Boss battles suggestion

[Punkaiser]

Although I recorded my own team recommandations in youtube playlist. I still want to hear more suggestions from community so i can optimize my goal and remake those videos if necessary.

I consider these are boss battles for discussion: (starting with Gigantes since we almost can't customize anything for the previous boss fights)

1. Gigantes
2. Dragon (pannu yakuta)
3. Anji, Leonardo, Kanak
4. Neclord
5. Crystal Core
6. Shell Venus
7. Sonya
8. Ain Gide
9. Golden Hydra

Note:
-team idea must base on damage/support potential, please don't suggest anything because you think it's interesting.
-the team MUST be efficient in boss battle but also have to ensure a fairly easy deal in random encounters.( to avoid choices of full mages pt who may easily demolish bosses but have a hard time with regular battle: hellion, luc, crowley,mina..etc..)

Let's start one by one, with Gigantes and Dragon first, after we all agree with each other, then we can move on the next one.

[ninjaluc79]

My general rule in dealing with boss battles in the Suikoden series is to have at least one offensive mage and one supportive mage, two if one is not enough. The rest are physical damage dealers.

It is also important to know the bosses' elemental weaknesses and strengths so you know what runes are you going to use for your offensive mages. Water runes are also a must for healing purposes. Wind runes are pretty good too, especially if you can get the Cyclone Rune, which has the Shining Wind spell. The rest are strictly for exploiting elemental weaknesses and occasional use against hard-to-decimate normal mobs.

I'm not going to suggest characters for each boss fight, only party setups because I want to leave the parties you use at your discretion.

Dealing with mobs on the way to the boss: Tir's Unite with Kai is very useful in dealing with packs of mobs on the way to the boss until Tir gets the Soul Eater's Level 3 spell, Hades. Although Kai by himself isn't really somebody a powergamer would bring along. Runes with lower-tier spells targeting all enemies usually helps too. Otherwise, just hack your way through all the mobs and you will be fine by the time you get to the boss.

1. Gigantes - You can actually pick pretty much anyone for this mission, but Wind and Lightning Mages are a must because this guy is weak against Wind and Lightning. And of course, Water Mages for healing. Characters with strong target-one Unite Attacks can be helpful in finishing this guy quickly.
2. Dragon - Same deal as Gigantes above, but Lightning mages are out this time because it's strong against Lightning. Water Mages as usual.

So my party members are:

- Tir (the hero, of course, Soul Eater is BEAST)
- Kai (his mob-clearing Unite Attack with Tir is always good, but he doesn't do anything much by himself)
- Luc (best mage in the game, but yeah, low DEF and S-ranged mages aren't good if it means you lose one turn in normal battles)
- Gremio (if he's forced into my party as part of the plot; no hate for this guy, though; okay-if-not-decent physical attacks, but suckish on the MDEF department)
- Fliktor (if I can take either of them with me; Viktor's one of the best DDs in the game; Flik's a solid all-rounder, he has it all: physical attacks, magic, etc.)
- Lepant, Eileen, and Sheena (Lepant's a pretty average guy (i.e. not really that weak but not that strong either) with a solid Unite Attack with his family; Eileen's a really nice mage you can get if you get bored of using Luc, and it's good too because she's L-ranged so you can deal physical attacks with her if she doesn't need to cast spells; Sheena's a really nice Mage Knight, but not really at the same level as Flik or Grenseal)

Equipment setups:

- Best possible armors at that point.
- Sharpen weapons to as a high level as possible.
- Choose mages with at least 1 level 4 MP or 2 level 3 MP.
- Physical DDs shall equip *Killer
- Weakest party member (usually Gremio) shall Equip *Holy for dash ability.
- *Spark on the fastest member if you have the rune slot for it so slower characters can attack before the enemies do.
- Parties with high physical damage or with high average speed won't need *Spark.

Strategies:

- Luc casts level 2 and 4 spells with Wind Rune, Healing Wind if he needs to heal, Defend if he doesn't need to do both.
- Flik and Sheena cast spells with Lightning Rune, physical attacks if they don't need to.
- Tir, Kai, Lepant and Gremio attack; use Medicine if they need to.
- Tir spams Black Shadow because Finger of Death and Hades don't work on bosses.
- Eileen heals with Water Rune, normal attack or Unite with Lepant and Sheena if she doesn't need to.

[Punkaiser]

At this point
- Flik hasnt joined the group,
- cyclone rune isn't available
- even lightning rune is rare, 10% drop from zombie dragon or gotta bring sheena along with his permanent lightning rune.
- even luc/eileen can't reach 131 magic to have level 4 spells at level 20s.
- tir is still useless in boss fight because he only has level 1 soul eater.
- valeria/gremio/kirkis are non-removable, including Tir, so we got only 2 members left to choose.

Gigantes is weak againts lightning and wind. Let's look at our available runes:
-1 permanent lightning from Sheena
-1 wind from treasure chest before dragon zombie fight, another one removed from Luc.

Highlight characters at this moment:
-Pahn : unite with non removable gremio for 2x damage
-Kai : unite with tir to wipe out mobs in random battles, normal hit vs gigantes
-Viktor: clone rune+medicine every 2 turns, forced character in next boss fight versus Dragon
-Cleo: decent normal attack in random encounters, good wind mage vs gigantes, very fast
-Eileen: little help in random battles, very good wind mage vs gigantes, very fast.
-Sheena: decent in random battle (front row), very good lightning mage
-Luc: useless in random battle, very useful (as Eileen) in boss battle.
-Taiho/yamkoo: 3x unites every turn with turtle rune equipped.

-Early game, magic deal much more damage than physic, so there's only cleo/eileen/sheena/luc/viktor still stay in competition since we need to enhance his weapon in dwarf village to prepare for the Dragon fight.
-compare lightning to wind rune, at that stage sheena is the only lightning mage and cleo will only have 1x lv spell3 and 3x level 2 spells, so wind rune is winning the hand because of its stable 400 spell damage every turns compare to lightning 600 in first turn then 150 from second turn , so on... so sheena is out
-eileen is more useful than luc in random battles so luc is out
-kirkis must have wind rune so he can be main damage dealer in gigantes and dragon fight later.

In the end, in order to optimize both boss fights, we should pick Viktor and Cleo or Eileen(not both because there's only one wind rune left).

I picked Cleo and Viktor. One thing I missed to do is to stick the thunder rune piece to Valeria instead of Tir at that moment. It's also very good if we can farm an earth rune piece to give wind element to Viktor then he will rock in battle versus gigantes and dragon.

Rune setup:
Gremio: holy rune
Viktor: clone
kirkis/cleo: wind
<i thought about gremio using wind then remove cleo and pick sheena instead but gremio's magic is too low, he couldn't even get any shredding spell yet>

Strategy:
Random encounters: tir/kirkis/gremio.cleo normal hit, viktor uses clone, valeria performs falcon
Gigantes battle: tir/gremio normal hit, viktor uses clone, valeria performs falcon, cleo/kirkis spam the shredding.
no need to heal because the boss will 100% be dead in 2nd turn.

[ninjaluc79]

I chose Kai and Cleo in my first playthrough.

Runes:

Tir - Soul Eater
Gremio - Holy
Valeria - Falcon
Kai - Hazy
Kirkis - Wind
Cleo - Water

Pros:

- Tir's Unite with Kai clears mobs effectively.
- Cleo is pretty awesome as an L-ranged mage.

Cons:

- Kai can't do anything else in boss battles but heal with Mega Meds.

Strategy:

Random Encounters: Tir and Kai spam their Unite, everyone else normally attacks
vs Gigantes and Dragon - Valeria spams Falcon Rune, Kirkis spams Wind spells, Cleo heals with Water spells, everyone else normally attack but heal with Mega Meds if needed.

Notes:

- Party suggestions are always good, as it helps players to choose who to take with them and build different parties based on different play styles.
- The parties for Gigantes and Dragon would most likely be magic-oriented since these bosses have exploitable elemental weaknesses, but it doesn't mean you can't build a physical party for these boss fights.
- You can make Cleo the Water Mage if you wish to build a physical party, or a Wind Mage if you have healers like Eileen or Kirkis if you made him as such.
- For magical parties: 2 Wind Mages = absolute pwnage; 2 Water Mages = no need to worry about dying if you can't kill the bosses fast enough.

So can we move on now with the pirates (Anji, Leonardo, Kanak) and Neclord?

[Punkaiser]

yea sure, the goal is just to show out pros and cons of what characters could do at that point, final decision is up to players.

Anji, Leonardo, Kanak
Forced party: tir/gremio/viktor/flik/taiho

The pirates got no weakness, each of them is strong againts 2 elements be it wind/thunder or fire.
My suggestion would be an earth spam party. Even Viktor and Gremio should have 1x level 2 spell at that moment, the whole party except tir casting voice of earth. I'm sure the battle could end in 2nd turn with no luck needed and there's not even need to hone up characters weapon.

Neclord
tir/viktor/cleo/hix are non removable.

Neclord is strong againts all element except he's weak againts resurrection.

A. For anyonw who care to farm then thre's a very good pt i'd recommend is to take valeria and eileen along.

Rune setup:
viktor: double beat
hix:holy
cleo:resurrection
eileen: resurrection

Strategy:

-normal battle: viktor/hix normal attack, tir normal attack or cast instant kill from SE, the 3 women unite to hit and inflict sleep to enemies.
-boss battle: tir/viktor/hix normal attack, valeria uses falcon, eileen nukes non stop, cleo also nukes or heal with scream depends on situation.

B. For those who hate farming:
A good pt versus Neclord depends heavily on physical attack party.
Highlight characters: Valeria, Ronnie, Taiho/Yamkoo (May think about Fukien with his perma Resurrection rune but he's not really worthy because of his only one available level4 spell at that moment)
I prefer Valeria+Ronnie for separate command in random battles

Rune setup:

viktor: double beat
hix:holy
cleo:flowing

Strategy:
-Regular encounters: viktor/hix/cleo normal attack, tir uses normal attack or cast instant kill from SE. Valeria/ronnie spam their rune.
-Boss fight: tir/viktor/hix normal attack , Valeria/ronnie spam their rune, cleo attacks or casts flowing rune depends on situation.

[Punkaiser]

Crystal Core

Forced members: tir/flik/humphrey/milia

The boss is weak againts earth and water.

At this moment we got many bright members to choose as : krin, kai, cleo, eileen,taiho/yamkoo, luc, hellion .etc.
but in order to optimize all battles at this point, I'd recommend kirkis+rubi.

Rune setup:
flik: earth rune
humphrey: killer/holy + water rune piece
milia: holy/killer rune + wind rune piece(for earth element weapon)
kirkis/rubi: earth rune

Strategy:
-Regular encounters: everyone attacks, kirkis+rubi use their hit all unite
-Boss fight: Flik/kirkis/rubi cast their highest level earth spell every turn(rubi should have one level 4 spell by now), humphrey/milia use normal attack, tir casts black shadow. The boss should be dead in the 3rd turn at worst.

[Punkaiser]

Shell Venus and Sonya Schulen

Shell Venus is weak againts earth and lightning while Sonya is strong againts all elements and these two battles are almost consecutive which make it a tough choice to optimize the party as we can see a magic team should be better vs Shell while a physic team is better vs Sonya. And there're still random encounters to deal with.

Forced members: tir/viktor
set up viktor with lightning rune, tir with lightning rune piece

There're a few team recommendations i think of and class them in order:
1. Kirkis(mother earth),sylvina(lightning),stalion(lightning rune piece),valeria(lightning rune piece)
In random battles : kirkis+stallion unite to hit all and everyone else uses normal attack
vs Shell: spam all the best lighting and earth spells, tir/stalion attacks, valeria spams falcon
vs Sonya: the 3 elves unite for 2x damage, viktor attacks, tir casts judgement, valeria spams falcon

2. hix(mother earth),tengaar(lightning),lepant(lightning),eileen(lightning)
In random battles: hix/tengaar and lepant/eileen unite attack, viktor/tir attack or let tir cast instant kill sometimes
vs Shell: spam all the best lighting and earth spells, tir attacks,
vs Sonya: the two pairs use unite attack, viktor attacks, tir casts judgement,

3. other combo of physical attack team : Valeria, Ronnie, Kobold+1 pack, Fisher Man pair, Blacksmith gang, Bandit pair.

[ninjaluc79]

The only problem with physical oriented teams vs Sonya is that she's fast and loves to spam a nasty spell which could wipe out low-MAG characters in two turns at worst. But I think a Flowing Rune user really helps heal the insane damage inflicted on the party, I guess.

I say balance the team with at least one mage (Earth, Lightning, or Wind), one healer (Water), two if it's not enough; the rest physical DDs.

In my last playthrough, I took Hix, Tengaar, Kai, and Luc.

Hix - Holy
Tengaar - Flowing
Kai - Hazy
Luc - Cyclone

Note my lack of Lightning Runes. I guess Lightning Rune pieces will help on this one.

vs Shell: Hix and Tengaar spam their Unite, Tengaar heals if necessary, Tir casts Black Shadow, Luc spams Cyclone spells, Kai normally attacks.
vs Sonya: Hix+Tengaar Unite, Tengaar heals if necessary, Tir casts Judgment, Luc spams Cyclone spells, Kai normally attacks.

[Punkaiser]

Trust me, because you tend to build balanced team that's why you'd need healer, good offence is the best defence in suikoden.
Among all these bosses, the only battle i agree that we'd need a healer is the one vs Neclord since both his damage potential and survivability are high plus it's hard to exploit his weakness. For all other bosses, if we focus on their weakness, they won't have enough turns to render anyone in critical state.
I'm not sure how many turns your pt will take againts Shell Venus since you ignore his weakness againts earth and lightning, no wonder the battle will last long enough and you feel the need of healer.

Sonya is an offensive type so her attacks seem to be dangerous but much likely vulnerable to tir's judgement and any skill rune/unite attack due to her low hp and she can't dodge them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNmmr2Zn4U0
in this video i forgot to give stalion the lightning rune piece.

Here's my rune pieces optimization throughout the game:
-Tir:lightning rune piece(he will need it to attack shell venus) too bad there was only one piece available before gigantes battle and valeria needs it more than tir.
-Viktor: it's recommended to farm for earth rune piece (he needs it to fight againts gigantes+dragon) since this piece also increse his SKL. Otherwise nvm or just stick fire rune piece to him.
-Valeria: lightning rune piece (for gigantes+shell venus battle)
-Humphrey and Milia: wind rune piece or water rune piece at choice for battle vs crystal core
-Stalion: the last lightning rune piece in game for battling shell venus

[ninjaluc79]

So we differ in general strategy, I guess. I tend to play defensively, but I can play offensively if I can help it. Thus, my tendency to build balanced teams. I think putting at least one healer serves as insurance just in case the boss got a lucky shot on you and spammed its most powerful attacks more than twice in a row.

That or I have never bothered exploiting game-breakers in all the games I have played.

[Punkaiser]

Like i said, i totally agree we need a balanced team to fight a tough boss (againts which we can't rush the win) but againts the others which could be easily defeated before they can really cause much harm, why build a balanced team to make them appear as tough? I know this is about playing style, but however almost any fighters+mages combination will make a balanced party and none will really stand out that way. It makes the game longer and seemingly interesting, but not something I'd call optimisation which is the goal of this thread.

I don't know what do you mean by lucky shot since enemies don't have critical hit but if you mean the boss just focus on a certain character then one mega medicine is more than enough. And even if the boss launch his strongest attack in 2 consecutive turns , that still can't kill anyone who's up to right level, to note that most bosses are dead after 3 turns or less and our characters usually act before bosses, except for sonya but she is too frail with just 4k HP to stand for tir's 2x judgement.

[gildedtalon]

This is such a good guide

[KFCrispy]

please remember there's some awesome potential in Varkas and Sydonia! while their unite is inferior to Tai Ho and Yam Koo's doing 2.5x dmg instead of 3x, it looks so much cooler and they don't require Turtle Runes to unite every round, so they have free rune slots to play with! I usually give Sydonia a Water Rune and Varkas a Holy Rune (if someone else doesn't have it), but due to the high MP count in this game, Earth, Wind, and Water are all fine choices. Sydonia also also has a natural Wind element on his weapon