same topic, but I noticed it at the same time: Is it impossible to get more than 3 mangoshes? My first two took about an hour each, my third took about 2 hours. I have been trying to get a 4th for about 20 hours. The party I am using has high luck [higher than for the other mangoshes])

Edit: changed the topic name (sorry) and stickied! -KFCrispy

Post by **KFCrispy** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:21 am

can you record the numbers for several of these fights you mention? sometimes once or twice doesn't help due to all the randomness.. also getting exact numbers helps a lot cuz then we can do the theoretical math easier, if there is any to be done.

for mangosh, i don't think there's a limit.. it's just random

Soul Eater · Post by **Soul Eater** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:15 pm

Ok I got some figures:

My party was as follows: Viktor, Hero, Flik, Stallion, Quincy, Sydonia.

(I chose Sydonia becuase his stats are very similar, he has the same type of weapon, even his battle sprite is nearly identical)

All were on level 99 with lvl 16 weapons (no cheats have been used, I don't own any cheat cartridges, just natural level ups)
All had nothing equipped
Viktor and Hero both had 9 water rune pieces, all others had nothing
Only Hero and Stallion had their fixed runes

I have all their stats written down but I will just give the attack stats and if you want the rest I will post them:

Viktor - 389
Hero - 347
Flik - 337
Stallion - 293
Quincy - 308
Sydonia -303

Here is the damage they dealt to enemies at Pannu Yakuta:

Veteran Soldier (Bow)
Viktor - 321, 325, 332, 323, 340
Hero - 309, 298, 302, 284, 298
Flik - 302, 268, 277, 280, 281
Stallion - 267, 254, 246, 242, 239
Quincy - 281, 261, 277, 243, 251 <-- Normal
Sydonia - 237, 265, 256, 239, 248

(As you can see, this shows that their ATK stat corresponds pretty well with the amound of damage they do to an ordinary enemy)

Devil Shield
Viktor - 342, 349, 361, 342, 339
Hero - 314, 267, 294, 277, 266
Flik - 263, 280, 293, 270, 265
Stallion - 244, 254, 226, 255, 238
Quincy - 369, 367, 390, 385, 380 <-- Too high?
Sydonia - 241, 249, 224, 256, 239

Devil Armor
Viktor - 316, 320, 333, 322, 329
Hero - 314, 288, 310, 299, 286
Flik - 271, 259, 285, 270, 269
Stallion - 213, 226, 213, 234, 240
Quincy - 385, 367, 337, 396, 399 <--High again
Sydonia - 255, 251, 240, 253, 237

From all the information above we can be sure of the following things:

Quincy does more damage to Devil Armor and Devil Shield than anyone else in the party
Quincy does an amount of damage that we would expect to Veteran Soldiers
Something is causing Quincy to do more damage to these specific enemies
The extra damage is not caused by higher stats (they are similar to sydonia's)
The extra damage is not caused by runes or rune pieces (he has none)
The extra damage is not affected by armor (this time round none was used, but testing with armour gave very similar results)
The position Quincy is in has no effect (tried all 6 positions)

So I'm really unsure of what is causing this... I have one idea and its pretty far fetched; Quincy's weapon is called 'Holy Thunderbolt' and the enemies he does extra damage to are called 'Devil Shield/Armor', is there some built in weapons elemental formula that we don't know about???

I'd be grateful if anyone would go through it, or test it themselves and post any results.

Post by **KFCrispy** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:14 pm

interesting. i'd like to know if there are more characters/enemies relationships that have similar outcomes.. but that is kinda too much work.

would you mind trying Quincy in other areas or more characters fighting the Devil enemies? -_-

i guess i can actually load up my S1 stuff sometime and try things out. but it's gonna wait..

Celsis · Post by **Celsis** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:38 pm

may I ask how exactically you got your hero to lvl 99 as you say? if it was through a ton of gameplay then sure, but any in game tricks with lvls, wouldn't the hero be too high in lvl by then? I'm not sure if there are any in game trick lvls early on though. Perhaps the use of a Fortune rune? I dunno.

Lechium · Post by **Lechium** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:41 pm

real question would be -- why do you level up when your heros is lvl 99 and others are lvl80ish?
1 turn kill on final boss? But Stallion is hardly suitable for that...

Soul Eater · Post by **Soul Eater** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 4:11 pm

I levelled my hero up to 99 at Mt. Tigerwolf at the start, I did that so any characters that joined that had a level based on the heros would also be on a high level.

In order to get all the levels I did a trick where I jammed the control pad in a certain position in certain parts of some dungeons, this makes the hero walk up-down (from holding left/right) and had X on auto, so the game is automatically fighting for you. I did this at regular intervals throughout the game.

I did this for all characters that are carried over into suikoden II, then I decided to level up some others. Sometimes if there was an item in a place where I couldn't do the trick I would do it manually (like at pannu yakuta). So basically I got all the S2 characters levels maxed ready for my save on that, then I decided that I wanted to perfect my save of suikoden 1, so I leveled up others, like Quincy.

Celsis - There are a couple of level-up tricks that I know of. One at the start that takes the hero straight to level 20, another straight after Sharazade that takes any character with a fortune rune equipped from level 39 to 79. This meant that I only had to get 20 levels for each person I did this trick on (which was 2/3 of the army).

KFCrispy - I will research some more tonight and tomorrow and then post it. If my far out theory of weapon elements is true then a) Quincy should be good against other demonic enemies and b) other characters with an elemental-sounding weapon would be strong against certain enemies (e.g. Alen's sword vs. the plant enemies around scarleticia).

Post by **KFCrispy** » Mon Aug 16, 2004 10:44 pm

boy, all this weird stuff coming from the first, most basic game O_o

Soul Eater · Post by **Soul Eater** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:05 am

Ok I'm 75% of the way through testing, and I'd say it's almost definite that my theory of weapon elements is correct. The Alen/Plant enemy idea also showed extra damage. Also may other combos have.

One thing I noticed is that Quincy didn't do extra damage to most other undead/evil enemies, but he did do damage to metal/robotic enemies, so I'm thinking his attack element is lightning, coming from the 'Thunderbolt' part of his weapon's name.

I'll post the full results in 2-3 hours.

Post by **KFCrispy** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 1:21 pm

wow. i wonder if rune pieces with the same element give them some super bonus! -_-

Soul Eater · Post by **Soul Eater** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 7:02 pm

Sorry I took longer than I said, something unexpected came up.

Anyway, here is the data:

All characters had no runes or armour other than what is fixed.
Cleo had 9 water rune pieces fixed, this may have effected some attacks.

Alen - lvl 58 - ATK 313
Fukien - lvl 56 - ATK 213
Flik - lvl 99 - ATK 337
Quincy - lvl 99 - ATK 308
Luc - lvl 99 - ATK 193
Cleo - lvl 99 - ATK 319
Clive - lvl 99 - ATK 344
Sonya - lvl 68 - ATK 317
Grenseal - lvl 58 - ATK 290
Hellion - lvl 59 - ATK 153

All damage stats are the average of ten attacks, stats in bold are significantly higher than expected:

Devil Armor
Alen - 265
Fukien - 156
Flik - 271
Quincy - 377
Luc - 133
Cleo - 284
Clive - 292
Sonya - 268
Grenseal - 327
Hellion - 129

Veteran Soldier
Alen - 266
Fukien - 153
Flik - 282
Quincy - 263
Luc - 132
Cleo - 274
Clive - 288
Sonya - 271
Grenseal - 260
Hellion - 131

Mad Ivy
Alen - 437
Fukien - 172
Flik - 317
Quincy - 417
Luc - 133
Cleo - 280
Clive - 321
Sonya - 285
Grenseal - 402
Hellion - 158

Death Machine (Kouan)
Alen - 263
Fukien - 147
Flik - 268
Quincy - 354
Luc - 125
Cleo - 252
Clive - 278
Sonya - 246
Grenseal - 338
Hellion - 116

Hell Unicorn
Alen - 242
Fukien - 150
Flik - 278
Quincy - 239
Luc - 131
Cleo - 263
Clive - 294
Sonya - 274
Grenseal - 228
Hellion - 123

Rock Buster
Alen - 218
Fukien - 124
Flik - 249
Quincy - 325
Luc - 100
Cleo - 238
Clive - 252
Sonya - 225
Grenseal - 286
Hellion - 92

Wyvern
Alen - 233
Fukien - 123
Flik - 391
Quincy - 215
Luc - 109
Cleo - 227
Clive - 410
Sonya - 223
Grenseal - 208
Hellion - 96

Killer Slime
Alen - 439
Fukien - 186
Flik - 455
Quincy - 267
Luc - 158
Cleo - 294
Clive - 478
Sonya - 285
Grenseal - 260
Hellion - 154

Siren
Alen - 269
Fukien - 164
Flik - 421
Quincy - 256
Luc - 144
Cleo - 274
Clive - 455
Sonya - 279
Grenseal - 250
Hellion - 135

Kerebos
Alen - 248
Fukien - 145
Flik - 266
Quincy - 234
Luc - 125
Cleo - 386 due to water rune pieces?
Clive - 290
Sonya - 361
Grenseal - 217
Hellion - 149

What do you make of this data?

Post by **KFCrispy** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:23 pm

hey what element do you think Clive and Flik have?? i would guess Flik has natural lightning but it looks like wind (cuz of Clive's wpn?)

Kuromimi · Post by **Kuromimi** » Tue Aug 17, 2004 11:42 pm

I noticed something similar awhile ago. Have Lorelai attack all the enemies in the Lorimar area. I seem to recall her dealing more damage than everyone else in the group to one of the enemies there. I'm thinking it was the Golem-type enemy. Not entirely sure on that one. If so, then I suppose she shares the same element as Quincy and Grenseal.

Post by **Vextor** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:01 am

If Clive is wind, Luc should do more damage, but he doesn't.

Soul Eater · Post by **Soul Eater** » Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:58 am

SARSadmin wrote:If Clive is wind, Luc should do more damage, but he doesn't.

Thats what I was thinking. All I can guess at is that maybe only certain characters have elements, and they may have only bothered with it for physical fighters as magicians aren't going to attack much. That would explain why the three weak rod users that I tested had no elemental advantages.

Going by the names of their weapons, and the enemies that they damage I think it's safe to say that Quincy and Grenseal are both lightning elemental.

I think Clive must be wind (I chose him becuase of his weapon's name, Storm) and seeing as Flik matches his I guess he must be too. I do remember on my previous saves clive doing extra damage to flying enemies and sometimes flik doing more damage than the hero when he shouldn't.

I think Sonya is probably water (her weapons name is royal blue), she does use water magic when you fight her, she does extra damage to an enemy made of fire, and the only other person who did had 9 water rune pieces.

Alen alone seems to be fire, backed up by his extra damage to ivy, and the fact that if the elemental thing is true for grenseal it woul almost definitley be the same for him.

Here is what I think the enemies weaknesses are (I haven't found an 'earth' person yet so the "none" people may have a weakness against that) :

Devil Armor - lightning
Veteran Soldier - none?
Mad Icy - lighning + fire
Death Machine - lightning
Hell Unicorn - none
Rock Buster - lightning
Wyvern - wind
Killer Slime - fire + wind
Siren - wind
Kerebos - water

I suppose the next step would be to test more people and more enemies, and to confirm elemental weaknesses by casting spells on them, but that will take a while.