A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

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Piisuke
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Tue May 29, 2012 3:36 am

Problem with Flik being the Water Mage is that it stops you from using the Pretty Boy Attack if you need to heal, which you really want to dish out every single turn.

I have heard a few people using the Kobold +1 attack on the Golden Hydra a few times. It's just that I am not a fan of kobolds and never really give them much thought. Again, the biggest issue in Suikoden in the final party is the fact that Fliktor is forced into your party.

Still, I am currently playing through the game again and plan on leveling up the characters at the end and have a mess around with various parties.

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Punkaiser
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Tue May 29, 2012 3:51 am

Piisuke wrote:I have heard a few people using the Kobold +1 attack on the Golden Hydra a few times. It's just that I am not a fan of kobolds and never really give them much thought

Oh no, please don't turn this one back again to a favorite thread, like it or not, please keep in mind the word "Potential Damage ". you can't expect me to rate a x2 damage unite higher than a x3 one just for the main reason: handsome clan versus kobold clan , that's totally racist LOL.

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Piisuke
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Tue May 29, 2012 4:04 am

Please tell me where I said: "I never used them, because I do not like them, so they suck."

Can't find it? Me neither. That's because I didn't say anything like it, nor suggested it. I merely said that I hadn't given them much thought before, but that I've seen a few people make the suggestion. So please keep in mind to read a post correctly before jumping onto a conclusion.

What I did say beforehand though, is to not say a character is fantastic, just because he/she/it has a good unite with a top tier character. It definitely bumps them up the list, but their own stats should take more weight than their unites, in my opinion. I.e. a character might have a good unite, but he/she/it might have low defense/hp and is prone to dying due to those stats. So, do we take this character along, just because of the unite, or do we pick two other characters instead?

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Tue May 29, 2012 4:39 am

I don't think we could discuss any further if you can't show me : what does "damage potential" mean to you? is it about tank? or is it about high strength stat?

Together with ninjaluc and KFC, we 've been discussing on how to rank physical characters and who's the one jump in blah blah with kobold this mage that? I read everything you wrote but i don't think you've followed what we posted from page 1 til here, because tt's may be too hard to combine everything in one list so it's better to divide the characters into roles and rank them based on how well they do with that role so the comparisons could become clearer, now the mess's gonna happen again when we mix up every single role together and literrally all rounders get overrated.

It's about team management, you want a good team, you put them in the role/division/department they are best at, unique runes represent unique skills people got in work that not any other could have while unite is a way to express compatibility and harmonization which produce an extra of result in work when a certain person works with the right partners. Keep track of all that then the result your team receive should be way better than using a horde jacks of all trades.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Tue May 29, 2012 5:24 am

Look, I never said anything negative about the kobolds. All I said was that never used them. I don't even know where I said anything about any mage, other than Flik having the water rune which was a reply to the previous poster (ninjaluc) and his suggestion to put a water rune on Flik for a party set up. So to answer your question:

Together with ninjaluc and KFC, we 've been discussing on how to rank physical characters and who's the one jump in blah blah with kobold this mage that?


Let me show you who actually mentioned both:

ninjaluc79 wrote:Since Alen and Grenseal are offensive Mage Knights due to their permanent offensive magic runes (Rage and Thunder, respectively), you can bring in one Water Mage with a Flowing Rune (usually Luc, Crowley, Tengaar, or Eileen) or make Flik THE Water Mage just in case you want to bring in Kai for the Master-Pupil Attack.

Making Flik the Water Mage suits better if you want an anti-mob Unite (Tir + Kai) and an anti-boss Unite (Alen + Grenseal + Flik) at the same time. Viktor is left with the Holy Rune (if you want to run fast to the final boss) OR the DB Rune (since he has the best single-character DD in your party at this point). It won't hurt Viktor bearing the Holy Rune since he has a very good normal attack even without DB.

Another interesting 3-man anti-boss Unite involving mid-to-low-tier characters is the one with the Kobolds and Fuu. Again, you may want to make Flik the Water Mage for this setup. Whether you place him in front or in the back is up to you.


There you go. I merely responded to that by saying: A) I never given the kobolds much thought and B) Making Flik the water mage breaks the Pretty Boy Attack when you need to heal, which it does.

As for 'damage potential', feel free to make a list of what team can do the most damage if that is what you're after, but if you're after damage potential, which implies being able to deal as much damage as possible over x amount of rounds, why even talk about tanks? Just beef up the ATK for all characters involved, irregardless of what their 'supposed' role is.

I was under the impression that you guys were trying to make a list from top to bottom of who the best/worst characters are to have in a party where characters that are included in a powerful unite obviously have an advantage over other characters. That is what I got from the posts. If you're merely going for 'damage potential', rename the topic to something that suggests you're merely looking to see what team can do the most damage, no?

Edit:

What I am merely trying to add is that in the final part of the game, the party is gimped, because Fliktor is forced in your team, leaving you to select only three additional characters. Is it better to select three that share a unite, i.e. Kobold +1, or add characters that share a unite with any of the characters already there, i.e. Master Pupil Attack/Pretty Boy Attack leaving you the option to add another character. For example: Alan/Grenseal/Flik, Viktor, Tir + somebody else, or Flik, Viktor, Tir, Fu Su Lu, Kuromimi, Gon, or like The Earth Rune party that was suggested where everybody has an Earth Rune, or a Mother Earth equipped, apart from Viktor and Tir.

I am merely saying that it is not just about unites. Your Earth Rune team beat the final boss in 3 turns where your kobold team did longer. Maybe that is where the confusion lies with what I am suggesting and with what you guys are. I am mostly looking at the final dungeon and taking into account Fliktor is stuck in your party. So if you guys are looking at damage potential for the final dungeon, the Earth Rune party managed to beat the Golden Hydra in 3 turns, so 'damage potential' wise, that is the best set up.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Tue May 29, 2012 8:40 am

My bad too, i didn't clarify that we were talking through 2 pages about physical DD. Although i still want to separate the physical DD and magical DD but let's go off a bit.

I don't consider an earth mage party to be the best because it just happen to the case the final boss is formed by 3 targets, that's how earth mage could deal more damage to it but not to any other boss, so it's more like a situational setup turns out to be the best for only one battle. And secondly, if we take that setup as criterion, then compare characters will just end up with magic stats, whoever get 3x level 4 spells are all godlike, or those with 3x level 3 spells are also good with mother earth rune, almost every character can do that and that will corrupt the ranking. Then unless you pick a party with hit all unite as beauty or wild arrow, versus regular encounters or versus any other boss with this setup is quite a pain since you have to save and not using earthquake in normal battle and spam earthquake to hit only one target in boss battle, and got no healer.

Here's the part you made me think that you want to consider tanking ability in DD list:
It definitely bumps them up the list, but their own stats should take more weight than their unites, in my opinion. I.e. a character might have a good unite, but he/she/it might have low defense/hp and is prone to dying due to those stats.

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Piisuke
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Wed May 30, 2012 3:20 am

It wasn't what I was saying with that particular comment you quoted. That comment was me trying to say that some characters aren't that good and simply would normally never be picked. Yes their unite is helpful and makes them more useful than other characters in the same bracket, but in the end, I was under the impression that a tier list was going to be made that would show which characters are the strongest in their field respectively, due to them being strong on their own, or by having a unite.

The Kobold +1 attack is clearly very powerful and clearly, it is mostly Fu Su Lu's doing who deals nearly half of the damage on his own, so both Kuromimi and Gon should be placed below him. However, there are various other characters that are stronger than both Kuromimi and Gon and also have strong unites and thus that places both Kuromimi and Gon further down the list. That is what I was trying to say.

Still, I never really found much use for tanks. Did anybody really used a character with the purpose of making it a tank and have it function as a tank? Is there a way in Suikoden to force the enemy AI to attack said character in Suikoden I?

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Wed May 30, 2012 4:30 am

Allright, glad that you cleared things up, but there's no worries because we're going to rate each participant based on their contribution in the attack, like how we will compare their damage dealt by average number they inflict each turn:
e.g.
Fusulu has 450 power so his score will be 450*3
while Flik will get a score of sort 380*2
and Mimi get 350*3
...
then we will compare all these scores together and rank them in order. Sounds simple, right?

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Wed May 30, 2012 6:21 am

That means characters with no unites will have to work hard to avoid getting placed at the bottom of the DD tiers, though.
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Wed May 30, 2012 7:08 am

That is exactly what I was saying. Unites shouldn't be the main focus point if you want to create a tier list. Yes, they should count, but a charcater like Pesmerga, who's attack is behind only Fu Su Lu (if I recall correct) is at a major disadvantage.

I think we should make a list based on stats of individuals and then when they have a unite move those up a few places, due to having the benefit of having a unite that is powerful. Aside from that, tiers aren't all about numbers. If that was the case, many a tier for various videogames would be completely different than they are now.

Imagine with the three runeslots as of Suikoden II and we were to make a list based on unites. Sheena and Killey would be nowhere near as high as they should be.

I agree with seperating magicians and physical fighters, as they fight very different. However, as the topic is suggesting an analysis, we have to factor in a whole lote more than just unites. Possible Runes that can be equipped, armour, front row/back row, etc.

I mean, according to Punkaiser's previous topics, Korumimi and Gon would be placed above Flik, due to their unite, despite Flik having higher PWR and being a hybrid character. Unless, of course, I am misunderstanding his figures.

Edit:

To elaborate.

Say we have 4 tier levels, God, Upper, Mid, Low and we have, as an example the following list:

God:

Fu Su Lu
Pesmerga
Viktor

Upper:

Flik
Grenseal
Lorelai
Eikei
Kuromimi
Gon

I'm just writing down random names here, so don't take this too literal.

Right, so Kuromimi's stats indicate he's an upper tier character, but his stats aren't as high as the other characters in the upper tier, therefore we place Kuromimi below those. However, Kuromimi is part of the wicked Kobold +1 ATK which includes the God Tier Fu Su Lu, as well as fellow upper tier Gon.
Kuromimi obviously becomes more interesting (ignore the unites of Lorelai and Eikei for now) than both of them, because he's included in that, so we can consider placing Kuromimi above Lorelai in that bracket.

This is basically what I was thinking was going to happen. Yes, Kuromimi is interesting for the Kobold +1 ATK, but Kuromimi on his own isn't particularly eye catching. Clearly, individually Fu Su Lu and Pesmerga are stronger characters and just because Pesmerga isn't part of any unite, doesn't mean he should be penalised for it.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Wed May 30, 2012 7:28 am

I agree, but Unite Attacks do not miss, and thus is the only way for otherwise low-hit-rate characters like Fuu and Viktor to deal damage on a consistent basis. I and Punkaiser agreed that only the character's DMG contribution to the Unite will be recorded and not the total damage he can inflict with the other participants of the Unite.

Of course, for people who can't be bothered with Unites (because that would mean you have to bring along a suckish character alongside your favorite just to access an absurdly powerful Unite, as in the case of the Kobold + 1 Attack since most people won't bother using the Kobolds anyway), one could just look at the average normal damage per turn instead of the maximum, which only less than half the cast can obtain through unites. Or even better, just look at the base ATK since low hit rates can be offset with either Killer Runes, Skill Rune Pieces, Luck Rune Pieces, or Thunder Rune Pieces (if you are patient enough to farm for the last three, that is).

As for the tanking ability as one criterion for DD tiers, one could note that the best DDs in the game also have above average tanking abilities. Viktor and Pesmerga are good examples. On the other hand, some of the best tanks are decent DDs as well. Milia, Valeria (with Falcon) and Humphrey are examples of this type. So you don't really need to worry about

I would like to say that any CRPG player should use a party what works the best for them, no matter what the tiers say. Each one of us have unique ways to make otherwise mid-tier DDs more powerful for as long as we want those characters in our parties. That said, I will still use Hix, Kwanda, Lepant, or Sheena no matter what the tiers say. I will still use Tengaar and Eileen as Water Mages even if most people would tell me to use Luc or Crowley.
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Wed May 30, 2012 8:12 am

Piisuke wrote:Imagine with the three runeslots as of Suikoden II and we were to make a list based on unites. Sheena and Killey would be nowhere near as high as they should be.

I've never fully agreed with the previous ranking for S2 in first place since there was never a precise calculation for damage dealer list and unite factor also wasn't cared at all. And people made it obvious to ignore unites in S2 because most of unites only provide 2x damage modifier and we got double beat rune could do that just too well plus the bonus of critical and multi hit it may bring.

Piisuke wrote:I mean, according to Punkaiser's previous topics, Korumimi and Gon would be placed above Flik, due to their unite, despite Flik having higher PWR and being a hybrid character.

Yes, you understand it right, i haven't calculated but just with a mere math from what i recall, mimi could contribute more physical damage than Flik per turn, so why is it not allright for him to get higher in list? To avoid any confusion allow me to repeat, we're working on PHYSICAL DD list, so whoever could inflict more damage on the screen will get higher rank, that's what i think.

Clearly, individually Fu Su Lu and Pesmerga are stronger characters and just because Pesmerga isn't part of any unite, doesn't mean he should be penalised for it.

Pesmerga doesn't get penalized, just those who got unites got their bonus as multiplier, it's the real purpose of unite or else we will just have 1x DMG unite for everyone.

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Piisuke
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Wed May 30, 2012 8:38 am

@ninjaluc: Oh, I agree with your last comment entirely. There's plenty of characters in Suikoden to make your own team and mix and match and see whatever you like. Irregardless of tiers, I'll still use whomever I want to.

Unite attacks are indeed a surefire way of dealing damage and as I said, they should not be excluded, but they should also not be the main focal point. Probably what needs to be done is create a formula on the most vital stats, i.e. ATK + PWR + SKL/3 = number.

I have no access to my own save at the moment, but I took the stats from Punkaiser's kobold party video.

Viktor: 362+177+127/3=222
Flik: 311+161+166/3=212
Fu Su Lu: 426+256+59/3=247
Gon: 323+173+129/3=208
Kuromimi: 335+185+122/3=214
Tir: 316+158+191/3=221

We can take into account average damage per battle, but that requires testing damage against the same enemy, etc. We also have to consider characters like Flik, Alan, Grenseal etc whether they're more like mages, or physical fighters, considering they can function in both roles, or maybe include those on both lists, or make a list with all characters, one using a magical formula and another using a physical formula.

So, the tier would look like:

Fu Su Lu
Viktor
Tir
Kuromimi
Flik
Gon

Or breaking it down further:

God:
Fu Su Lu
Viktor
Tir

Upper:
Kuromimi
Flik
Gon

Obviously, several other factors should be taken into account as well, unites, Runes and whether you'd use them for their physical attack, or magical attack. In case with Tir, you'd obviously use the Soul Eater, so his formula isn't accurate, as it is based on physical attack, unless ATK and PWR also include magical attack power.

If we were to look just for unites, might as well make the following list:

Pretty Boy Attack
Kobold +1 Attack
Beauty Attack

Problem solved. Why discuss about individual characters?

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Wed May 30, 2012 10:30 am

it seems you get lost again, we are talking about physical dealer and you're trying to mix up stuff like should we count the pretty boys on physical damage or magical damage and stuff??? what's the point? When we start with mage ranking we will count magical potential, but what we're discussing right now is all about PHYSICAL ranking so we're counting on their physical performance. If I ever make a magic ranking then i would calculate magical potential for everyone based on their performance with magic which will include humphrey, kreutz, eike, everyone no matter how low it would be but never give them bonus for how well they tank, how well they hit physically, that'd be totally off topic.

Then where did you pull out the stuff skill/3 , i don't understand at all. Should i mind you unite and rune attack never miss, is there any meaning of skill for these? There's only one thing i could agree that is skill and luck must be counted for critical rate and hit rate of those who do normal attack.

You love overall stats, i can see, and it hurts to see guys with nice stats are being nerfed by this ranking system with unites and unique runes also counted as major factors but because they are MULTIPLIERS which make the character worthy as damage dealer, is it 5+6 higher or 3*4 higher?

Would you please get real? we are counting physical damage dealt here, so real number brought to table is what we need to rank, what's deal with att+power+skill/3 has to do with their damage shown on the screen, it's too ambiguous of a formula. All i care about : what is the character's attack base, what is his damage multiplier, and what is his miss rate or critical rate in case he uses normal attacks , just those stuff together will determine the number on screen. Before replying to me this time, please take your time to think, what are factors which affect physical damage of a character other than those? Then we will continue.

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Piisuke
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Wed May 30, 2012 3:05 pm

The topic is called "a proper suikoden character analysis guide", so please explain how anything you are saying is "proper" when all you are looking at is physical damage in unites.

You are making the assumption that anybody would only ever pick Fu Su Lu if he would bring the kobolds along, but what if somebody would bring him, Pesmerga and Clive? Where does that leave your multiplier?

You should stop suggesting everybody else is wrong, because they disagree with your method. You are only looking at unites and assume that is what everybody else does too.

I am suggesting to make a list based on individual characters first and foremost and further develop the list by including unites and runes, as opposed to not even acknowledging characters, because they do not have a poxy unite.

Come out of your tunnel vision, stop being so aggressive and listen to what both me and ninjaluc have said, or rename the topic to something like: "a character unite analysis" because with your method there is no point to even include certain characters.

As for my formula, the stats determine how much damage a character does, so I took the three most prominent ones quickly and quickly made a formula to generate a number that could be used to rank an individual character. It was an example, not to be taken litterally, or definitively.

Also, my other comment was in regards of hybrid characters, they do not excell at either, however placing them in both lists was something I was thinking off as well.

Either way, the name of the topic is misleading, because it is not a proper analysis guide if you are placing every character that is not part of a unite at a disatvantage, simply because.


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