A new ranking system?

[mpieco]

SIMSteven's guide on gamefaqs is not that great. I think the categorizing of characters and ranking the category instead of the character betrays the greatness (or terribleness) of certain characters.

One inconsistency that also hurts it is that he has stats of some characters at level 68, and others at 58. Of course stats are going to look horribly different...if there's a 10 level difference in when you attained them!

Case in point, Mina being thrown into the same "5-star" category as the Hero, while Kasumi is thrown into a 2-star category, despite the fact that I'd much rather have Kasumi's superior stats (in literally every category except Magic, which doesn't mean anything, because Kasumi has a 2x command rune).

The game is very old, but I'd still rather have as accurate information as possible on it, and that "ranking guide" just doesn't cut it. At all.

[ninjaluc79]

Yeah, I did not like his stats in Suikoden 2, either. I mean, WTH, he didn't even bother to remove the stat-modifying runes and equipment, which could inadvertently raise the character stats at a lower or higher level than they actaully are. He had Lion Runes on the claw types, which decreased their MAG but retaining their MP, and Gale, Wizard and Warrior Runes on some characters. I mean, come on, it's pretty annoying that your favorite characters don't fit the bill while characters you don't usually use get a higher ranking, alright?

I'm planning to play the first game, so maybe I can try to appraise the Suikoden 1 characters myself. I have made a stat growth rate list in Suikoden 2, and I found that many otherwise useless characters can be optimized despite their own limitations with the right runes and equipment. I believe Suikoden 1's kind of a handicap compared to 2, because of the one rune slot limitation. But again, maybe I can try appraising the characters myself.

[mpieco]

I'm actually doing one right now...sort of.

I'm at the end-game, but I'm going to take Tir/Kai with 4 people and raise those 4 up to 50 (it's a nice, round number). I'm going to unequip everything, and take note of their stats. Someone that I've already been impressed with is Kasumi. Her total stats are somewhere above 700 (I don't keep track of HP, just PWR/SKL/DEF/MAG/SPD/LUK). So, if she has 700+, that means she has a stat average of over 100 which is great.

I'm going to write up a guide with those 6 stats at level 50 for each character (except the characters that come at 50+), and then rank them based on stats and usefulness. Again, the one thing I'm not entirely fond of is the classification system, because it can really downplay people that shouldn't have that happen to them (Kasumi), and it really plays up people that belong to a 5-star category, but are absolutely terrible (Mina).

[ninjaluc79]

Why not do it all the way to 60? You said that some chars come at 50+. And besides, at 60, stats grow a lot slower.

Well, yeah, you're right about that, but when I classify people, I don't classify them based on how I like them or how terrible I think they are. I believe that there's no such thing as a weak character (I believed otherwise until I found out about the usefulness of the effect runes, which I thought was a waste of some characters' MP).

Everyone can be optimized with the right runes and equipments. The guide writer you mentioned rated Mina higher than Kasumi probably because he found a way to optimize Mina to her maximum potential. This is usually done by noticing the stats. For example, if someone's high in MAG but low in TECH, better make him/her a mage, since magic spells don't miss. If somebody's high in TECH but low in MAG, you would suit him/her up as an attacker as surely as you would do to STR types. Plus, it actually depends on which style you prefer. That is, if you really like the character so much, you will find a way to boost him/her up, no matter what others think of him/her. Just as Steven liked Mina so much, you liked Kasumi so much, as well. Odds are, you may have found a way to optimize Kasumi to her maximum potential.

[mpieco]

This is usually done by noticing the stats. For example, if someone's high in MAG but low in TECH, better make him/her a mage, since magic spells don't miss. If somebody's high in TECH but low in MAG, you would suit him/her up as an attacker as surely as you would do to STR types..

oh...that makes sense. I've never done that before. I'll have to try it out, thanks!


In all seriousness, the first suikoden is 99% stats and 1% runes/equipment. "Optimization" doesn't really exist in this game, since there are few pieces of equipment that will boost stats and there is only one rune slot. If your stats are good, you're good. If your stats are bad, they're bad.

Mina has nice magic and is S. But she is isn't so nice at magic that I'd want to use her in the back row over someone like Luc/Crowley who is also S. If I have to have someone who can ONLY mage, I'm going with a real one.

...Or someone like Rubi/Cleo who is L and can mage just as well. They'd be more useful because they can mage but still attack from the back row.

Also, Mina has VERY low HP, and since I don't want to use her in the back row, does not really have the stability to live very long in the front row. She is the only character who actually died multiple times while leveling her up.

[ninjaluc79]

Then what about rune pieces? They don't give much worth stats? And plus you can equip like, 9 of them per weapon?
But is it that they're very hard to find?

Well, I could see that. Is it like this:

Fire Piece = +5% DMG = max +45% DMG
Lightning Piece = +1% Critical = max +9% Critical
Wind Piece (supposedly Earth Piece) = +3 DEF = max +27 DEF
Earth Piece (supposedly Wind Piece) = +2 SKL = max +18 SKL
Water Piece = heals 5 HP per turn = max +45 HP (?) per turn

I suppose there aren't unlimited extra Rune Pieces in the game?

[mpieco]

I'm not the BIGGEST fan of farming, although I will if I have to/really want to.

For example, I farmed Master Garbs outside of Moravia, because that piece of armor is just incredible. Nothing even comes close to it.

I usually end up just getting the rune pieces that the game offers.

The point I was really trying to make is that in subsequent games, you have MORE armor that adds stat bonuses. You also have multiple rune slots (this is the part that REALLY adds a whole different dimension). For example, someone like Hai Yo would be a poor player in Suikoden 1, but because of the fact that he gets THREE rune slots in the game he is actually in, all of the sudden he becomes a top-notch character.

I think this game more than any other is stat-dependent. You can use skills, runes, and equipment in other games to customize. There is less customization in this game, and I think the rankings should reflect that, i.e. focus solely on stats.

[ninjaluc79]

Yep. It is indeed stat-dependent. For instance, Mage ratings are solely based on MAG, since S1's MP scaling is different from S2 and there's no affinity to save characters from becoming bad mages (S2 had that, otherwise Millie won't be the best Blue Gate mage in the game).

[KFCrispy]

you have to consider that it's only possible to obtain 1 Fire Rune Piece and 3 Lightning Rune Pieces without cheating (mem card swapping / codebreaker stuff), and i think one of the Earth/Wind Rune Pieces is limited.

and yeah, farming for some items is really difficult. i've never gotten a Mangosh in all of my games (i think.. or maybe 1-2?), the Boars drop Earth(?) Rune Pieces but extremely rarely.... Water Rune Pieces are moderately easy to farm but they're limited to the beginning of the game.

[ninjaluc79]

Hm. Suikoden 1 Mage and Tank rankings are much easier than the other titles because there's only one rune slot, but I'm not sure how to rate Damagers and sort them by rank.

From what I observe, Tir in S1 is VERY MUCH NOT LIKE Riou in S2 due to a lot of factors (rune slot limitations included), as Tir is more inclined towards magic but still has above average stats while Riou is more physically inclined.

There are far more effective Damagers than Tir in S1 (I rated him as a B rank Damager), while Riou has the highest combined critical, dodge, and counter-attack rates in S2. Riou managed to demolish 6 M-Knights at Rockaxe castle by just Defending just because he dodges and counters physical attacks most of the darn time.

[mpieco]

Yes, but that's why you shouldn't concern yourself with inter-game comparisons. Tir is very much different to Riou--you're right. Only worry about intra-game. How is Tir compared to the other characters in his game?

I couldn't resist and just restarted S1, and will be playing through it again. I am definitely going to try and come up with some concrete character analysis in the next couple of months. It's too good of a game to not have something a tad more legitimate--for posterity's sake, haha.