A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

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Punkaiser
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Wed May 30, 2012 8:08 pm

It's misleading because of the author is no longer active member who currently joinning in the talk.
You may feel like i'm imposiing my idea on you, but you missed the point where and how the debate developped. I'll sum up our disccussion so you can see why you messed thing up:

-Thread starter was mpico suggested to make a mix list as you can see it, but failed to calculate all possibilities and end up being biased towards characters with "nice stats", jacks of all trades same as your case, neglecting everything about unite and unique runes <this is the reason i said you havent followed what we have been discussing at all>.

What i call calculation is about number and score with solid proof, not something you pull out of nowhere and claim it to be right like skill/3 issue. You failed to prove it to me. the only real formula is

Damage dealt = total base power*multiplier*hit rate
with base power= strength stat + weapon power + equipments
Multiplier=possible runes/unites/normal attack with critical 's average performance and weapon element (but we agreed to leave weapon element aside)

There you can see how "nice stats" only take a small plus part in the formula while unites, runes represent in multiplier part.
Yet, you expect me to acknowledge something like Skill/3 in a formula from a math of plus att+power+skill/3??? which is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the real damage concept?

-KFC made his analysis about how unites, runes, stats, magic performance should be considered.
-Everyone at that moment see that'd be too complicated to mix up everything from damage potential from physical and magical performance since each aspect involve other things..
-ninjaluc suggested to divide into roles and rank them separately, that's where we start with physical DD tier which is also the part which consume the most pages of this thread . Since i agreed with his idea so i gave him my support.
-pisuke jumps in and make an analysis with same idea as the original author that he wants to mix things up again but never shown any convincing arguments, absolutely fall in same case as mpico and see the future of this thread? gonna be back to step 1 LOL with Pisuke playing thread starter's role and Punkaiser the villain again.

Unless you show an effective and realistic way to rank precisely with mixed elements, otherwise i won't ever be convinced, What I've been doing here with the guys is to figure way to make several rankings specialised in roles, there'll be physical ranking, magic ranking, and possibly tank ranking. If you feel like i'm too abusing, force my way into you, feel free to show me where did I go wrong! But don't come up with stuff out of nowhere and consider it the truth or logic and force it back to me, I'm servant of logic and numbers, show me some of them then i'll take your idea then.

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Piisuke
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Thu May 31, 2012 3:17 am

You need to elaborate on your multiplier a bit more. I noticed you earlier used Fu Su Lu as an example with a multiplier of x3. What does the x3 entail?

Aside from that, I have a feeling you're completely missing the point I am trying to get across. I am not saying that unites and runes should be ignored. Far from it.
I am saying, however, is that the individual character should take precedence over unites and runes so that when a list is being built, the first thing we look at would be the actual character rank him somewhere and then look at the possibilities with that character, i.e. is he/she included in a unite? If so, how many character are involved in that unite? Does the unite unbalance, therefore limit its usage? The other characters in the unite, are they any good? How much damage does the unite do? What runes can be equipped? Can the character fill in two roles? What equipment can he/she wear? Is the character S/M/L? Etcetera.

As I said, I don't have a way yet, but I think it should at least be considered, as opposed to your outright no.
I'm not saying to ignore unites and runes. I am saying to look at the characters first, make a list on individual characters as a base template, not looking at unites (yet). That way, we have a list of characters on entirely on their own merit, without any outside influence.
If you're using a formula and this results in a number, we can then add numbers for unites, equipment, runes, etc, and substract numbers if they cause things like unbalanced, therefore limiting its usage. The numbers added, shouldn't be too big, else this will cause odd results.

Ninjaluc already said the same thing I did, anybody that is not included in a unite is at a severe disadvantage and if you want to make a proper list, you will look at the characters first and foremost and then look at what makes them stand out, or even move them up, or down a bracket. That is how tiers work. If you start multiplying results for characters that are in fancy unites, you get warped results where Gon, Yam Koo and Camille are God tiers, because of their unites and the ability to equip various runes and it is easy to see, without even making a list, that those results would be incorrect.

Yes, I like stats, the stats are what define a character, it defines how much damage a character does, something you're into. So I am suggesting to look at the stats of the characters first and then add/substract points for unites/runes/equipment/unbalance status.
Characters like Valeria and Kasumi benefit from this the most, due to having unique command runes that doesn't unbalance, but characters like Pesmerga and Clive aren't placed at a disadvantage. They'll be ranked on their own merit. This could mean that we could possibly have a list that could look like this:

God:

Fu Su Lu
Viktor
Valeria
Pesmerga

Pesmerga would be still be shown as a powerful character and stronger than others, BUT he's outclassed by those above him. With your method, we'd see a list like this:

God:

Fu Su Lu
Kuromimi
Gon
Flik
Alan
Grenseal
Camille
Meg
Tai Ho
Yam Koo
Humphrey

----

----

Bottom Tier

Pesmerga
Clive

As for my calculation I made in my other post, dear god, I already explained it once, but let me explain it again:

I pulled nothing out of thin air. The stats are there. It is your own video I got them from. The /3 was because I used three numbers. Aside from that, IT WAS AN EXAMPLE meant as an idea. I already said not to take it literally, but to take it as an idea.
However, it is clear you're refusing to see that your logic is flawed if you start multiplying results by x3. Tiers don't work with multipliers, they work with adding and substracting. If pesmerga were to face Kuromimi, he'd lose, because Kuromimi is ranked the better character, because he's part of a unite that is irrelevant if Kuromimi would be on his own. You need to understand that unites are optional and therefore they shouldn't be the main contributing factor and if you start multiplying, that means it is becoming the main contributing factor, because of the sheer power multiplying has.

Unless you show an effective and realistic way to rank precisely with mixed elements, otherwise i won't ever be convinced, What I've been doing here with the guys is to figure way to make several rankings specialised in roles, there'll be physical ranking, magic ranking, and possibly tank ranking. If you feel like i'm too abusing, force my way into you, feel free to show me where did I go wrong! But don't come up with stuff out of nowhere and consider it the truth or logic and force it back to me, I'm servant of logic and numbers, show me some of them then i'll take your idea then.


Look, I love how you're saying that it is up to me to show you the correct way of doing it, or else you're just going to ignore it forever. I am pointing out flaws in your system and you're saying: "you're wrong, prove me otherwise." I really have told you the same thing several times already, you're just refusing to listen.

If you're, as you put it: "a servant of logic and numbers", you'd look at individual characters and their stats and damage they do individually. That is logic. Those are stats. Those stats are numbers. The damage you see on the screen? Where do you think it comes from? The damage fairies? No, they are based on a calculation made by the game engine, based on the stats of said character. The damage you see in unites? Same story. So why look at unites? Look at the basis. The individual characters. Fu Su Lu only does 3k damage if he's in an unite with two other characters, but if he's on his own, he does nowhere near the same. Just because I don't have a formula for you available, doesn't mean you can just dismiss my argument.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 31, 2012 3:52 am

Oh god, if you can't bring a big rock alone and ask for 2 other guys to help, when you finish the task, is that ok if the judge say : "No, you must bring it back alone and only at that moment, your result could get counted because i can't see what you can do with that rock individually."

this is why i state things are going back to step 1.
hey Mr, stop hitting your keyboard for a while, let me invite you to read from the beginning of the discussion. You will see yourself fit perfectly to mpico's role. Everything you 've proposed was over there and your problem about unbalance blah blah, and we calculated it but you never read. Especially for you, i'd recommend KFC's analysis, lucky he wrote it well so i won't waste my time to do it. Read it, understand it , then you can become keyboard hero again.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12858

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Piisuke
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Thu May 31, 2012 4:04 am

I like how you're still suggesting I didn't read any comment. Look mate, you're becoming rather annoying. If anybody is not reading anything, it seems to be you.

What we're trying to achieve here is identical. The only difference is, our way of getting it. You place major emphasis on unites. I place emphasis on individual characters, but explained that we should be taking unites into account, because they matter, however, I also added that the list shouldn't be based on unites, because that is the assumption that one would pick Fu Su Lu, JUST because they want the unite.

In the end, however, we're trying to achieve the same thing. I suggested alternative ways of doing it and you're throwing it in my face and tell me to read other posts, because you're refusing to accept otherwise. I don't know if you ever made tier lists before, but from your methods, I conclude that you haven't.

I also agree that the initial post is a joke and doesn't make much sense and doesn't take into account any of the possibilities. I am suggesting to build the list, taking everything into account, but put less emphasis on unites to make the list balanced. Stop being so rude, seriously.

However, I am expecting another retort from you, either about "not having read previous comments", or "my typing". Go ahead. Be like that. If you can't discuss things in a polite manner and feel the need to throw quips here and there, then maybe discussion boards aren't the place for you. We're adults here for the love of God.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 31, 2012 4:43 am

If I appear that way to you then I appologize for it. but trufully, you should know that in the other way around, you appear to me just like another mpico, who dont evaluate rightly the weight of factors and refuse to catch what we've been disscussing before. I couldn't help but to ask you to read things that existed rather than repeating it over.

I will try to keep it calm and sum things up again:
->Physical damage potential<because it's hard to mix the all factor in one list, until now no solution is ever agreed, so we divided in several rankings>
->why are unites, unique runes the most important factors in physical DD ranking? KFC analyzed it, i just add one more thing: look at the formula for damage dealt, do you have any problem with it?
Damage dealt = total base power*multiplier*hit rate
with base power= strength stat + weapon power + equipments
Multiplier=possible runes/unites/normal attack with critical 's average performance and weapon element (but we agreed to leave weapon element aside)

character stats only play a small part in the formula since it offers a plus in the math, while unites/runes offer a multiply in math there go my question earlier, do you think 5+6 is higher or 3*4 is higher?
You can't rank a character individually since there're chars who are designed to be loner while there are char must be with used with their unite so when we check a max potential, we check what he can do at best, not just what he can do alone because this game offer a team play which allow unites to take part in and boost up the characters. Please consider my rock carrying exemple. Why only exam Fusulu when he's alone, individually only deal like 300damage per turn while using him with his clan, it brings back 900 as result? There i use KFC's style: if you don't rate a character's unique rune or in unite then you 're just nerfing him, for what he was designed for.
For another real life exemple: think of yourself as a manager in a restaurant. You're hiring a team to work in kitchen. There're 2 teams apply for job:
1. A, B, C who don't know each other but individually show some really good skills, but in the end, since they don't coop very well with each other, there's no real team work between them. They could serve 50 customers at same time.
2. D,E,F who are teamates for a long time, harmonize really well with each other although if you separate them, their skills are just above average for each. But since there's team work, by putting them together, they can serve 80 customers at once.
Tell me if you would insist on evaluating the team 2 individually then after your ranking you will hire team 1?

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Thu May 31, 2012 6:23 am

We both know mpico was just looking at stats and we both disagree with that. We both feel that it takes more than just individual stats to create a coherent list and we both agree that unites, runes and equipment should be included. So far we both want the same thing. Trust me, I am nothing like mpico.

Your formula however, has a multiplier, which is the biggest thing I disagree with. We shouldn't multiply results, as this will come with extreme results. However, just to make sure I am understanding it correctly; could you clarify how you come up with the multiplier? From what I understand is that you give a multiplier for each unite/rune they can equip? So, Fu Su Lu can equip Killer, DB, has a unite, so is that x3? This part I need explaining to make sure I fully understand. I did ask in a previous post, but didn't got an answer.

Aside from that, you're using *, which suggests you're multiplying all numbers and I think they should be added up and find a way of adding unites/runes without multiplying. Aside from that, we should also be able to substract for unbalance statuses. Pahn, i.e. has the Boar Rune which he can only use once every two turns and plenty of unites also cause the unbalance issue. So, if a battle has, i.e. 6 turns before the enemy dies, they can only be used three times. Obviously there is the Turtle Rune, but not all characters have a slot available.

Please do not misunderstand that I need to have Suikoden favourite characters on the top of the list, just because they're everybody's favourite. I am merely suggesting to even up the way this list is going to be created so that we don't receive extreme results where the tier list would only make sense if the people would be aware that they're ranked this way, because of the unite they're in.

We know that, pound for pound Fu Su Lu and Pesmerga are stronger character than a lot of others. This is a fact. Fu Su Lu and Pesmerga, individually deal more damage than most characters in the game. The difference between them is minimal. However, the fact that Fu Su Lu has the additional option of having a unite ready means he is better than Pesmerga, however, this doesn't take away anything from Pesmerga and it would still rank him high on the list.

The fault in the process we have here is that we assume we only ever include Fu Su Lu in our party, if Kuromimi and Gon come along, which is simply not necessarily the case. We're also not nerfing Fu Su Lu if we take him on his own. He's not a worse character if he's on his own. Sure, if Gonomimi that would benefit all three members.

As for your analysis, I am glad you brought it up. Your Earth Rune party showed how it can be done. I'm certain you can play through the entire game (if the characters were available from the start) with that party and beat it.
So yeah, I'd take both teams into account. Team 2 might work better as a team, but that is only if you were to pick the team your tier list would only be applicable if the rules are met by the player, in that they take Fu Su Lu and Gonomimi.
On top of that, if I were to pick Kwanda, Pesmerga and Tai Ho, your list won't explain that I would more physical damage if I were to pick Camille, Krin and Stallion. Yes, if you pick Krin, it is adviseable to pick Humphrey, due to their unite, but it doesn't make Krin do more physical damage on his own than Pesmerga. I hope this makes sense in what I am trying to say, or rather I hope it comes across.

Your list would only make sense when we pick unites, but if we were to individual characters, or rather three characters that are part of a unite, but not with the ones in the party, the results will be completely different and therefore the list wouldn't make sense. So, once again, I am not saying we should not include unites and runes, I am merely saying we should take individual charcaters first and then look at the possibilities they have. This won't make a character such as Pesmerga look like a useless character and Gon like a world beater.
In the end, it is annoying that we're both trying to achieve the same, but we can't agree on a workable solution/have different ideas on how to produce a list.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 31, 2012 6:52 am

I
Piisuke wrote:Your formula however, has a multiplier, which is the biggest thing I disagree with. We shouldn't multiply results, as this will come with extreme results. However, just to make sure I am understanding it correctly; could you clarify how you come up with the multiplier? From what I understand is that you give a multiplier for each unite/rune they can equip? So, Fu Su Lu can equip Killer, DB, has a unite, so is that x3? This part I need explaining to make sure I fully understand. I did ask in a previous post, but didn't got an answer.

So this is the source of our misunderstanding, sorry to get you read something again but this time it serves to know more infos about the game, this is the spreedsheet that I've recently updated for unite list,
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... DS1E#gid=0
You surely find that multiplier is a crazy thing, right? But that is the point of unite attack. When you read something like this:
Title:"Talisman Attack"
Damage:2x
Unbalance: no
It means if your pahn normal does his attack for 200 damage and your gremio normally does 150 dmg, then using this unite they will deal a total of (2*200)+(2*150)=700 damage with no unbalance for anyone. Yes, unites multiply the result, that's the reason why it's the most important factor in final result.
I talked about Fusulu or mimi or Gon with that *3 in their score because of their 3x damage unite with no downside.

Piisuke wrote:Aside from that, you're using *, which suggests you're multiplying all numbers and I think they should be added up and find a way of adding unites/runes without multiplying. Aside from that, we should also be able to substract for unbalance statuses. Pahn, i.e. has the Boar Rune which he can only use once every two turns and plenty of unites also cause the unbalance issue. So, if a battle has, i.e. 6 turns before the enemy dies, they can only be used three times. Obviously there is the Turtle Rune, but not all characters have a slot available.

And of course if you take time to browse page 3 of this thread where ninjaluc and i made an exemple to count Ronnie/Pahn scores. Pahn gets unbalance in that unite so actually we counted his score as 3x from unite but divide for 2 turns, his final multiplier from that unite is just 1.5 times.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Thu May 31, 2012 7:30 am

I do know how unites work, that is not the part I am confused about, it is the following that I have trouble understanding:

Multiplier=possible runes/unites/normal attack with critical 's average performance and weapon element (but we agreed to leave weapon element aside)


So, we have Pahn, he has the Boar Rune. He has the Talisman Attack. He has the Beat 'M Up Attack. He has the Martial Arts Attack. What is the multiplier for all those 4 things combined? Or rather, how do you calculate Pahn's score with those 3 unites and Boar Rune?

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 31, 2012 8:02 am

Yes, we just have to consider which is the best for him among these options:
-normal attack : got blessed with critical chance but there's also with miss chance which is considerred a negative damage modifier so if we calculate it precisely, the multiplier in this option should still be around 1x damage
-boar rune: 2x damage but unbalance pahn -> multiplier of 1x per turn
-Beat 'em up: 3x damage but unbalance pahn-> multiplier of 1.5x per turn
-Talisman : 2x damage and no unbalance

compare all these, we picked the option talisman attack cause it should give pahn his best potential then we put in the damage dealt formula, the multiplier value as 2x to calculate the ranking score.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Thu May 31, 2012 8:39 am

Oh, so you're only counting one of the unites and dismissing the others?

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 31, 2012 8:50 am

Of course, our goal is to pick the best option for a certain character or other way to say is to make the character show us his max potential, then calculate his score, by comparing scores, we'll be able to rank them in a clear order.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Thu May 31, 2012 9:04 am

Yeah, but that means that in Pahn's case, only the Talisman Attack is used to compile the list and not the Boar Rune and the other unites, therefore it doesn't give the whole picture and that is basically saying to whomever looks at that list:"Pahn can do x damage, but only if Gremio is in your party." At least, if I am looking long-term, that is how I expect the list would look like.

This has cause and effect, because there will be situations where say one character has a unite that is his best option with another character who's best option is to have a unite with another character instead. This then causes that the entire list will based around a few things only, namely whichever unite is the strongest and what character can do the most damage with their command Rune and everything else becomes dismissable, because there's no point.

The idea I had is more of an overal evaluation where each character is rated on their own abilities, as well as the combinations we can have with that character, such as runes, unites, etc. So, in my theory, Pahn's score would be based on all unites, as well as his Rune and not just the option that is best.

I think this is where we differ. You're just looking to see who deals the most damage, whereas I'm looking for an overall picture based on the characters themselves, however, nothing like mpieco's idea.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 31, 2012 10:09 am

Forget about what happened, but i think it could be simply put that way, we are looking for a character's max potential in physical damage so that should do just fine since it helps that certain character to produce the max result he can.

Is your concern about that setup is perhaps good for this character but bad for other characters who join in unite? So far i've only noticed the pretty girl which would cause such problem while everything else is allright to use this method to rank. And in that special case, removing the unite in ranking calculation as it nerfs the participant become a good choice. I did this same thing to other suikoden games and it worked out quite smoothly.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Wed Jun 06, 2012 4:10 am

No, your setup is fine for what you're trying to achieve. What I think was going to happen was something different. I was expecting a tier list based on individual characters, as opposed to see what character(s) can do the most damage in total, which is slightly different.

This is basically what I was trying to figure out, but we got mixed up in a toss of words. Now that this is clarified, I know what you are trying to achieve is different than what I thought was going to happen.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby hyzhenry » Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:25 am

My current party other than Tir, consists of Cleo, Kirkis, Stallion, Kai and Viktor/Pesmerga pretty much.

Cleo and Kirkis are very similar in a sense that they are very balanced in terms of POW/MAG/SKL.
I like my setup and here's why.

Cleo has considerably high stats overall. Her MAG is definitely not as good as the pure mages but she can get a LVL4 spell quite early in the game. She starts out early and you can place 2 Winged Boots on her for high defense pretty much 3/4s of the game. Her Dmg is also pretty decent.

Kirkis is similar albeit lower overall stats than Cleo, and his MAG is not as high. I usually give him a water/flowing rune. He has a great unite attack with any of the other elves that does 1.0x damage to all enemies. Very useful for clearing out random encounters.

Stallion is the weakest link here. In fact he shouldn't be in this list at all, the only reason I use him is because of how useful he is. His true holy rune allows you to sprint in world map but that means he has no empty rune slot. And his unite with kirkis does 1.0x damage to all enemies. He also has very high SKL stat that allows him to crit like 70-80% of the time. His insane speed allows you to throw out the unite attack first all the time. I also put my dragon seal incense on him, so he can heal when he is unbalanced after the unite attack.

Kai has above average POW. Has low SKL stat but makes up for it with his hazy rune for dodging attacks. Not the best choice, but has the highest damage attack all unite attack with Tir. With his unite and the elves unite attack, you effectively clear almost all random encounters in the first turn throughout the whole game.

Viktor has good POW. I usually farm Wind(earth) rune pieces for him in the early game to boost his SKL stat. Currently has DB rune on him but thinking of switching it out for killer, since DB doesn't work on single enemies at all.

Pesmerga is a great choice too because of his insane POW and Def, higher than Viktor.

Others worth mentioning are:
Varkas - High attack, great single target unite attack with sydonia
Sydonia - Decent stats, great single target unite attack with varkas
Humphrey - High defense, decent attack
Pahn - High attack, great single target unite attack with Gremio
Gremio - Average stats but great single target unite attack with Pahn (you don't really get to use him much throughout the game though)
Tai Ho - Above average attack, great single target unite attack with Yam Koo(unbalanced afterwards)
Yam Koo - Average stats but great single target unite attack with Tai Ho(unbalance)
Eileen - Above average MAG stat. (can't believe no one mentioned her)
Valeria - Decent attack and defense, has falcon rune
Juppo and Meg - Decent stats, only useful for their unite attack, attacks all no unbalance
Sylvina - Decent MAG stat, unite attack with the elves
Luc - Very high MAG stat, but very low in DEF and HP
Fu Su Lu - Insane attack and HP, but low SKL causes him to get countered or dodged often
Mina - Decent MAG stat, decent attack
Blackman - High attack and defense
Sarah - Decent Mag, attack and defense
Flik - Above average attack and MAG
Milich - Above average MAG, decent attack
Tengaar - Highest MAG stat that can attack from back row, decent attack.(worth considering)
Rubi - Above average overall attack, unite attack with the elves.
Hellion - High Mag stat, but low defense and HP and permanently equipped with Mother Earth
Hix - Decent overall stats but low MAG

I missed out a few others such as Alen, Grenseal, Gen, Lotte, Sergei, Kreutz, Sheena, Morgan and Camille. They have pretty decent stats but I haven't really used them much to comment. Sergei is interesting as he has very high defense and SKL but his MAG and POW stats are low. Fun to play with though.

Some other useful characters includes Gon, Meg, Hix, Mina due to High LUK stat. Good to level them up and then gamble with Gaspar. Add Eileen, Juppo, Mace or anyone else with the next highest tier of LUK stats, You'll pretty much win almost every round and max out your potch for buying new gear and upgrading your weapons.

Try all the characters in the game to get the best out of it. Sometimes using people like Antonio, Lester or Sansuke can be fun too since the cooks are useless in the game, might as well use to them fight. Can be pretty cool to complete the game with Sergei, Sansuke, Antonio, Lester and Krin with Tir.

However, I warn you that using Kirkis with Water/Flowing rune, Stallion and Kai in your party will dramatically increase your completion time.


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