Mechanics Questions

A forum to ask questions if you are stuck in the The Gate Rune Wars; or wish for more clarity on the gameplay systems.
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wataru14
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Mechanics Questions

Post by wataru14 »

I know people have cracked Suikoden II more deeply than Suikoden 1, but I figured I'd ask. There are a few game mechanics questions that I haven't been able to find the answers to anywhere:

1) what is the percentage chance of success for the Sleep effect of the Beauty Attack?
2) what is the percentage chance of the Phero Rune activating and will it only trigger when the bearer is in critical HP?
3) Does anyone know what the odds of low vs. high number for the each of the stat growth rates at each level up?
Z3R01337
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by Z3R01337 »

No idea on 1 or 2, but 3 is character and stat dependent.
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wataru14
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by wataru14 »

Z3R01337 wrote: Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:02 am No idea on 1 or 2, but 3 is character and stat dependent.
I know that. What I'm asking is if anyone knows the breakdown like the site has for S2.

Example:
Growth Rate 00
Level 2 - 19: 1 to 2 (75% chance for lower score)
20 - 59: 2 to 3 (40% chance for higher score)
STARWIN
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by STARWIN »

1 and 2 are certainly something i could figure out if i had more free time.

For 3 my editor output shows the formulas and values used already:

Stat growth groups

Stats: Growth is (Value + RNG(0-255))/256

group ID | phase 0 | phase 1 | phase 2 (default LV2-19 | LV20-59 | LV60+)

0 ; 242 ;; 172 ;; 98 ;
1 ; 336 ;; 224 ;; 124 ;
2 ; 431 ;; 288 ;; 144 ;
3 ; 525 ;; 364 ;; 144 ;
4 ; 646 ;; 435 ;; 144 ;
5 ; 741 ;; 499 ;; 157 ;
6 ; 835 ;; 563 ;; 177 ;
7 ; 970 ;; 614 ;; 216 ;
8 ; 1118 ;; 672 ;; 249 ;
9 ; 1682 ;; 420 ;; 196 ; (LV2-14 | LV15-59 | LV60+)
10 ; 1050 ;; 352 ;; 164 ; (LV2-14 | LV15-59 | LV60+)
11 ; 714 ;; 608 ;; 492 ;
12 ; 538 ;; 480 ;; 459 ;
13 ; 646 ;; 128 ;; 689 ;
14 ; 94 ;; 140 ;; 2560 ; (LV2-59 | LV60-79 | LV80+)
15 ; 714 ;; 608 ;; 492 ;

--

HP: Growth is (Value + RNG(0-511))/256

group ID | phase 0 | phase 1 | phase 2 (default LV2-19 | LV20-59 | LV60+)

0 ; 835 ;; 1472 ;; 984 ;
1 ; 1145 ;; 1632 ;; 984 ;
2 ; 1441 ;; 1856 ;; 1115 ;
3 ; 1805 ;; 2048 ;; 1181 ;
4 ; 2021 ;; 2304 ;; 1115 ;
5 ; 2236 ;; 2624 ;; 1115 ;
6 ; 2613 ;; 2816 ;; 1115 ;
7 ; 2991 ;; 3008 ;; 1181 ;
8 ; 3368 ;; 3328 ;; 1247 ;
9 ; 5052 ;; 1280 ;; 1312 ;
10 ; 2667 ;; 1152 ;; 984 ;
11 ; 1913 ;; 2496 ;; 2297 ;
12 ; 1077 ;; 1984 ;; 2100 ;
13 ; 2021 ;; 2304 ;; 1115 ;
14 ; 889 ;; 1491 ;; 4365 ;
15 ; 714 ;; 608 ;; 492 ;

Example: Pahn has growth group 0 for MGC, so when he gains level 2, the game rolls (242 + RNG(0-255))/256, which means from 242/256 to 497/256. This is programmer division, so always round down. The probabilities are even. From 242 to 255 you get 0, from 256 to 497 you get 1. 14 0's and 242 1's means 14/256 (~5%) for 0 and 242/256 (~95%) for 1.
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by wataru14 »

Amazing! Thanks!!!
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by Celes »

Which characters are in which groups?
Stat Growth Group 13 looks like it belongs to Gremio.

I assume some groups are not used at all.
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by wataru14 »

9 is Viktor and 13 is Gremio. I know that for sure. As for the rest, I forget who posted it, but I know there is a chart because I downloaded it. I am currently working on compiling the data, but I should have something by the end of the weekend. Starwin's stat growth rates work perfectly. I have checked them against my current save file and they all hit the mark (plus or minus a few points for random variance). I can't seem to get the HP growth to work itself out though. I'll keep at it and let everyone know when I've got something.
Last edited by wataru14 on Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by wataru14 »

UPDATE: I figured out how to get the formula to work. Accounting for random variance here and there, everything meshes with the stats in my save file. I now have a chart for stats and HP that works with the numbers STARWIN provided. I can whip up a full accounting Saturday during the day.
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by wataru14 »

I finished up a little early, so here is the growth values for each rate using Starwin's data and forumla. For stats, the percentage is the chance for the higher number. For HP (since most rates have three possible values), it shows the chance of each of the three. Note that the chance of the middle value is always 50%. At level 1, each character has their own starting values and these might differ from another character whose stats grow at the same rate. After level 1, it's all uniform, however.

STATS
0: Level 2-19 – 0-1 (95%), Level 20-59 – 0-1 (67%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (38%)
1: Level 2-19 – 1-2 (31%), Level 20-59 – 0-1 (88%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (49%)
2: Level 2-19 – 1-2 (69%), Level 20-59 – 1-2 (13%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (56%)
3: Level 2-19 – 2-3 (5%), Level 20-59 – 1-2 (42%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (56%)
4: Level 2-19 – 2-3 (52%), Level 20-59 – 1-2 (70%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (56%)
5: Level 2-19 – 2-3 (89%), Level 20-59 – 1-2 (95%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (61%)
6: Level 2-19 – 3-4 (26%), Level 20-59 – 2-3 (20%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (69%)
7: Level 2-19 – 3-4 (79%), Level 20-59 – 2-3 (40%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (84%)
8: Level 2-19 – 4-5 (37%), Level 20-59 – 2-3 (63%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (97%)
9: Level 2-14 – 6-7 (57%), Level 15-59 – 1-2 (64%), Level 60+ - 0-1 (77%)
13: Level 2-19 – 2-3 (52%), Level 20-59 – 0-1 (50%), Level 60+ - 2-3 (69%)

HP
0: Level 2-19 – 3-5 (37/50/13), Level 20-59 – 5-7 (13/50/37), Level 60+ – 3-5 (8/50/42)
1: Level 2-19 – 4-6 (26/50/24), Level 20-5 – 6-8 (31/50/19), Level 60+ – (8/50/42)
2: Level 2-19 – 5-7 (19/50/31), Level 20-59 – 7-9 (37/50/13), Level 60+ – 4-6 (19/50/31)
3: Level 2-19 – 7-9 (47/50/03), Level 20-59 – 8-9 (50/50), Level 60+ – 4-6 (19/50/31)
4: Level 2-19 – 7-9 (5/50/45), Level 20-59 – 9-10 (50/50), Level 60+ – 4-6 (19/50/31)
5: Level 2-19 – 8-10 (13/50/37), Level 20-59 – 10-12 (37/50/13), Level 60+ – 4-6 (19/50/31)
6: Level 2-19 – 10-12 (40/50/10), Level 20-59 – 11-12 (50/50) , Level 60+ – 4-6 (19/50/31)
7: Level 2-19 – 11-13 (16/50/34), Level 20-59 – 11-13 (13/50/37), Level 60+ – 4-6 (19/50/31)
8: Level 2-19 – 13-15 (42/50/8), Level 20-59 – 13-14 (50/50, Level 60+ – 4-6 (6/50/44)
9: Level 2-19 – 19-21 (13/50/37), Level 20-59 – 5-6 (50/50), Level 60+ – 5-7 (44/50/6)

As for who has what rate and what the starting values are, those already exist in other posts in the forum. But I can add that data here if desired.
Last edited by wataru14 on Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by STARWIN »

Who has which growth group is also included in the text file that my editor extracts from the cd image, in the first lengthy section that allows modifying character related variables. And yes there should be unused groups.
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by Affable Peafowl »

As a new user who made an account solely to find this information: thanks so much to both of you for your effort! With STARWIN's editor and wataru14's breakdown of each rate, I can at last get a final accounting of who is good (and bad) at what!

Sorry to necro a semi-old thread, but I figured it'd be better than starting a new one. My question is, has this information been parsed into a guide, or any other equivalent format to serve as an updated version of the suikosource.com stat growth guide? Of course, that guide's rates are accurate, but they don't account for the weighted probabilities within some of the growth rates. I ask because if it's already been done, I'd very much like to get my hands on that info :) And if nobody has done it, I was going to do it for my own purposes - with the info I've been able to get from the hard work of both of you, it shouldn't take too long - so I figured I might as well share the results when I'm done.

Thanks again!

Edit:

All right, I worked out the tiers in a spreadsheet. (No actual character stats yet, I just meant I've translated the 6 ranges, 8 including Viktor and Gremio, in the Suikosource guide into their actual 11 separate rates.) Obviously, I'm not exactly a master of visual design, so pardon how cramped and ugly everything is. I was wondering if anyone got the chance if they might have a glance and let me know if I made any mistakes or not (Edit #2: Edited the link to match the updated spreadsheet, per the 8/27/19 update in my following post)
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

(I don't have any plans of sharing the spreadsheet beyond this forum; if I decide to for whatever reason, I'll obviously do a lot of tidying up with it visually, and of course credit y'all - wataru14 and STARWIN, and the Suikosource stat guide, for the data. But this is mainly for my own reference at this point.)

I'm also posting it because I had one question in particular. I was surprised to see that IDs 1 and 2 will end up gaining roughly the same number of points on hitting Lv59 (~58-59 and ~57-58, respectively). That seems unlikely given the disparity of their final potential Lv99 ranges according to the Suikosource stat guide: 29-128 for rate 1 and 69-167 for rate 2 (or at least the ranges in the guide that correspond to rates 1 and 2), an average difference of somewhere around 40 points. So if that's correct, it's impossible for both rates to see gains of ~55-60 points by Lv59 like I determined.

Did I just screw up the math somewhere? Or is the guide mistaken for rate 2? I suppose it's the latter because the guide mistakenly lists the growth rate as 1-2 for both Lv1-19 and Lv20-59, when in actuality it's 0-1/1-2 as determined by you guys. I'm sure it's simple to spot where I've gotten lost in the arithmetic, but I'm a bit brain-fogged after rolling around in numbers for this long so I'm having a tough time working it out lol.

The fact that most characters don't start at Lv1 obviously plays into it, many/most probably don't even start under 20 so the 1-19 rate probably never comes into play for them, unless the game uses that to determine their starting stats when they join you at level X.

If anyone can clear up the confusion I'd be much obliged! Many thanks in advance.

Edit 2: Looking at the stat guide further, it seems like the guide conflates both rate 1 (1-2/0-1) and rate 2 (0-1/1-2). For the characters who have a stat with the Lv99 range 69-167, a growth rate of 1-2/1-2 is given, but this actually isn't one of the rates used in the game. The guide does use rate 1 correctly to come up with the 29/30-127/28 range, i.e. Clive's Luck. Properly applying rate 2 as a substitute for the guide's non-existent 69-167 range gets a min of 40 (+0 Lv2-19, +40 Lv20-59, +0 Lv60-99) and a max of 138 (+1 Lv2-19, +2 Lv20-59, +1 Lv60-99). That's without initial Lv1 values added, so to compare, I'll subtract the Lv1 value from Clive's Luck, for a correct rate 1 range of 18-116.

So next to the correct rate 2 range of 40-138 the math is starting to clear up. It gives us a Lv59 range of 18-76 for rate 1 and 40-98 for rate 2. So I guess, given how the values are weighted, +55-60 for both rates 1 and 2 by Lv59 makes sense. It still doesn't seem intuitive that a 29-128 value and a 40-138 value would be about the same at Lv59, but it's easier to imagine than if the latter were 69-167, and then again it just goes to show why the ranges aren't particularly meaningful because of how the stat gain probabilities are weighted. I'm still not sure how initial stats on recruitment are calculated, I assume the game just "simulates" the level-ups from Lv1 until whatever the level is at which the character joins.

But regarding rates 1 and 2 it seems fair to conclude that despite their different min-max values, neither is meaningfully better than the other. Problem solved, I think? :lol:
Last edited by Affable Peafowl on Tue Aug 27, 2019 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by wataru14 »

Simple answer: it's a typo. 2 should be 1-2 (69%) not 0-1. I cut and pasted wrong.

I will fix it now.
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Re: Mechanics Questions

Post by Affable Peafowl »

Ha, not sure why that possibility didn't occur to me, I thought it was a pretty quirky design choice. 1-2/1-2 does give the rates a nice bell curve (in terms of growth, at least, I dunno about character distribution) that peaks at the average 4 tier.

Thanks a bunch again, it's really awesome to have all this info after being a hardcore fan of the game for the last 20+ years. If I ever end up turning the spreadsheet into anything neat/useful I'll post an update for the sake of anyone who stumbles across this thread through Google like me!

EDIT, 8/27/19: Did the math for Gremio's 13 HP rate real quick because I was curious, hopefully I didn't screw anything up but I'll add it to the topic just for the sake of completeness, even though I highly doubt there are any hardcore Gremio fans out there itching for his HP growth rate :lol:

HP:
13: Level 2-19 – 7-9 (5/50/45), Level 20-59 – 9-10 (50/50), Level 60+ – 4-6 (32/50/18)

It's interesting that, assuming I didn't make any mistakes, Gremio's 13 rate ID uses different probability weights for the HP gains but still ends up with an expected Lv59 HP total identical to another ID - 531.2 expected HP, the same as PWR/HP ID 4 in this case. I say that because Viktor's unique 9 PWR/HP ID, similarly, uses completely unique, front-loaded ranges for PWR, but his expected PWR at Lv59 is also identical to another ID's (183.86, same as ID 8.) So while Viktor's HP and Gremio's PWR are both completely unique, Viktor's PWR and Gremio's HP on the other hand both "mimic" other rates/IDs (same eventual totals but with very different growth rates).

Speaking of expected HP at Lv59, I expanded the original spreadsheet to include the HP data, and a list of all the characters and their stats' growth IDs/groups, so it'll be here for the reference of anyone who ever comes looking for this sorta info. I also included a page that includes all the 7 and 8 ratings, just as a quasi-useful reference. Here's the latest spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
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