Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

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sticky-runes
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby sticky-runes » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:33 pm

BrucePrintscreen wrote:
sticky-runes wrote:Aaaaand i just realized how sexist my last comment looks. :shock:


We all knew already that you hate women and wish they were all strippers from Duke Nukem 3D.

Get yo bitch ass off my ship and back in the kitchen before I hoe slap you with muh Rune of Punishment.

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sticky-runes
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby sticky-runes » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:33 pm

Here's my attempt at the Razril armour shop... I'm struggling a bit with this one, to be honest. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. do you think I should add more manikins and have more stock on display?

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ENDmyinitials
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby ENDmyinitials » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:36 pm

In my opinion I think this one came out great! Maybe on the lower right add something, it's to empty in that area. Also, I see you have some good barrels. I believe you should get rid of mine for the port, and use yours instead your mapping is great! Also my crates should probably get remade In your style.

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sticky-runes
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby sticky-runes » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:44 pm

Yeah, I will update the barrels and crates on the town map. Very tedious items to draw, but it does make a difference! I've been looking more at the Suikoden 2 tiles for reference.

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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby ENDmyinitials » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:50 pm

sticky-runes wrote:Yeah, I will update the barrels and crates on the town map. Very tedious items to draw, but it does make a difference! I've been looking more at the Suikoden 2 tiles for reference.

Yes I always look at suiko when spriting the characters. Also don't forget you can use overlays. If you want to draw things like wooden pieces going across the ceiling you're more than welcome to do so. Those will be layered.

Also you could probably add some shadowing underneath the table with the two helmets in the middle. Sticky I'll send you the suikoden 4 resource pack I've created so you can have all the sprites that have been completed along with the project.

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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby HolyPaladin » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:53 pm

sticky-runes wrote:Here's my attempt at the Razril armour shop... I'm struggling a bit with this one, to be honest. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. do you think I should add more manikins and have more stock on display?
ENDmyinitials wrote:In my opinion I think this one came out great! Maybe on the lower right add something, it's to empty in that area. Also, I see you have some good barrels. I believe you should get rid of mine for the port, and use yours instead your mapping is great! Also my crates should probably get remade In your style.
The only thing I really do at this point is +1 END's post.

I agree with END that despite the tediousness that comes with your accuracy, you've excellent skills 8) ; keep it up the excellent work :D !

I'll also check Razril's Armor Shop to make sure it's fully accurate because I think the Armor Shop is missing the door to the back room.

HolyPaladin wrote:...female generic Knight Trainees, female Gaien Knights if you so chose (now that I think about, are Paula, Jewel, and Katarina the only females in Gaien's military? Even amongst the generic trainees, I hardly remember hearing a single female voice)...
(NOTE: This quote is from one of my lists for the sprites needed for the demo. It's only here to help me illustrate my point better and isn't an update to the demo sprite list.)

Only after replaying the beginning of S4 to help END with some research that I now realize that female generic Knight Trainees (including Jewel and Paula) DON'T wear leggings while male generic Knight Trainees (including Lazlo, Keneth, and Tal) wear leggings. I could never make the correlation between what Lazlo and the 4 Knights wear with what the generics wear because I saw Lazlo and the 4 Knights as unique due to the female generic Trainees voices being too low to help me distinguish the difference between male and female generic Trainees.

Speaking of only notice something after replaying the beginning of S4, I realized that none of the Island Nations have enough ports in their harbors to realistic portray the number of ships necessary to keep the Island Nations economies afloat and make the Nations realistically habitable. For example, Razril, at the very least needs one more port in the town area and one more in the Hall of Knights area.
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby sticky-runes » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:40 am

HolyPaladin wrote:
sticky-runes wrote:Here's my attempt at the Razril armour shop... I'm struggling a bit with this one, to be honest. Any suggestions for improvement are welcome. do you think I should add more manikins and have more stock on display?
ENDmyinitials wrote:In my opinion I think this one came out great! Maybe on the lower right add something, it's to empty in that area. Also, I see you have some good barrels. I believe you should get rid of mine for the port, and use yours instead your mapping is great! Also my crates should probably get remade In your style.
The only thing I really do at this point is +1 END's post.

I agree with END that despite the tediousness that comes with your accuracy, you've excellent skills 8) ; keep it up the excellent work :D !

I'll also check Razril's Armor Shop to make sure it's fully accurate because I think the Armor Shop is missing the door to the back room.



I was gonna leave out back doors because I thought it would annoy the player to see a door that can't be used (Suikoden 4 has quite a lot of these) and while it would be nice to add more areas to be explored, it would be time consuming and I'd rather focus on locations that will actually be used.

Although, I could probably wall off a section of the armour shop with the barrels to make it look like a stock room or something if that will make any difference.

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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby suiken » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:28 am

Another issue I have in IV is the retarded enemy placement. Why the hell they are still enemies in the town square and port of Na-Nal after the liberation?

About the armor shop, how about compressing the whole area a little bit? It's too spacey and doesn't provide any real eye-candy.

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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby Pesmerga VS. Yuber » Thu Feb 19, 2015 5:58 am

suiken wrote:About the armor shop, how about compressing the whole area a little bit? It's too spacey and doesn't provide any real eye-candy.

My thought exactly. Compare the size in S2. Everything worked because the space wasn't as vast as it was in S1 (or your example).

Image

Also, have you thought about using S2 sprites?
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby sticky-runes » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:19 am

thanks for the feedback, I'll try to make the rooms more compact. END seemed pretty adamant about making all graphics in the game as fresh as possible (so no using sprites or tiles taken directly from previous games) and I'm agreeing with him.

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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby ENDmyinitials » Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:40 am

Pesmerga VS. Yuber wrote:
suiken wrote:About the armor shop, how about compressing the whole area a little bit? It's too spacey and doesn't provide any real eye-candy.

My thought exactly. Compare the size in S2. Everything worked because the space wasn't as vast as it was in S1 (or your example).

Image

Also, have you thought about using S2 sprites?

No suikoden 2 sprites. Hermit, and I are capable of making suikoden sprites.

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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby HolyPaladin » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:53 pm

sticky-runes wrote:I was gonna leave out back doors because I thought it would annoy the player to see a door that can't be used (Suikoden 4 has quite a lot of these) and while it would be nice to add more areas to be explored, it would be time consuming and I'd rather focus on locations that will actually be used.
I understand the both sentiments, so...

sticky-runes wrote:Although, I could probably wall off a section of the armour shop with the barrels to make it look like a stock room or something if that will make any difference.
This works out well for the sake of realism.

suiken wrote:About the armor shop, how about compressing the whole area a little bit? It's too spacey and doesn't provide any real eye-candy.
I don't know if I can agree with this notion. I think larger shops make everything look a little more realistic so it doesn't look like the player is the only one using the shops. Besides that, since Razril is such a large, old world port town, having larger shops with wares that aren't being moved and all that space with no clientele to fill it works well for the Razril-is-on-the-decline storyline we're going for in the Demake.

Besides that, there is a town with highly compressed shops, Middleport! To me, it was always weird that such a high profile trading town like Middleport only has stands for its shops rather than large ones like Razril which I thought was only due to S4 being a game with such a small scale. But, the Demake has made me realize what S4 was going for with the Gaien, Razril, and Middleport trifecta: Razril is the losing economy between the three because it's so old world! Due to that, Razril is being economically exploited by both Gaien and Middleport!

Here's how Gaien and Middleport do it: In S4, armor is demonstratively made by blacksmiths like in real life, but despite Razril being a town that holds an army garrison, it has no blacksmith for armor to be made specifically for Razril's Knight! So, now Razril is forced to import armor from both Gaien and Middleport who both have blacksmiths (it's reasonable to assume that Gaien has blacksmiths with it being such a large landmass). The armorer even says that Razril's Knights of Gaien do so well because they wear his armor probably meaning Gaien doesn't supply the Razril Knights with much good armor in the first place or their own personal blacksmith. Knights now have to buy good armor with their own cash which makes sense since even Trainees barely get any armor (they really don't. Check your starting party in S4 when you get the chance). Not only that, but Razril basically has to export their children to the army if they want their kids to go anywhere in life (take a look in S4, all the teenagers are in the Knights Academy. There are no plain clothes teenage NPCs!)

Contrast this to what Gaien does to Razril and what Middleport looks like. As soon as Kooluk shows up, Gaien offers no support for Razril; why would they, Razril is a washed up town Gaien can easily get rid of since Gaien now has everything they can squeeze out of Razril (for example, Gaien already has Razril's future in their army, and they don't really need Razril as forward garrison given Gaien's mass. They might as well cut their losses). This now gives a reason for Snowe's actions as Commander, he literally had no choice but to sell out to Kooluk or the citizens would have starved to death or the town could've been overrun by pirates (the pirates are already brazen enough to show up during the Kindling Ritual's festival and also kidnap a little girl. Now imagine what they could do to Razril without Gaien's support). An example like this further explains Snowe's behavior throughout the game, he knows that he isn't suited for leadership, but because of his noble birth, he's required to take leadership roles he knows he shouldn't. This explains why he literally passes the torch to the player's character, Lazlo. This also explains one of the reasons why, amongst other things, Snowe's so resentfully to Lazlo throughout the game, Lazlo's the only one he can trust to vent he's frustrations at even if they're on different sides.

Moving on to Middleport, I initially didn't understand why a busy and influentially port town would have stalls instead of shops like Razril, until the Demake made me realize that Middleport doesn't need shops because Middleport takes in more business since they have no competition from Razril. Therefore, even with only stalls, they already move enough merchandise to make a profit without need for large shops to increase their overhead. Plus, Middleport can just dump all of their slow moving merch on Razril, especially since of the two, only Middleport has a trading post. Also, with all their wealth, Middleport can just hire the Knights on the cheap than make that money back by being the only one's who can really only supply Razril with cheap armor which will eventually causing the Knights to want to buy better armor from Middleport and Middleport, along with Gaien, is the only place for Razril to strengthen their weapons. Again bringing it back to Snowe, this is probably why he even survived getting exiled by the Razril citizens, the majority of the townsfolk are probably retired Knights but with only cheap, inaccurate weapons, they couldn't even hit Snowe.

TL;DR version: Even small details like the size of a shop can weave a better understanding of a story's world. So, we should be care about how we reconstruct places in the Demake given how much we want to further enhance S4's story. That all said, if compact shops will help sticky work faster and make it less tedious for him, I wouldn't object to making them more compact, but still keeping the Demake's storyline intact.
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby Roshambeaux » Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:39 pm

Since blacksmiths are responsible for armaments and weapons, the smitheries and armor shops should use the same room, but should be divided by using a partition or something of the sort. This would be like having rune and scroll shops in the same room.
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby HolyPaladin » Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:07 pm

Roshambeaux wrote:Since blacksmiths are responsible for armaments and weapons, the smitheries and armor shops should use the same room, but should be divided by using a partition or something of the sort. This would be like having rune and scroll shops in the same room.
Maybe not for Razril until after liberation, but I think that would work well for other Island Nations, especially Middleport.

Also, thanks for the map; it's extremely helpful. It also reminded me that I think Donut Island should be moved to fill out the southeast corner of the Island Nations map since there's nothing there in a map to sparse for its own good.
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Re: Suikoden IV Reboot-Demake

Postby sticky-runes » Fri Feb 20, 2015 4:55 am

thanks for all the musing on economy, Paladin. I'm actually quite thankful that most of Suikoden 4's shops are external stalls, so it means less rooms to design!
I kind of assumed the shops were designed that way so it would mean less loading screens, plus most of the islands are sunny and dry so the merchants don't have to worry about their wares getting damaged by the weather ;)

When it comes to mapping the Hall of Knights, I definitely want to include all the rooms for all the knights and trainees, as it kind of bothered me that we could only enter Lazlo's room and there were lots of balconies and turrets that we could see but couldn't access. I want to include rooms for Snowe and the others and have them personalized to give us more of a feel for our friends (e.g. diaries and training equipment, kind of like Pahn and Cleo's rooms in the McDohl residence) So I'm really looking forward to getting to that stage.


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