A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

A forum to ask questions if you are stuck in the The Gate Rune Wars; or wish for more clarity on the gameplay systems.
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Punkaiser
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 17, 2012 8:06 am

it's allright but seems like the random stats growth screw things up a bit, ronnie's total base power should be equal to Pahn's, shouldn't it?
If you don't want to have to test in real battle for every character, you could do simple calculation:
-> every turn Ronnie will deal 3x of her base attack, be it with Hate rune or Unite..
-> every 2 turns Pahn will deal 3x of his base attack and one turn stay unbalanced-> average 1.5x DM per turn

By the way, pairing up Ronnie and Pahn doesn't affect Ronnie's performance but will actually nerf Pahn. Since this unite only offers Pahn 1.5x DM perturn while pairing him up with Gremio would make him better -> 2x per turn.

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ninjaluc79
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Thu May 17, 2012 8:11 am

Oh, there it is. It's much better to use Pahn's unite with Gremio (2x DMG, NO UNBALANCE!). Pahn's DD contribution for that unite ups to ~800 per turn (vs ~600 w/ his Unite with Ronnie). It also helps buff Gremio whose level 60 base power is in a pretty low tier unless you grind him to level 99, which will up his power tier considerably.

But Fuu is still the best damager, especially if you use the Kobold + 1 Attack. His DD contribution with that Unite is a whopping 1.3k!
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 17, 2012 9:04 am

ninjaluc79 wrote:
Camille and Kasumi have ~330 ATK, Tengaar has ~290. Unite deals 2.5x DMG, for a total of (330 + 330 + 290) * 3 = 2850 DMG.


:?
it should be = (330+330+290)*2.5=2375
ninjaluc79 wrote:
Kasumi is Unbalanced the next turn (perma rune attached, same predicament as Pahn), and Camille has a maximum normal DMG potential of 990, Tengaar has 290 * 3 * 1.5 (if enemy is weak vs her Wind Element WPN) = 1305.

Also, it's not good here, why do you count the next turn as a sure critical hit for both girls? And didn't we agree to not count on weapon element and save it for last just to decide tied ranking?

If you plan to let camille and tengaar normal hit in the 2nd turn then the formula should be normal attack*average DM from critical
eg. :
camille has 200 skill and 120 luck< total 320> => 10% crit => her average damage should be = 330(1*0.9+3*0.1)= 396
tengaar has 180 skill and 100 luck <total 280> => 9% crit => her average damage should be = 290*(1*0.91 +3*0.09) =342

So in average: with this unite
-Kasumi deals 330*2.5= 825 every 2 turns-> 412 per turn
-Camille deals (330*2.5)+396= 1221 every 2 turns-> 610 per turn
-Tengaar deals (290*2.5)+342= 1067 every 2 turns -> 533 per turn

Conclusion: physical damage potential for Camille and Teengar is well optimized in this unite but is a nerf to kasumi since she could produce 330*2=660 every turn by herself with Shrike rune or participate in ninja unite with same result.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby KFCrispy » Thu May 17, 2012 9:29 am

change Camille with Hix to give Tengaar a higher average damage (2x dmg every round with Hix), and Kasumi would keep using Shrike. this combination is better overall because you can separate the damage for random encounters and you'll deal more damage every turn.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 17, 2012 11:28 am

True, Tengaar is optimized when tag along with Hix while Camille still need to rely on pretty girl unite to reach her max potential.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Thu May 17, 2012 8:44 pm

Whoops. I did that wrong. 3x instead of 2.5x lol.

But I still think the Pretty Girl Attack is very good. With a Killer Rune, Camille's critical rate increases to 15% and her average normal attack dmg ups to 330 * (0.85+3*0.15)= 429.

But yes, Camille has to depend on that Unite to maximize her damage potential.

I agree that Tengaar should be tagged with Hix instead. Her unite attack with him ups her dmg potential to 574 (vs. 533 with Pretty Girl Attack) while Kasumi should just spam Shrike instead (660 per turn vs. 412 w/ PGA).

Top five physical tanks (HP / 8 + DEF / 2):

1st - Kwanda Rosman (185)
2nd - Pesmerga (180)
3rd - Fu Su Lu (175)
4th - Kreutz (173)
5th - Milia (170)

Top five anti-magic tanks (HP / 8 + MAG / 2):

1st - Tir (164)
2nd - Milich (162)
3rd - Cleo (162)
4th - Crowley (162)
5th - Rubi (160)

Note: Odessa (167) and Ted (167) have better ratings than Tir, but they are not usable for a long time in normal gameplay.

Top five mages:

1st - Crowley
2nd - Luc
3rd - Hellion
4th - Tengaar
5th - Eileen

The Mother Earth Level 4 spell Guardian Earth is bugged in this game, but Hellion can still use her level 4 MP to perform Unite Magic with a Wind or Fire mage.
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 17, 2012 9:25 pm

ninjaluc79 wrote:Top five physical tanks (HP / 8 + DEF / 2):

1st - Kwanda Rosman (185)
2nd - Pesmerga (180)
3rd - Fu Su Lu (175)
4th - Kreutz (173)
5th - Milia (170)

How do you come up with criteria hp/8 + def/2 ?

Kwanda is obviously the best tank,agreed.
I haven't calculated, but seems like something off...I don't think Fusulu could be better tank than kreutz because of his light armor while kreutz can equip heavy armor and shield then both of them have same def growth.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Thu May 17, 2012 9:41 pm

Fuu is buffed by his high HP, but yeah, his armor selection sucks compared to the other tanks. Pes has the same HP as his, but has better armor than Fuu.

I just averaged HP and DEF. HP / 4 equals the HP score for the criteria. Valeria and Gon are your next choices for tanks if you're only looking for the DEF stat (natural DEF + armors). Gon is buffed by his ability to wear the Gold necklace.
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Thu May 17, 2012 10:43 pm

Our question is : Are Hp and Def equal in term of importance?
Forexemple Fusulu has around 300 def and 800 Hp, while Kreutz has 380 def and 650 HP
-Versus an enemy with 400 attack, Fusulu can withstand 800/(400-300)=8 hits
while kreutz can take 650/(400-380)=32 hits
and recovery items/spells don't care about your max hp when they heal.
So i would estimate the importance rate should be 9:1 or 8:2 between Def : HP

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Fri May 18, 2012 12:35 am

Nice analysis there! This should work. Basis would be a 400 ATK enemy.

Based on how many hits would it take for a 400 ATK enemy to take down a tank, the next best tanks after Kwanda (a whopping 171.5!) are:

2nd - Kreutz - 14.02
3rd - Milia - 11.26
4th - Valeria - 10.72
5th - Pesmerga - 10.15
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Fri May 18, 2012 8:58 am

:shock: wow
pesmerga looses to Milia and Valeria? I thought he must be on par or slightly better than kreutz due to higher HP?

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Fri May 18, 2012 9:17 am

It's versus a 400 ATK opponent. Results will vary with a different ATK value. Versus a 500 ATK opponent, Pes (4.48) beats both Milia (4.27) and Valeria (4.18).

With the criterion of HP / (attacker dmg - defender def), we need to set a standard attacker dmg value for use in determining tank tiers.
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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Punkaiser » Fri May 18, 2012 9:35 am

Oh sorry, nevermind my claim, i forgot that pesmerga has dragon armor fixed, so was thinking that he could equip winspun armor.
Keep the good work up, ninjaluc.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby Piisuke » Mon May 28, 2012 3:15 am

This is an interesting topic.

I do feel that we should be able to figure out a full list of charcaters and where we see them on the list of most useful and least useful. Clearly characters like Ronnie and Valeria are often overlooked and especially in the final dungeon where Fliktor is forced in your party, leaving only three places to be selected, one would try to make a party that functions like a unit.

Still, Ronnie has the Hate Rune which doesn't unbalance and her stats aren't too bad. Same story for the Shrike Rune and Falcon Rune.

Unites obviously have to be taken into account as well, but the problem with unites is that many factors should be included, such as how many characters are required and more importantly, which characters are required. On top of that, the unites are they useful against bosses, or are they useful against groups of enemies. The characters involved, are they good on their own?

Take Kai for example, a character most of us have taken with us. Against groups of enemies, he's arguably the best charcater you can take with you, due to the Master Pupil Attack. Against bosses, however, he doesn't have much value. A Hazy Rune won't help much against bosses by the time you have recruited him, not many bosses attack with direct attacks, most have special attacks that they use. Obviously, (very obviously) the Master Pupil Attack is pointless against a singular enemy/boss.

Gremio and Pahn have another useful unite that can use, but Gremio isn't available for half the game and Pahn isn't available either for a portion of the game. As a matter of fact, Pahn and Gremio are only together at three points in the entire game. The beginning of the game, when Pahn's recruited after the events of Lepant until Gremio's death and when Gremio's resurrected at the end of the game. On top of that, I never found Gremio to be a very good character. The only reason he was in my party was because the game forced me to. The only reason I found Gremio useful was because Pahn was in my party and the only reason I had Pahn in my party was because of the requirement to defeat Teo with Pahn.

So, I agree that unites have to be taken into account, because in many cases it actually boosts a character's usefulness. Flik, Grenseal and Alan's unite clearly is a great unite. Sure, against a group of enemies it isn't the best, due to the amount of charcaters involved and also because it hits only one enemy, but all three come equipped with runes as well. Against bosses, however, there isn't much available that deals more damage.

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Re: A Proper Suikoden Character Analysis Guide

Postby ninjaluc79 » Tue May 29, 2012 2:48 am

Since Alen and Grenseal are offensive Mage Knights due to their permanent offensive magic runes (Rage and Thunder, respectively), you can bring in one Water Mage with a Flowing Rune (usually Luc, Crowley, Tengaar, or Eileen) or make Flik THE Water Mage just in case you want to bring in Kai for the Master-Pupil Attack.

Making Flik the Water Mage suits better if you want an anti-mob Unite (Tir + Kai) and an anti-boss Unite (Alen + Grenseal + Flik) at the same time. Viktor is left with the Holy Rune (if you want to run fast to the final boss) OR the DB Rune (since he has the best single-character DD in your party at this point). It won't hurt Viktor bearing the Holy Rune since he has a very good normal attack even without DB.

Another interesting 3-man anti-boss Unite involving mid-to-low-tier characters is the one with the Kobolds and Fuu. Again, you may want to make Flik the Water Mage for this setup. Whether you place him in front or in the back is up to you.

Flik has decent DD, while the Kobolds can be made into decent tanks if you have the necklaces on them since only they can wear them. Gon benefits better from Killer due to his higher LUCK than Kuro (they have roughly the same SKL stat), so you can have Viktor, Gon, and Kuro up front. Viktor and Gon act as the DD's while Kuro the tank.
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