Why Cleo is the most useful mage

[CameoChic444]

Luc and Crowley will have a magic stat of above 200 but their' other stats make them FAR too vulnerable.

Eileen, Hellion and Tengaar have at least 180 magic by level 60, but why use them when they are pretty much one-trick characters?

Cleo has the highest magic she can have without her physical stats taking a nose-dive.

Several characters have about the same magic as her, but because of her starting stat, she will usually come 1st or joint 1st in this group - a very nice position of about 6th of the 70 or so characters. Anyway, here is why she is better than the characters who have a magic stat of 160-170:

Sheena - a very balanced character but has several problems. His skill is average, which means he tends to miss more than alot of others - His luck doesn't seem to help him here. He also has about Cleo's hp and DEF but can't equip the same helm as she can. He is therefore much more vulnerable as he must attack from the front row. comes equipped with a lightning rune, which you can't remove. This makes him less versatile and means he doesn't have access to the most powerful spells in the game. His magic tends to average 162 by 158 and can be a bit lower. Personality sucks and his magic, aswell as his other stats are decimated in the second game.

Lotte/Mina - Obviously not very balanced. Mina can but will not always exceed 160 by 158.

Milich - Horrible personality and image!!!! - That said solid stats overall and good armour level. His speed and skill are average and his luck is less than awful. His magic is usually about 162 by lvl 58.

Granseal - Less speed and alot less skill than Cleo. Also a front-liner but good armour level. Similar stats overall - many could go either way but he usually ends up with less magic than her.

Rubi - VERY similar stats - Magic is usually much the same - In an faq I noticed that at level 99, they both had 195 magic. Cleo can equip a slightly better helm but Rubi's weapon is slightly stronger. Rubi has atrocious luck and about 15 less def than Cleo, so she is better than him in my book.

[True Wind Bearer]

I agree that Cleo is an excellent character, but was the point of this thread just for you to state that?

[CameoChic444]

Well I suppose so, yes - Other people have written about their favourites and I just wanted to show how Cleo was, to whatever degree, different from characters who are quite similar to her. Others have also mentioned that the first game is much less involved than the others, which is largely true - However if you consider runes, weapon type, armour level etc etc, then you can discern between the good and the very good.

[True Wind Bearer]

Hmm, ok, but expect this thread to be blocked, unless the mods consider it ok.

[Red Killey]

I'll leave this open because it interests me in having a discussion with reasons instead of just based on favoritism. So let's start.

Luc and Crowley will have a magic stat of above 200 but their' other stats make them FAR too vulnerable.

I agree that they have low DEF that makes them vulnerable, but it's not really that big of a deal actually. They can take damage either from magic attack or physical attack. With their high MAG stat, magic from enemies wouldn't really trouble them. So the problem is the physical attack, but even so, I doubt that they could be killed in 1 hit and most bosses attack with magic anyway. Hence, there would be enough time to heal them between turns if needed (since a good balanced party would include a healer anyway). With Crowley having "hidden boost" of magic (stated by Murayama), I think Crowley is still topping the list of the mages in Suikoden 1. While he cannot contribute as much as Cleo on physical attack, his superiority in magic makes up the gap and still make him better choice in a mage IMO.

Eileen, Hellion and Tengaar have at least 180 magic by level 60, but why use them when they are pretty much one-trick characters?

While I agree that Hellion is indeed a one trick pony, I disagree with Eileen and Tengaar, especially the latter. Tengaar is pretty much a slower Cleo with slightly higher MAG. So there isn't much difference other than the speed. And speed isn't really important when we're talking about a magician. With the fact that Tengaar has a bit higher MAG than Cleo, it could've been said that Tengaar ended up better than Cleo because we are comparing them as magicians.

But all in all, Tir McDohl is still the most useful mage in the game, though Crowley is the best IMO.

[True Wind Bearer]

I agree with everything you said, Red Killey.
By the way, Cleo was one of my fave characters when equipped with a Rage Rune.

[Shirofan]

Useful is a term that requires clarification before it can be fully considered.

People will find different characters useful in different ways. If their criteria for judging mages is solely based on how potent they are when it comes to boss fights and the like then the higher stat ones will win out; but if they want characters who can attack then they will come to another conclusion.

Personally I like the long range mages who can do physical damage more than the short range slot occupiers; I used Cleo with a Flowing Rune because I knew she could do a reasonable amount of damage when healing was not required.

Tengaar is fairly similar in style to Cleo, but the difference in Magic is enough to mean that she ends up with an extra level 4 slot by the end stages of the game; now it becomes more important which one you take, unless you take both.
Of this group it is Eileen and Meg who easily get pushed aside with the lower or less important stats.

Your analysis of Sheena ignored his use of shields which compensate for the lack of being able to wear the best helmet.
But of this group I find Grenseal the most useful, especially at Shazarazade because he comes with the Thunder Rune and any others are not available at this time; that makes the two bosses here easier.

As for the short range ones, well Luc is stuck with a Guard Robe so he is a liability if placed in the front row, even Crowley has a better survival rate so should be the pick anyway. Personally I only ever use Hellion of this group, and only for one section: recruiting the pirates, as her Mother Earth Rune gives her a couple of uses of Earthquake that speeds the process up.

When you get down to Rubi and Sarah then they are still back row characters, but by now their physical stats are outweighing the magical ones.
As a result they can often do more damage in random encounters but are less useful in boss situations where your magic is called upon.

However, Suikoden is easy enough for some people to consider using a party where Flik is the best mage, other than McDohl, in the group.

[Agremsep]

Hm, I created a thread about Georg Prime not too long ago, so I do not see any reason for this thread to be closed.

As for Cleo, yeah, during the last parts of the game, she is often forgotten when we got characters like Crowley, Pesmerga, Luc, any of the 4 Great Generals, Alan, Grenseal, or etc etc.

Well actually, she is surprisingly strong. I was testing out the Pretty Woman Attack (correct me if I am wrong), where you need Valeria/Sonya, Eileen and Cleo. Her MAG is surprisingly high and she packs a good punch too. She's in the back row, decent HP, DEF and MDEF. Quite a good speed and ya, although there is no rune affinity system in the game, but she rocks with the Rage Rune.

Clearly an underestimated character.

[Red Killey]

Nah, I wouldn't call Cleo as an underestimated character. She is quite popular, especially since you get her very early in the game and practically with you all the time until the end.

[CameoChic444]

Just to clarify that although Sheena looks like he could use a shield, he can't.

Anyway, perhaps I should have said that Cleo is the most balanced mage - While I agree that Tengaar obviously has a better magic stat and her def is surprisingly good, physically she is alot weaker than Cleo - power, weapon level, armour, def - but is still the best uber mage in the game as she is fairly balanced.

If you compare her to characters in other games with similar magic she fares very well. Rina averages early 160's magic for me but is not very balanced - her affinities aren't great either - I would like to think that Cleo would have good affinities if it applied in this game - she was given a fire rune, which at least suggests an affinity there. In the third game, I think Queen, Yumi, Lucia etc average about 162, so Cleo would beat them and be only a few points weaker than Yuiri, Joker etc, but with much better stats overall (I think they average 176). I noticed that Joker and Cleo were born in the same year, which is pretty cool.

As for Cleo being overlooked - I think some consider her boring as with Victor, Flik, Pahn, Gremio - because you are forced to use them for much of the game. She also doesn't really have any exceptional stats, like Luc or Crowley - They are more fun to use than most, if more impractical.

I dislike a character who has too many stats under 140 by level 60- Cleo only has luck, which doesn't seem to do her any damage at all. Her skill, aswell as her magic, can break 170 by level 60 - meaning that she has more than her fair sure of criticals and hardly ever misses. Her physical stats are nice, she's fast - ( about 190 if you level her to 99), takes physical and magic damage well etc. She is less vulnerable on the back row, a fact which also makes her more versatile.

Just as important to be is her personality - she leads much of the action quietly, without taking any credit - Pahn fights for honour and glory, Gremio gives up his life in a blaze of glory(ok it was a big sacrifice but still)- she leads the way when Gremio panics, encourages Hix, persuades Sonya when she is in jail, semi-flirts with Victor and Pahn. She can be wise, playful, indignant, mournful - In fact I would go so far as to say that she is about the most "fleshed-out" character in the game - not half as one-dimensional as Flik or Gremio. She is not a victim/harpy like tengaar or an extension of her man like Eileen or sylvina and can lead or follow. You even learn that she isn't a morning person - how random is that! She is the best magic-user in the beginning of the game, she has no weaknesses and alot to recommend her. She can also be protected by Pahn, a very useful character, and can protect the main character. Her team is also very useful in the large-scale battles - From memory they are the second best archery unit and then joint second in magic.

If we are considering balanced mages then you can't go wrong.

[Red Killey]

Well now the problem is that it's purely based on our luck that we get the stats. So even if your Cleo ended up having higher stats than X, if they have the same growth, then it's just because you were lucky enough to get it. It doesn't mean that she has higher stat than X.

[CameoChic444]

That can be true, but the reality is different. I have probably played suikoden 1 about 20 timesover the years and there is quite a bit of variation but most stats won't vary too much - e.g the last 4 times I have played the game, Cleo has ended up with 143 - 145 power at 60. Characters can come in at different levels andstats can vary around the same level - Rubi's skill, speed and magic can all vary considerably but will always be around the 160's by level 60.

It states in the faqs that characters start with a score from 10 - 14 in general but look at the starting stats in suikoden 1 - Pahn starts off with a much lower magic score etc etc. Most stats don't vary all that much, so you can generalize quite a bit.

[True Wind Bearer]

Pahn's magic stat doesn't matter, you shouldn't worry about that.
But you should worry about Cleo's attack. It's great as it is but it could still use some increasing.

[CameoChic444]

In my mind 140 is the cut off point for "good" - so Cleo's power just makes it into the very competent but nothing special category - I'm sure it could level up to be better but alot of people are in the 140's who don't have her other stats (e.g. Hix etc) - Tengaar doesn't even make 110 and her magic isn't that much better than Cleo's. Cleo's weapon is 150 - like most fighters - but her skill and therefore criticals will make her attack better than most - I'd rather have a character who is good and hardly misses, than an uber powerful character like Victor who probably misses half the time.

Cleo may have the same magic growth as others but starts at 21, allowing her to hit 170, while they average 162 or whatever. Referring to what I have said before, the lowest I've got with Cleo is 166/7 at level 60, and that's when her skill was great but her magic didn't develop well - so law of averages prevailing, she will have a better magic stat than all/most in her category.

Cleo's luck also starts as high as her skill - 20 - but develops horribly. I think it would be around the same level as Victor's skill - 84 or so - but always makes it into the 90's because it starts so high.

About Tengaar - I do really like her but what spoils her for me is her performance in the second game - her magic is downgraded by about 20 points from memory, and she loses her very nice skill. She is virtually a clone of Rina, but she doesn't get 3 rune slots!!!!! - although she has better affinities than Rina. In this game she is special and in the second mundane. I know this is kind of irrelevant in this game but it bugs me anyway.

[AlphaSigmaOne]

Cleo is one of my favorites, but I don't think she is any more or less valuable than any of the other mages.

Elieen: The funny thing here is, individually the members of the Lapant family are fairly mediocre on their own (Save Sheena perhaps.), but collectively I think they make the best "trio" in the game.

Hellion: I like her, and earthquake is nice--I like to put her in the party in Moravia in the first position with Kirn having the spark rune. Earthquake makes quick work of the enemies there and since she has a lot of them, it's no big deal. Unfortunately, however, the big drawback is there is no Canopy Defense (Best spell in the series IMO) in this game. Otherwise she would get mega-props for that.

Tengaar: Even though there technically isn't affinities in this game, I still like to think she has one with water and give her the Flowing Rune. So by default, this makes her the best healer in the game. Plus, when Hix is added into the equation she's that much better.

Luc and Crowley: I slightly prefer Luc because of his extra speed. He makes getting up Gregminster Castle a breeze. (Err... no pun intended.) I also think this is why I don't like the magic points system in this game. It takes forever to get one level seven (131 I think) and then you get a boat load after that. I like how it's much more balanced in the other games. I mean, by level 55 or so these guys have more level 6 and 7 spells than I know what to do with. So, as I said, you can put Luc in the back row and Storm (another pun ... I'm on a bad pace today) your way up the castle and, if you do need to heal, pull out some Shining Wind. Of course, the only problem here is, this leaves The Shredding for the boss, wich isn't very helpful.

All that said, the nice thing about Cleo is she's great for beginners. She is simple and well rounded; and you have her for most of the game. I myself, had her in my party almost all the time the first time I played the game. I just wish I had knowen about the Rage Crystal in Neclord's Castle.