[FAQ] Natural Elemental Damage / Weapon Rune Pieces

[thecasualoblivion]

I could test this fairly easily. I have a game save previous to the final attack on Gregminster, where I have 108 stars and no required party members other than McDohl. Every character is at least level 52, and no higher than McDohl at 59. Everyone's weapon is sharpened to 16, and I have not equipped a rune piece on anyone. Since I haven't equipped any, I have a pile of rune pieces to equip later, at least one of each type.

Things to test for:

1. Test using magic spells of Fire/Earth/Wind/Lighting for control purposes. I don't know what elements anyone is, so the spells are the only sure thing. I don't like the idea of attaching rune pieces for test purposes, since I don't know if the rune piece cancels an element the character already had, or gives it two elements.

2. I have to attach a water rune piece to someone, since its the only sure source of water damage. I have to find four monsters that are weak to one of the other four elements and none of the others. Find a character that can attack all four of those monsters without getting an attack bonus from any of them. Put a water rune piece on that character(who cares if they already have water elemental damage, since thats what I'm testing for), and then have that character attack those monsters again to make sure none of them are weak to one of the other four elements AND water. If necessary, I would find another control monster if one of my four was also weak against water. Then, using spells and my water rune piece equipped character, find a monster that is weak to water and only water.

3. Test at least all commonly used characters against the five control monsters to see who gets innate elemental bonuses. I wouldn't save after my testing for water elemental weakness so that character's water rune piece would be removed.

4. Last of all I would equip a rune piece to a character with a known and different elemental attack, to see if the rune piece cancels the previous element, or gives the character two.

[PieroZ]

Going by the names of their weapons, and the enemies that they damage I think it's safe to say that Quincy and Grenseal are both lightning elemental.

If what you are speaking is truth then ... what damage Flik would deal to Odessa ?

[rnoron]

also do some tests with Kirkis. i remember he was doing unusually high damage to some enemies while u had to take him along.

[KFCrispy]

here's some food for though.. i'm playing Vandal Hearts (another Konami game) right now and there are classes with strengths/weaknesses vs other classes. this makes me wonder if class or weapon type has something to do with this extra damage.

[KFCrispy]

i definitely confirm that characters have natural elements on their weapon.
the Elemental Rune Pieces indeed change the attackers' attack element......

enemy: Giant Snail, pdf ~21-26. halves Fire magic damage. weak vs Wind (2x dmg)
McDohl atk = 63 / dmg = 38
McDohl atk = 70 / dmg = 43
*Ted atk = 58 / dmg = 51 (enemy defense ~6-7?? or % atk/dmg bonus?)
*Ted atk = 64 / dmg = 58
!! Ted w/Water Rune Piece 1.. atk = 64 / dmg = 38 - 40
Gremio atk = 58 / dmg = 29
Pahn atk = 66 / dmg = 45
Cleo atk = 55 / dmg = 29
Viktor atk = 91 / dmg = 67
*Odessa atk = 46 / dmg = 33

enemy: Killer Slime, pdf ~32-34. weak vs Fire, Wind (2x dmg)
McDohl atk = 63 / dmg = 31
McDohl atk = 70 / dmg = 37
*Ted atk = 58 / dmg = 36 (enemy defense half?)
*Ted atk = 64 / dmg = 49
!! Ted w/Water Rune Piece 1.. atk = 64 / dmg = 31
Gremio atk = 58 / dmg = 24
Pahn atk = 66 / dmg = 34
Cleo atk = 55 / dmg = 22
Viktor atk = 91 / dmg 58.5
*Odessa atk = 57 / dmg = 34

enemy: Slasher Rabbit, pdf ~11-13. normal vs Fire, Wind magic
McDohl atk = 63 / dmg = 52
Ted atk = 58 / dmg = 45

enemy: Red Soldier Ant, pdf ~6-7. weak vs Fire (2x dmg), normal vs Wind
McDohl atk = 70 / dmg = 63
*Gremio atk = 61 / dmg = 48 (enemy PDF doubled?)
Pahn atk = 69 / dmg = 62
Cleo atk = 58 / dmg = 52
Ted atk = 64 / dmg = 58

enemy: Mosquito, pdf ~9-11. weak vs Fire (2x dmg), normal vs Wind
*McDohl atk = 70 / dmg = 68
Gremio atk = 61 / dmg = 52
*Pahn atk = 69 / dmg = 68
!! Pahn using Boar Rune, atk = 69 / dmg = 128 (atkx2 - 10 = 128, so it seems element-less)
Cleo atk = 58 / dmg = 48
Ted atk = 64 / dmg = 53

enemy: Crow. weak vs Fire (2x dmg), normal vs Wind
the Crow's pdf seems to low to find significant differences

enemy: BonBon. weak vs Fire (2x dmg), normal vs Wind

enemy: Wild Boar. normal vs Fire, Wind

no weapon rune pieces on any character, except i tried giving Ted a Water Rune Piece..

McDohl and Pahn seem to have the same element. McDohl has a decent Water affinity in Suikoden II...
Ted seems to be Lightning just because he is very strong vs the Water Slime but not "weak" vs Sydonia (who is strong vs Fire)

definitely i'm going to try to get to the end of the game with no elemental rune pieces whatsoever... documenting ALL enemies is probably impossible.

the hierarchy of elements is clearly defined many years later in Rhapsodia...
Fire > Wind > Earth > Lightning > Water > Fire
does it apply here?


*** can someone test these enemies for the other elements, lightning, earth?

[KFCrispy]

Sydonia seemed to be a little weak against McDohl and Pahn's normal atks
i found Sydonia is strong vs Fire magic - he was taking exactly half the damage that Varkas took from Flaming Arrows and Firestorm.

magic damage calculations may not match Suikoden II's..
McDohl, MAG 51
Flaming Arrow 125 (V), 62 (S)
Firestorm 175, 87
Cleo, MAG 56
Flaming Arrow 128, 64
Firestorm 178, 89

since Cleo has 5 MAG higher, i'd expect all spells to do 5 pts more damage to at least Varkas (since he seems neutral to Fire), but it only does 3 more for both spells on Varkas, and 2 more on Sydonia.

also, MDEF doesn't seem to come into play for these enemies. the damage formula seems to just be:
(base + MAG/2) x enemyResistance = damage

i'll have fight later enemies since it could be that the low enemies actually have 0 mag and thus 0 mdef (since it seems MDEF = MAG in this game).


on top of this, since Sydonia reduces fire magic, it is likely none of these characters attack with Fire element, as nobody did poor damage on normal attacks. but it might work differently......

[KFCrispy]

This is a complete list of characters with natural elements on their normal attacks.
Normal attacks that hit an enemy who is weak against the element deal 1.5x damage.
Unites and rune command attacks (such as Boar Rune) take advantage of the damage bonus as well.

Any attached elemental Rune Piece replaces any natural element.

Against enemies who are strong against the element, they take normal damage from the Attack.

Fire
Alen

Water
Sonya

Wind
Ted?
Odessa?
Flik
Kirkis
Eileen
Lorelai
Stallion
Krin
Juppo
Sydonia
Sylvina
Meg
Sarah
Rubi
Tengaar
Clive
Fuma

Earth
Blackman

Lightning
Grenseal
Quincy

Non-elemental
McDohl
Gremio
Viktor
Pahn
Cleo
Camille
Tai Ho
Kuromimi
Valeria
Yam Koo
Lepant
Humphrey
Sheena
Kai
Luc
Fu Su Lu
Mina
Antonio
Anji
Varkas
Gon
Hellion
Kanak
Kwanda
Leonardo
Maas
Meese
Sansuke
Sergei
Gen
Kamandol
Lotte
Kimberly
Liukan
Milich
Kasumi
Lester
Kessler
Kage
Ronnie
Mose
Eikei
Kirke
Morrigan
Moose
Fukien
Hix
Pesmerga
Crowley
Kreutz
Milia
Futch
Mace
Griffith
Warren
Kasim

testing was done by attacking a Wild Boar on Dwarf Trail, which is weak against every element, then hitting enemies who are only weak against a specific element. For Sonya, it was a process of elimination that resulted in concluding she has Water.. i'm working on finding enemy elemental affinities and will be able to completely verify her Water attribute once i find an enemy who is weak against Water.

[KFCrispy]

hmmm the Wind Rune Piece is dealing extra damage to enemies weak vs Earth Magic, and Earth Rune Pieces are dealling more damage to enemies weak to Wind Magic.

i believe...... the programming for Wind Rune Piece and Earth Rune Piece was switched! that's why Wind Rune Pieces adds to PDF while Earth Rune Piece adds to Skill. generally, "wind" characters in all suikoden games are great with Skill/Tech/Accuracy, while "earth" characters are tanks.


**The Boar on Dwarf Trail is weak against ALL elements. Find out who may have an element by testing against the Boar. the Boar seems to have around 40 DEF. Anybody with an element on their weapon will do 1.5 the expect damage, so if your attack is 140 and have any element, you will deal around 150 instead of 100.

[Celes]

i believe...... the programming for Wind Rune Piece and Earth Rune Piece was switched

Speaking of it... exactly these two rune pieces are switched at the character stone tablet. It shows in both cases the other (wrong) type...


celes

[KFCrispy]

unites gain the damage boost from the characters with elemental strengths.

[KFCrispy]

the list of natural elements is complete! see above

[highwind44029]

Interesting. Only Kasumi and Quincy are L-range characters that don't have Wind affinity.

[Ellyos]

I kow it's an old topic but well...

I confirm Odessa and Ted weapon as wind as natural element.

I add Star Dragon Sword and Fukien have resurrection element in their data but when I test it's not visible, so this element on weapon damage doesn't seem to work, even if it was wanted.

[Celes]

Hmm, the list could be added to the initial lv/equipment guide

I'm wondering whether the Fire and Thunder rune pieces have any additional effect, like Water, Earth and Wind, besides switching the element. If they don't, is it - for example - useless to add a Fire Rune piece to Alen, or more than one Thunder Rune piece to any character?

[Ellyos]

I heard it added damages but personally with my McDohl and 3 thunder rune pieces attached I've never seen the difference :/

And I don't know where to find 'in fight' data like regen property, counter rate, evade rate, damage calculation etc... I'm trying to understand assembler code but well... I have some difficulties to read it.