Wishlisst for new suikoden game

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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Wolkendrache »

Roshambeaux wrote:The lower and higher tier elemental runes should have completely separate spell list. Also, once you equip a higher tier elemental rune, you should still be able to cast all the spells from the lower tier rune.
I like the spells you’ve made up. In the current system one spell gets replaced by a new one if you put up the higher rune. I didn’t like that, especially in Tactics, so your ideas are a good alternative. However, I’m in love with the idea that the higher runes are literally a higher version of the normal elemental runes. I’m thinking about something like this:

Fire / Rage
Lv1 Flame Arrow (/+1): damage to 1 enemy / more damage to 1 enemy
Lv2 Fire Wall (/+1): damage to 1 enemy row / more damage to 1 enemy row
Lv3 Flame of Fury (/+1): Berserk status to 1 ally row for 2 turns / Berserk status to all allies for 3 turns
Lv4 Explosion / Final Flame: damage to all enemies / more damage to all enemies

Water / Flowing
Lv1 Kindness Drops (/+1): status cure + heals 1 ally by X / revive + full heal + status cure on 1 ally
Lv2 Ice Breath (/+1): damage to all enemies (freeze 10%) / more damage to all (freeze 30%)
Lv3 Kindness Rain (/+1): status cure + heal all allies by X / full heal + status cure + MDef up for all allies
Lv4 Silent Lake / Silent Ocean: revive all allies (50% HP) + silence allies & enemies (1 turn) / revive all allies (100% HP) + silence all enemies (1 turn)

Wind / Cyclone
Lv1 Healing Wind (/+1): status cure + heals 1 ally by X / 100% magic repel (until hit) + full heal + status cure on 1 ally
Lv2 The Shredding (/+1): damage to all enemies (sleep 10%) / more damage to all enemies (sleep 30%)
Lv3 Gale of Grace (/+1): Tech & Speed up on all allies (2 turns) / greater Tech & Speed bonus on all allies (4 turns)
Lv4 Shining Wind / Shining Storm: damage to all enemies + heal all allies partially / more damage to all enemies + full heal on all allies

Lightning / Thunder
Lv1 Angry Blow (/+1): damage to 1 enemy (unbalance 10%) / more damage to 1 enemy (unbalance 30%)
Lv2 Thunder Runner (/+1): damage to 1 enemy column (unbalance 10%) / more damage to 1 enemy column (unbalance 30%)
Lv3 Thunder Charge (/+1): Boost status to 1 ally row for 2 turns / Boost status to all allies for 3 turns
Lv4 Bolt of Wrath / Thor Shot: high damage to 1 enemy (instant death 10%) /higher damage to 1 enemy (instant death 30%)

Earth / Mother Earth
Lv1 Revenge Earth (/+1): 100% counter rate (3 turns) on 1 ally / 100% counter rate (3 turns) on 1 ally row
Lv2 Target Rock (/+1): damage to 1 enemy (unbalance 20%) / more damage to 1 enemy (unbalance 50%)
Lv3 Guardian Canopy (/+1): 50% magic repel (until hit) + MDef & Def up on all allies / 100% magic repel (until hit) + greater MDef & Def bonus on all allies
Lv4 Earthquake / Apocalyptic Quake: damage to all enemies (unbalance 10%) / more damage to all enemies (unbalance 30%)
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Roshambeaux »

While on the topic of runes, I should finish of my ideas for the rest of the elemental runes as well as some skill runes...

Fire Rune
Lv1 Flaming Arrows: Deals minor FIRE damage to enemies in area.
Lv2 Dancing Flames: Deals moderate FIRE damage to enemies+allies in area.
Lv3 Fire Wall:FIRE protection for allies in area. Enemies receives minor FIRE damage on contact. 3 turns
Lv4 Explosion: Deals large FIRE damage to enemies+allies in area.

Rage Rune
Lv1 Kindling Flame: Increase ATK of all allies by *1.3. 3 turns. No stacking
Lv2 Flare Wall: Deals moderate damage to enemies+allies in area. Inflicts Darkness(50%)
Lv3 Final Flame: Deals large damage to one enemy. Ignores barriers such as Storm Warning.
Lv4 Incineration: Deals massive damage to all enemies+allies in area.

Wind Rune
Lv1 Wind of Sleep: Deals minor WIND damage to enemies in area. Inflicts Sleep(40%)
Lv2 Healing Wind: Heals one ally's hp and negative status(es).
Lv3 The Shredding: Deals moderate WIND damage to enemies in area.
Lv4 Funeral Wind: Deals large WIND damage to one enemy. Instant Death(30%)

Cyclone Rune
Lv1 Illusion Wind: Increases EVA of all allies by 1.3* No stacking 3 turns
Lv2 Turbulence: Deals minor WIND damage to all enemies. Delays spellcasting by 15% No stacking
Lv3 Storm Warning: Reflect magic for one ally.
Lv4 Shining Wind: Deals large WIND damage to all enemies + heals all allies.

Lightning Rune
Lv1 Angry Blow: Deals minor LTG damage to one enemy.
Lv2 Thunder Runner: Increases SPD and MOV of all allies by 1.3*. No stacking. 3 turns
Lv3 Surging Bolt: Deals moderate LTG damage to enemies in line.
Lv4 Thor Shot: Deals large LTG damage to one enemy. Inflicts Unbalance(20%)

Thunder Rune
Lv1 Soaring Bolt: Moderate LTG damage divided among foes.
Lv2 Flash Thunder: Instant. Moderate LTG damage to one enemy.
Lv3 Echoing Thunder: (Field Effect)Lv3 and lower LTG magic strikes twice(50%) for the next 3 turns.
Lv4 Heavenly Thunder: Deals massive LTG damage to one enemy. Inflicts Unbalance(20%)

Knight Rune (Does not consume any MP)
Lv1 Knight Watch: (Action) Protects an ally whose HP<50%. Defensive abilities up by 10%.
Lv2 Knight Aid: (Passive) Auto-Medicine on an ally in critical condition.
Lv3 Knight's Oath: (Self) ATK and DEF up by 20%. Once per battle

Why this? There's only so many rune slots, so I want them to be viable options throughout most of the game. The less junk, the better.

Red Rose Rune
Lv1 Red Rose Minuet: 1.2* Damage to one enemy. Inflicts Unfriendly(50%)
Lv2 Red Rose Etude: 0.75* Damage to enemies in area. Inflicts Sleep(50%)
Lv3 Red Rose Rondo: 1.5* Damage to one enemy. Crit.Rate + 10%
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Roshambeaux »

Proposed Skill Growth System
The following shows the amount of SP needed to upgrade, and it's based on the character's skill compatibility:
Proficient: [ E ] [ D ] [ C ] [ B ] [ A ] [ S ]
3 6 18 36 54 100
Average: [ E ] [ D ] [ C ] [ B ] [ A ]
6 18 27 45 63
Challenged:[ E ] [ D ] [ C ] [ B ]
9 18 36 54
This is how SP is rewarded:
Defeating a 1-2 enemy party will reward you with (1SP), 3-4(2SP), 5-6(3SP)
Defeating a boss will give you (20SP). Dungeon Bosses like in SIII will give you (10SP)
Exploring all areas of a dungeon will give you (10SP)
Completing the bestiary of an area will give you (10SP)
Opening all the chests in an area will give you (5SP)
Sparring with allied parties will give you (2SP)

Skill Categories
Mundane Skills: Enhances a character's battle capabilities, but do not affect their stats directly. (SIII)
Stat Skills: Boosts a character's stat's (SV)
Epic Skills: Includes a combination of Stat Skills and/or Mundane Skills. Bonuses are slightly weaker and cannot be equipped if those skills that are affected are already equipped.
Support Skills: ( Support Characters only) Aids party members in and out of combat. Allows access to menus outside of battle.
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Roshambeaux »

Now, how will you determine the percentages?
The numbers will be mostly based off of the Fibonacci Sequence, but there will be a few exceptions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_number

We'll use Viktor at Level 40 as an example and here are his skills:

Battle Lust Current Skill Level: A Competency Level: Average
Description: After felling a foe, the character may attack once more. (This would be separate from multi-hitting, and more equal to getting another turn.)
E(2%),D(3%),C(5%),B(8%),A(13%),S(21%)
Viktor has maxed out his skill level for Battle Lust and has around 1/8 chance of attacking another enemy after defeating one.

Critical Strike Current Skill Level: B Competency Level: Average
Description: Increases chance of proccing a critical attack as well as a double critical.
E(3%/1.5%),D(4.5%/3%),C(6%/4%),B(7.5%/5%),A(9%/6%),S(12%/8%)
As you can see this skill is slightly nerfed, but that's because it can be further accentuated by equipping a Killer Rune, as well as certain equipment.

Accuracy Current Skill Level: B Competency Level: Challenged
Description: Increases ACC stat
E(2%),D(3%),C(5%),B(8%),A(13%),S(21%)
If Viktor's current ACC is 90, then it would improve to 97.

Raging Lion Current Skill Level: S Competency Level: Proficient
Description: Increases HP and STR stats
E(1%),D(2%),C(3%),B(5%),A(8%),S(13%)
Viktor's HP would go from 500 to 565, and his STR would change from 120 to 134.

...and now for the rune du jour!

Mythical Rune (It's gimmicky and doesn't consume any mp.)
Lv1 Sylph's Sacrifice: User loses 1/3HP and heals all other party members.
Lv2 Nifty Nymph: Exchanges 1 Lv3MP for 2 Lv2MP
Lv3 Indecisive Dryad: Minor damage to all enemies(40%), Moderate damage to 1 enemy(30%), or Heal self(30%)
Lv4 Chimera's Claim: Steals all status effects from one ally/enemy. Once per battle.

Remember all of those odd and rare runes from Suikoden 2? This is a result of combining them all together to give you four times the weird, and maybe four times the usefulness?
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Rooks »

Well, there is much to talk about here, and many good ideas. But, I don't particularly like the idea of separating the rune spells. One of the things that confuses first time players of the games are the runes themselves, with oddly-named spells and only a nominal connection to the True Runes, at least until SIII. Also we would want a clear progression from Child to Elder Child to Parent to True Rune. This is literally established in the text of the runes themselves, and abandoning it places dissonance in that narrative. Also, I don't like the idea of resurrection from Kindness Drops, and I hate Breath of Ice with a vengeance lol, but don't take that personally.

That being said, changing up the spells may be a good idea. From what I saud this is what I would like to see Earth be:
Lv1: Clay Guardian, 15% DMG and MDMG reduction for 5 turns.
Lv2: Voice of Earth, 75+ DMG to all enemies, chance of unbalance
Lv3: Copper Flesh, 90% DMG and MDG reduction for three turns, no healing possible
Lv4: Earthquake, 400+ DMg to all enemies, chance of unbalance

If we combine what Roshambeaux, Wolkendrach and I have said, Earth should look something like this:
Lv1: Vengeful Child
Lv2: Voice of Earth
Lv3: Guardian Canopy
Lv4: Earthquake

I think this is pretty solid as a whole. Admittedly, Copper Flesh could be broken easily if spammed by the player, and needlessly frustrating if spammed by the AI, it may need extra restrictions such as one at a time or caster-only. I just think it is a great idea for a spell.

Giving greater thought to a cycle of affinity and enmity for the runes can help get what we would like to see down. Overall, it is best to just smash all runes into seven categories: 5 elements, Light and Dark. Darkness, Night, Star, Punishment, Sword, and Pale Gate for "Darkness." And Shield, Resurrection, Sun magic for "Light." There is no need to have Runes for all these different elements, then, so drop Sun, Night, Star, Sword, and Punishment, leaving two runes per element: Darkness and Pale Gate, Shield and Resurrection. This simplifies things for the player.

Now exculuding the true rune, we have a game with two runes per element, evenly, and we can begin establishing a cycle for them:

Think of it as a Pentacle within an eliptical oval. Each of the five main elements have two affinities and two enmities. Clockwise around the outside, it looks like this: Water, Wind, Lightning, Fire, Earth etc. Each element has an affinity with the two next to it, and enmity with the two across from it.

With this, place Water at 10 o'clock, Wind at 12 o'clock, Fire at 2 'oclock, Lightning at 4 o'clock, and Earth at 8 o'clock, roughly. This changes things up a bit, but I think it works in the end. Unite Magics from this cycle then can combine with the element to their right in pairs, giving us 5 types of unites:
Water + Wind = Water Dragon
Fire + Lightning = Flame Array
Fire + Earth = Scorched Earth
Earth + Water = (Something New) Storm Burial
Wind + Lightning = (New Again) But we'll call it Thunder God

Placing Dark and Light on the outside allows you to introduce them and their affinities and enmities in the middle of the game, as the 5-elements are a closed system are work well together. Dark and Light are opposed to one another, and cannot unite. But, they can unite with Fire and Water respectively:
Water + Resurrection = Sacred Purity
Fire + Darkness = Hellfire

We've had many discussions before about Resurrection/Shield and Darkness/Pale Gate unites, and those are good ideas, but I've never been keen on the Pale Gate Rune uniting with other Runes, as it is summoning magic and a bit different in that regard. Plae Gate can just be left out of unites, but can have its power increased as a result. Unites should be available fromt he first portion of the game, and become an integral part of gameplay, just like attack unites. Lower and Higher order Runes can be combined in this, though with slightly diminished effect: So, if we see spell levels from 1-5, then Rage runes start at Lv 2. Rage Lv 2 + Lightning lv 1 = Flame Array Lv 1, same is if a Fire Rune was used. Rage lv2 and Thunder lv2 = Flame Array lv2.

Flame Array: Lv1, 100+ DMG to row (or area if going the SIII route.) Lv2, 200+ DMG to all enemies (area) 20% chance of knockdown. Lv3, 500+ DMG to all enemies 20% Knockdown, 10% instant critical health. Lv 4, 1,000+ DMG to all enemies 50% Knockdown, 20% Critical Health. Lv.5 1,200+ to all enemies (large area) 50% knockdown, 25% Critical health, 10% instant death.

Scorched Earth: Lv1 60+ DMG to row (small area), Casters' DEF +15% for 5 turns. Lv2, 100+ DMG, DEF+15%, Casters' status returns to normal. Lv 3, 350+ DMG all enemies (med. area), 15% DEF+MDEF for casters, Party's negative status healed. Lv 4, 750+ DMG, DEF+MDEF 15% for whole party, negative status healed, Canopy Guardian applied to casters. Lv 5, 1,100+ to all enemies, DEF+MDEF, Status healed, Canopy Guardian applied to whole party.

Thunder God: Lv1 200+ to one enemy. Lv 2 400+ divided among enemies. Lv3 800+ divided among enemies. Lv 4 1,100 divided. Lv 5 1,500 divided

Water Dragon: Lv1 heal 100+ to casters, deal 100+ to one enemy. Lv2 heal 150+ to casters, clear negative status, 150+ to enemy row (small area). Lv3 350+ DMG to enemies (med. area), 10% chance of silence, 200+ and status recovery to allies (med area). Lv 4 400+ to allies, status recovery, resurrection, 500+ to enemies, 30% chance of silence. Lv5 All Allies Fully Recovered, +2 Lv1 MP and +1 Lv2 MP to casters, 750+ DMG to enemies, 50% chance of silence.

Those are the four familiar magic unites. Each one has its own unique mechanic, that makes sense in the context of the runes utilized, and gives each set of unites its own feel. Now onto the other two that I've proposed:

Sacred Purity: Lv2, 75+ to all allies, value of HP healed divided by 2 is dealt as DMG to one enemy, 2x DMG against undead, summoned enemies, or dragons/wyrms/drakes. Lv3, Resurrection, 100+ to all allies, HP healed/2 is dealt as damage to one enemy (2x against some), all allies become Toasty. Lv 4, resurrection, status recovery, 250+ to all allies, Toasty, 10% chance of Boost, HP healed is dealt as damage divided among enemies (2x to some). Lv5, Resurrection, Status Recovery, Toasty, 30% chance of Boost, 450+ to allies, HP recovered is dealt as damage divided among enemies (2x to some).

Hellfire: Lv2, 150+ DMG to all enemies, 25+ DMG to all allies, non-casters have a 10% chance of unfriendly. Lv3 250+ DMG to all enemies, 10% instant death, 50+ DMG to non-caster allies, DMG done to non-caster allies is divided as healing among casters, 10% chance of unfriendly for non-casters. Lv4 600+ DMG to all enemies, 20% instant death, 100 DMG to non-casters, DMG dealt this way is divided as healing for casters, Casters become Toasty, 20% of unfriendly. Lv5 1,200 DMG to all enemies, 25% instant death, 200+ DMG to non-casters, 100% unfriendly, DMG divided as healing for casters, Casters become Toasty.

So, again, we see that each set has its own mechanic that escalates nicely, in my opinion. For now, I need some tme to think of new mechanics for the other one. But I think we are getting a good picture of what we would like to see mechanically in a new Suikoden game. And, all of our suggestions really are based on the original work, none of them feel out of place or inane. It really does go to show how great the games are and also how much room they have to potentially expand.

EDIT. So I mixed up Lightning/Wind and Lightning/Water, of course. But this really crappy MS Paint job I did helps visualize what I am talking about:

EDIT 2:
Storm Burial (or whatever you'd like to call it.): Lv1, 75+ healing to all allies, 15% DEF+MDEF boost for 5 turns for casters. Lv2, 150+ healing for all allies, status recovery for all allies, 15% DEF+MDEF boost for casters. Lv3, 400+ Healing for all allies, +15% DEF+MDEF and all negative status removed on all allies, casters gain 100% counter attack rate. Lv4, All allies resurrected and fully healed, +15% DEF+MDEF, 100% counter attack rate for first turn, Canopy Guardian for all, casters gain Alert Status. Lv5, Allies fully healed, 15% DEF+MDEF, 100% counter, Fury and Canopy Guardian for all allies, Casters gain 2 Lv1 MP, 1 Lv2 MP and also Boost status for 3 turns.

That last one could be considered a huge swing in the player's favor, possibly game-breaking, but keeping it in mind for end-game only, because both Mother Earth and Flowing would be necessary for it. Upping enemy attacks and DMG in the last 3 or 4 levels may be necessary.

EDIT 3: OK that was awful. This new cycle is still a terrible MS pain job, but is better designed to show what I am talking about. The Outside now represents affinity and the inside represents enmity:
Image
Last edited by Rooks on Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Roshambeaux »

I really like your concept of the elemental affinity/enmity relationship, and I have an idea on how to implement it as a mechanic in battle. So, how about if the efficacies of each element is increased/decreased depending on which elements you use. In the beginning of every battle, you'd see the icons of each element on screen, and each element would begin in harmony and have an equal percentage distribution. We could call it Elemental Harmony/Disharmony or Elemental Power Struggle? Anyways, here's a chart of the Elemental relationships:

Percentages at the start: Fire:20% Wind:20% Earth:20% Lightning:20% Water:20%
If you use Fire: Fire-10,Wind+10,Lightning-10,Water+10
" "Wind: Wind-10,Earth+10,Water-10,Fire+10
" "Earth: Earth-10,Lightning+10,Fire-10,Wind+10
" "Lightning: Lightning-10,Water+10,Wind-10,Earth+10
" "Water: Water-10,Fire+10,Earth-10,Lightning+10

Once you're done with the math, the percentages should be equal. No element can go above 40% and no element can reach negative territory. Now here's the efficacy chart:
Element at 0% = 150%
Element at 10% = 125%
Element at 20% = 100%
Element at 30% = 75%
Element at 40% = 50%
Example
WIND at 0%: Wind of Sleep: 150 DMG to enemies in area. Sleep(60%)
WIND at 10%: Wind of Sleep: 125 DMG to enemies in area. Sleep(50%)
WIND at 20%: Wind of Sleep: 100 DMG to enemies in area. Sleep(40%)
WIND at 30%: Wind of Sleep: 75 DMG to enemies in area. Sleep(30%)
WIND at 40%: Wind of Sleep: 50 DMG to enemies in area. Sleep(20%)

So what do you guys think of this? Now, the problem is how to incorporate the Resurrection and Darkness runes into this. Maybe I could create a separate chart for the two aforementioned runes as well as the Shield, Pale Gate, and Sword runes. Speaking of Sword...

Sword Rune
Lv1 Shimmering Blade: Deals minor dmg to enemies in area. Debuff: ACC -20%
Lv2 Piercing One: Deals moderate dmg to one enemy. Debuff: MDEF -20%
Lv3 Soldiers' Remorse: Deals moderate dmg to all enemies. Debuff: ATK and DEF -20%
Lv4 Final Verdict: Deals heavy dmg to one enemy. Debuff: ATK, MAG, and EVA-20%

EDIT. Okay, the element relationship chart has been reversed.
Last edited by Roshambeaux on Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Rooks »

So, you propose a field-effect like in Chrono Cross? Interesting. . . I think that's actually a great idea, except one thing: you kinda got it backwards. I'll admit, I never liked Chrono Cross, but I do remember that casting three magic of the same element in a row boosted effects of that element. It allowed players to hammer away with Square-type elemental weaknesses, and made things easy, as boss' magic was made weaker too.

How about something more dangerous. Sid Meier said that "a good game is a series of interesting decisions." So, instead of handing the answer to the player as soon as they figure out a weakness, just change all the positives to negatives in your above formula. Think about it: Much modern fire fighting is done using controlled burns. Thunder and Wind storms have a finite amount of energy to expend before they die out. So too do floods and earthquakes. Casting a fire spell should reduce the power of the next fire spell, because there is less to burn. And Water should be empowered. This prevents hammering away blindly even if the enemy has a weakness, and also potentially raises the power of the enemy's magic on the next turn. Very much a double-edged sword that forces the player to consider their actions carefully, as exploiting a weakness now could wipe out the party on the next turn.

This of course is something that should be introduced mid-game, I feel it would be way too much to heap onto the player early on. One thing I like about Suikoden is that no game has ever had or needed a tutorial, with the exception of some of the war battles, and I wouldn't like to see that happen. The Mega Man route is usually best, to teach to player the rules of the game through gameplay and level design itself, rather than from boring tutorials. Besides, most players -particularly Suikoden players- are much smarter than the industry gives them credit for, and figure things out well enough on their own without tutorials. But being careful never really hurt either, and taking time to introduce this would be for the best I think.

I really like the idea as a whole; it also opens up the possibility of weather-effects and other things. So, in a storm, Water, Wind, and Lightning are boosted slightly, while Fire and Earth are reduced slightly. Mountainous terrain on a sunny day could boost Earth, Fire, and Lightning, wile Wind and Water are reduced, etc. Also, it allows for some character-development-through-gameplay, as people from the Island Nations would be at their best on hot, sunny days, and people from Camaro could be better in snowy weather, etc.

In SV, they tried -and largely failed- to change the way that magic affinities work. Lightning Magic Rings would boost Lightning, but lower something else. This should be done with skills, where Having Fire magic reduces your Water/Wind Magic Skill and Defense. This could be overcome by equipping accessories or by spending more skill points, but it again gives the player something to consider, and that is a good thing. This is yet another reason I don't like hidden stats, as something that is hidden is difficult for the player to consider.
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Roshambeaux »

This of course is something that should be introduced mid-game, I feel it would be way too much to heap onto the player early on. One thing I like about Suikoden is that no game has ever had or needed a tutorial, with the exception of some of the war battles, and I wouldn't like to see that happen. The Mega Man route is usually best, to teach to player the rules of the game through gameplay and level design itself, rather than from boring tutorials. Besides, most players -particularly Suikoden players- are much smarter than the industry gives them credit for, and figure things out well enough on their own without tutorials. But being careful never really hurt either, and taking time to introduce this would be for the best I think.
I thought it was so brilliant how the developers disguised their tutorial by making the protagonist do chores: Moving the boxes taught you that you can move objects and people; wiping the floor taught the player that they could examine things and end up finding items. Also, during that 'tutorial', Riou(M-ranged) was accompanied by Gengen and Tuta, who were S-ranged and L-ranged, respectively. This introduced the player to a mechanic in battle. Brilliant.
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Rooks »

Roshambeaux wrote:Battle Lust Current Skill Level: A Competency Level: Average
Description: After felling a foe, the character may attack once more. (This would be separate from multi-hitting, and more equal to getting another turn.)
E(2%),D(3%),C(5%),B(8%),A(13%),S(21%)
Viktor has maxed out his skill level for Battle Lust and has around 1/8 chance of attacking another enemy after defeating one.
Ok I like the progression here, and I like how you left the costs of each skill low; if it can be divided by ten, why leave it as-is? SIII's skill system was great, but I had two major complaints: 1) Skill point values seemed random and bloated. 2) Blind progression. Thomas and Cecile actually had lots of skills that could reach A- and S- rank, but you'd never know as those skills cost a lot of SP. Keep things simple for the player; we'd want them to be considering the characters and plot as much as possible, not numbers. Make sure there would be a fully visible skill tree, though, as blind choices are not interesting choices. I also like the fact that the middle progression drops down to 1.5 times cost, this should allow experimentation by the player.
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Rooks »

Long Post Warning:
Now, I spent some time today doing math. Funny, I couldn't run away from math fast enough in college, now I am actually enjoying some of it. . . All for war battles. This, I must admit, I am proud of, as I think the algebra came together very nicely. This is reasonably deep, but programmable on a potato, considering how easy these equations are. First, another horrid MS paint job. I am honestly getting worse at this:

[img]
War%20battles.png
[/img]

So, the sizes of the arrows don't mean anything, that is just me sucking at paint. This is basically a rip-off of Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock. In War battle terms, this then becomes: Infantry, Archer, Magic, Scout, and Cavalry. The pentacle shows the relations between each if: Rook = Inf, Queen = Arc, Bishop = Mag, Pawn = Scout, and Knight = Cav. There isn't too much here, except that if you note the top of the pentacle, the Charge > Archer > Magic > Charge mechanic is left intact from Suikoden I. Remember that any two adjoining units can be removed at any time, and the system will still work perfectly well as Rock, Paper, Scissors. So, in the early game, Infantry, Archer, and Magic units are introduced and set as a cycle, then in the mid-game, the other two unit types are introduced as an expanded cycle. If you take away Magic and Scout, you get the same cycle as Suikoden V. Preserving both original cycles was difficult, but I got it to work.

Now, Magic units will no longer use bows like in SV, other than that, four of the units are familiar. Scouts are my own invention, they have fast movement on the field, and can switch between bows and melee weapons as necessary, but have lower HP and DEF. Also, most should have a "repair self" style skill because they would be expected to act independently at times. So, narratively, they'd be capable of sneaking up on archers or using their short bows to take out cavalry at a distance.

Each unit has three basic stats: HP, ATK, and DEF. Much like SII, nice and simple. Each Unit has three members, Captain, Lieutenant, and Support Officer. Lieutenants are drawn from Stars playable in patty battles, Captains can be either playable or non, and same with support officers. Unit HP is determined by simply adding the levels of Captain and Lieutenant together. If the Captain is non-playable, just double the Lieutenant's HP contribution, or so. Powerful leaders like Kiba or Raja could, say, add 1.2 times the Lieutenant's HP, etc. If a support officer is playable, then just ignore their level, as they do not determine stats, just add special effects and skills. Unit Attack and Defense are a bit more tricky, but still based on level: Each character capable of being a captain has an unseen split that divides their level for ATK and DEF. So, a powerful captain, like the Tenkai, may have a split of 2ATK|2DEF, so at Lv 60, his level is divided by 2 to get 30 ATK and his level is again divided by 2 to get 30 DEF. These splits can be decimal numbers as well, like 4.5 or 4.75, etc. The lower the number, the better, and this would be easy to fine tune or escalate in different difficulty settings. Lieutenants and Support commonly add some pre-determined ATK or DEF, this does not change with level. A Captain Determines unit Type, but combining some characters can lead to special units, like Elven Archers, Ninja Scouts, or Heavy Cavalry. Some support officers can use powerful skills, like a "Battle Anthem" for musicians, which slightly recovers HP after every turn, etc.

When two units have an encounter several things happen. 1) Unit types are compared. 2) the RNG rolls the equivalent of a ten-sided die. 3)ATK and DEF are compared, and DMG is calculated. I hated the random nature of DMG in SII, but thought SV was to controlled and exploitable, so I am going for a middle ground here. Ignoring unit types, or assuming that two units of the same type meet, this is how it is calculated: ATK*1 - (DEF /2) = DMG. Simple enough. Though the "*1" and "/2" will change drastically with type match-ups, RNG rolls, and even in similar unit encounters.

If two units meet, then type mtach-ups come into play. The "winning" type has its DMG, Critical rate, evasion, and other things calculated first. So if our Tenkai's Infantry Unit meets an enemy Archer unit with 1 HP, then it will die without dealing DMG to the Tenkai's unit.

Now for the hard part: I mentioned before Dr. James Grime and his dice, because I had a feeling it would work in this situation. And yes, it does, but it takes some modification of his algebra for the mathematical system to become more stable, and more suitable for a video game. Basically speaking, imagine that every time two units meet, a ten-sided die is rolled by the RNG. The types determine the "winner" and "loser," but the result of the roll has a significant impact on how much one wins and loses in the encounter. As I explained so far, Types do not play a huge role until after the RNG rolls the die. This has ten different outcomes, but they are not simply numbered 1-10. In fact, each die is numbered differently depending on the unit type, and they are non-transitive, just like Grime Dice. Here are my changes and the win percentage in five tables, explaining the dice and their composition. Note that the "Tactics" skill actually changes the numbers present on each die, and allows for near-total domination if used against enemies without the "Tactics" skill. So, you will see 13 numbers for each die, Tactics 1 discards the first and adds the next number, so a Tactics 3 die uses the last ten numbers, from after the first partition to the end:

Die: | Tactics: 1,2,3
Rook, Inf: 4,4,4 | 4,4,4,4,4,4,9 | 9,9,9
Queen, Arc: 2,2,2 | 2,2,7,7,7,7,7 | 7,7,7
Bishop, Mag: 0,0,5 | 5,5,5,5,5,5,5 | 5,10,10
Knight, Cav: 1,1,1 | 1,6,6,6,6,6,6 | 6,6,6
Pawn, Sct: 3,3,3 | 3,3,3,3,8,8,8 | 8,8,8

Just like each unit, these rolls are non-transitive. So on average, the Infantry's "die" will beat both the Archer's die and the Scout's die. All this while the Scout's die on average beats Cavalry and Archer, etc, all the way through the horrid MS Paint diagram above. This establishes a base mathematical foundation for each unit type, independent of and in addition to the Statistics of HP ATK and DEF provided by the unit's members. Note that each type-match up is not 100%, but is still completely non-transitive no matter which level of the Tactics skill the unit possesses. Here are some winning roll percentages without the Tactics skill:

Tactics Level 0 vs 0:
Inf v Arc = 55%
Inf v Sct = 70%
Arc v Mag = 60%
Arc v Cav = 70%
Mag v Sct = 56%
Mag v Inf = 72%
Sct v Cav = 58%
Sct v Arc = 65%
Cav v Inf = 54%
Cav v Mag = 72%

So, around the outside of the pentagram we average a 57% win rate, and the inside averages a 71% win rate. Most enemy units will not have the "tactics" Skill, only named enemy generals and such, while it will be reasonably common for the player's army. If two characters have Tactics 1, then that equals Tactics 2, etc. So more commonly, especially by end game, it would look like this:

Tactics Level 3 v 0:
Inf v Arc = 70%
Inf v Sct = 82%
Arc v Mag = 84%
Arc v Cav = 88%
Mag v Sct = 76%
Mag v Inf = 92%
Sct v Cav = 76%
Sct v Arc = 80%
Cav v Inf = 81%
Cav v Mag = 92%

This is the part of the math I am most proud of, as increasing Tactics significantly and progressively increases win rate, while maintaining full non-transivity. Outside, we average roughly 78% and inside 88% or so. The inside cycle becomes a near-sure bet to defeat the opposing roll, with 80% being the lowest on Scout v Archer, and 92% success for Magic v Infantry and Cavalry v Magic.

Now, the question arises: Why go to all the trouble of "rolling" with the RNG? Why not just plug in the percentages normally? well, that is answered in same unit-type match-ups, and match-ups where the player is at the disadvantage. Units with Tactics skill will have a significant advantage over those without it in the roll, if they are the same unit type. Brains over Brawn is a common narrative in the games, and this feeds into that. So was are again using statistics to communicate narrative and design philosophy to the player.

Now for some more concrete examples with what I've established:
Say the Tenkai's Inf, unit encounters and enemy Inf unit. Let's ignore the die rolls for now. Tenkai has 100HP and 30ATK, 30DEF. Enemy has 100HP, 24ATK and 24DEF. Plugging this into the equation all the way near the top is:

30*1 -(24/2)= 18 DMG to enemy
24*1 -(30/2)= 9 DMG to Tenkai

Stable and progressing nicely, but a bit boring in my opinion. This would be the case if the Tenkai and the enemy had a draw on their roll. Now, let's add rolls to the mix, and assume Tenkai loses, with both units at Tactics lv 0:

30*.9 -(24/1.8 )= 14 DMG to enemy
24*1.1-(30/2.2)= 13 DMG to Tenkai

Now, the ATK and DEF modifiers are increased positively for the winner and negatively for the loser. By a percentage equal to the chance of winning a roll in any given scenario. In this case, there is a 10% chance to win and a 90% chance to draw. So, ATK and DEF are modified by 10%, 0.1 and 0.2 respectively. This makes the encounter basically even. Now, let's assume the Tenkai wins the roll:

30*1.1 -(24/2.2) = 22 DMG to enemy
24*.9 -(30/1.8 ) = 5 DMG to Tenkai

These hopefully show that base ATK / DEF stats are still playing a huge role in the calculation, but can be enhanced by rolls. Now, let's assume Tactics lv3 for tenkai, and Tactics lv0 for the Enemy. This raises win percentage to 36% for the Tenkai, with 58% draw and only a 6% chance of winning. So, it is easy to see that even rarely losing the roll will have virtually no negative consequence for the Tenkai compared to a draw.

30*1.36 -(24/2.72) = 32 DMG to enemy
24*.64 -(30/1.28) = 0 DMG to Tenkai

Almost 1/3rd of the enemy's HP is gone with no damage to the Tenkai. 30 ATK and DEF may be a bit high practically, but it works for this experiment. More likely, a split of 3|3 leading to 20 ATK and DEF would be better. But now let's look at a unit type the Tenkai is potent against, Archers, with 30ATK and 30DEF still in play. Against different enemy types, it is not possible to draw. Someone will win and someone will lose the roll. For Infantry v Archers at Tactics 0, Infantry wins 55% of the time, and loses 45% of the time. Let's assume a loss with enemy ATK/ DEF at 24. If you win the type match-up ATK and DEF can never drop below 1 or above 2 respectively:

30*1 -(24/1.1) = 22 DMG to enemy
24*1.45 -(30/2) = 20 DMG to Tenkai

Because of stats and type, the Tenkai still "wins" the encounter, but just barely. Re-calculating for enemy 30ATK and 30DEF:

30*1 -(30/1.1) = 3 DMG to enemy
30*1.45 -(30/2) = 29 DMG to enemy

This demonstrates that stats are in the end, more important than Types. But overall, Types will greatly help through the Tactics skill. Let's recalculate for 30ATK/30DEF for an enemy archer, this time assuming the tenkai wins the roll:

30*1.55 -(30/3.1) = 37 DMG to enemy
30*.45 -(30/.9) = 0 DMG to Tenkai

The purpose here is to recreate type-match ups from SV and SI, but to make them more chaotic and less predictable, like SII and SIII war battles. For one last example, let's calculate Tenkai at Tactics 3 v Enemy Scout at Tactics 0 with 100HP and 30|30. This Yields an 82% win rate:

30*1.82 -(30/3.64) = 46 DMG
30*.28 -(30/.46) = 0 DMG

With all told, I think this is actually a pretty elegant compromise between the two different flavors of Suikoden War Battles. Of course, Magic units would still have runes to use and Archers and Scouts could Barrage. Perhaps it would be best to slightly nerf their HP in return. But I am tired of doing algebra for now.
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Last edited by Rooks on Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Roshambeaux
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Roshambeaux »

^ That's a lot of information to digest lol. 0_0 I'm going to save the webpage and spend some time to look through it.
EDIT. Hah, the math much easier to understand after giving it a second look. It's very well thought out and makes a lot of sense. Moving the units would be exactly the same as SV, correct?

I'll change the topic back to magic and discuss the pros and cons of using runes and scrolls. I found it odd that you could use scrolls despite being silenced, since casting spells involved repeating some sort of incantation. Here's my proposed idea for how magic should work in Suikoden:

Rune Pros:
Access to level 4 spells
Default casting speed is at 100% and can be modified with skills and equipment
By pressing another button with your controller, you can choose to reduce casting time by 1/3 but spell efficacy/output is halved.
Can use unite magic
MP can be replenished with the help of certain items and runes

Rune Cons:
Can't be used when silenced

Scroll Pros:
Can be used even when silenced
Doesn't cost any mp
Doesn't take any rune slots
Can be swapped out by using the menu item
Can stack them, which would allow you 9 uses of level 3 magic in a battle

Scroll Cons:
Can't use level 4 spells
Can only be replenished by buying them
Casting speed is at 125% and can't be modified
Requires 5%hp to cast (If you aren't using your voice, then maybe your lifeblood?)
No unite magic

I might be missing something, but this is good for now.
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HolyPaladin
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by HolyPaladin »

These are some great ideas, I might even contribute some when I have time.
Roshambeaux wrote:Scroll Cons:
Requires 5%hp to cast (If you aren't using your voice, then maybe your lifeblood?)
Usually fantasy settings tend to leave lifeblood as a casting cost for the darker arts, like Jowy awakening the Beast Rune with his blood.

I suggest using something neutral, like having the 5% HP loss come from the strain of using your body as a conduit to force the spell out. You could even convert this handicap into an unconventional strategy by letting the spell get strengthen if you get Silenced by enemies, having Silent Lake used on the party, or letting S2's Weapon Runes have the opposite effect on characters if embedded into their Head, Left and/or Right Hand and equipping a Silence Rune. That way, for example, Silent Lake has a better use and high HP, low MAG characters have a way to actually use magic. Of course, there would need to be balance with other things, but I think this should help diversify Suikoden's gameplay more.
Showcasing Q here because he's the man! 8) Er, robot. :oops: Wait, cyborg...? :? OK, just what is Q, anyway?!
Oh, and please call me Paladin for short.
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Rooks »

You'll notice, Holy Paladin, that the original cycle from Suikoden IV is preserved in the Rune table on the inside of that Pentacle. The war battles in SIV were OK, but I hated how simple they could be if you just set everything up as you wanted. This makes them much more dynamic. I would recommend counter-clockwise around the outside for defeat and victory.
Roshambeaux wrote:^ That's a lot of information to digest lol. 0_0 I'm going to save the webpage and spend some time to look through it.
EDIT. Hah, the math much easier to understand after giving it a second look. It's very well thought out and makes a lot of sense. Moving the units would be exactly the same as SV, correct?
You should see my scratch paper. . . I had forgotten how to calculate these things, and I couldn't find an online tool for it. Once I relearned it, I did it by hand. I reserve the right to have screwed up once or twice, but I am sure that non-transitivity is preserved except when you are out-tactics'd.

As far as how the units would move, I think it should be turn-based. RTS has become so competitive and near-incomprehensible to outsiders that it is almost in its own world at this point. Without someone with experience making RTS, it wouldn't be very good. Turn based would also allow the ability to display the percentages to the player, so they wouldn't have to memorize everything immediately. Really, the idea is just to merge SII and SIII's war battles with SI and SV. The set-up for SIII was great, but having the RNG decide who attacks and who gets interrupted while casting a rune was tedious. SII's Damage was weird, and relied too heavily on luck. SI was pure luck, until you got the Ninja, then it was too easy. SV has my favorite war battles overall, but they may be improved by going turn-based. IDK really though.
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by Roshambeaux »

Skill Learning Tree EDIT 4: (Mostly Done) I'll type the description of the Armor Protect skill in a different post, since it involves another mechanic that I'll explain later.

Skills will require you to use Capacity Points(CP) in order to equip skills. CP required to equip skills are affected by the character's competency level for the skill. A higher competency level will subtract the CP cost by 1 and a lower competency level will add 1 to the CP cost. However, the minimum CP cost is 1. Below shows when Skill Slots(SS) are unlocked and the amount of CP you gain.

Starting Level: 2(SS),2(CP)
Level 15: +1(SS),+2(CP)
Level 25: +1(SS),+2(CP)
Level 35: +1(SS),+3(CP)
Level 50: +1(SS),+3(CP)

Skill descriptions will be done later.

Skills W/out Requirements: Statistical Skills mostly (Uses 1+/-1 CP) Skill Equip Limit:2 (Done)
Attack, Technique, Accuracy, Evasion, Agility(SPD, Multi-Hit), Vitality(HP), Endurance, Defense, Magic Defense, Magic, Magic Resistance, Incantation, Fire Magic, Water Magic, Wind Magic, Earth Magic, Lightning Magic

Battle Skills With Requirements: Mundane Skills mostly (Uses 2 +/-1 CP) Skill Equip Limit:4 (Done)
Swing, Critical Strike, Freeze, Battle Lust, Counter Attack, Armor Protect, Shield Defense, Weapon Defense, Full Guard, Adrenaline Power, Fighting Spirit, Serendipity , Sprightliness, Affliction, Pierce, Mow Down, Impact Hit, Sharpshooter, Rhythmic Barrage, Enchanted Strike

Magic Skills With Requirements: (Uses 2 +/1 CP) Skill Equip Limit is in the same category as ^(Done)
Magic Condenser, Magic Repel, Chain Magic, Magic Rationing, Spell Charge, Counter Magic, Concentration, Pale Gate Magic, Resurrection Magic, Darkness Magic, Sword Magic(Not to be confused with Sword of Magic), Shield Magic

Epic Skills: (Uses 3 +/-1 CP) Skill Equip Limit:1 (Contains a combination of 3 Basic skills) (Done)
Raging Lion(STA/ATK/END), Armor of Gods(DEF/MDEF/TEC), Triple Harmony(AGI/EVA/END), All-Out Strike(ATK/MAG/INC), Swift Foot(AGI/EVA/TEC), Divine(Element)Rite*(MAG/MDEF/EMAG), Sacred Oath(MAG/INC/MDEF), Path of Kings(STA/DEF/END), Untold Clarity(ACC/TEC/EVA), Zen Sword(ATK/MAG/INC) Requirements: 3 Skills(A)
* There are 5 of this skill, one for each element

Deified Skills: (Uses 4CP) Skill Equip Limit:1 (Contains a combination of 3 Mundane skills) (Done)
Klift's Crusade, Crowley's Sage, Senan's Secrets, Takefute's Trump Card

Most of the skills without requirements follow the Fibonacci Sequence and are self-explanatory. The only exception is the Endurance skill, which affects the character's stamina(I'm still think of how to incorporate this into the game).

Incantation Skill Requirement: None
Description: Decreases casting time for a spell.
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Shield Defense Defensive Ability(DA) Skill Requirement: Able to wear shields, Defense(B)
Description: Increases chance of blocking and absorbs % of damaged received from physical attacks.
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(21%),S(33%)
Example: Let's say the Earth Shield has a defensive value of 48 and the character's Shield Defense is S rank. This is how the calculation would work (48 x 1.33 = 64) so 1/3 of the time, the character would reduce the damage he/she received by 64 percent.

Full Guard (DA) Skill Requirement: Defense(A), Technique(B)
Description: When using the Defend command, increases defense by % and proccing (DA).
E(2%/1%),D(3%/2%),C(5%/3%),B(8%/5%),A(13%/8%),S(25%/12.5%)
Normally the Defend command would increase your DEF by 1.5*

Weapon Defense (DA) Skill Requirement: Defense(B), Technique(B), WPN LV2>
Description: Increases chance of negating a direct attack with weapon, and this includes Skill runes.
E(2%),D(3.5%),C(5%),B(8%),A(10%),S(12.5%)
So here's the probability of a character with a level 16 WPN, Weapon Defense(S), and a TEC stat of 160 proccing this skill: (16/2)+ (160/16) + 12.5 = 31.5% If you were to add Full Guard(S) and that character is defending, then the percentage becomes 44%

EDIT 1

Endurance Skill Requirement: None
Description: It increases the amount of fighting a character can tolerate
E(2%),D(5%),C(8%),B(10%),A(15%),S(20%)
Endurance =(Character's Level)(2) + 20 (Skill Level)

So the Endurance mechanic would be introduced by the time you've acquired the castle; around that time, you have a good number of characters to use in battle. So this is how it works:

You lose Endurance by:
Escape Attempt/Escape = -2 Let Go option doesn't consume Endurance
Every Turn In Battle = -1
Unconscious/KO'd = -20% of Endurance
Lvl4 Magic/Lvl3 Skill = -1
Dojo Sparring = -2

You recover/regain Endurance by:
Toasty Status/Bath Skill = +1 if Battle lasts at least 2 turns
Level Up = +2
Infirmary* = Fixed Duration, only counts active time

To accommodate this new mechanic, limited encounters for dungeons will be set, but will slowly re-spawn.

Condition Levels:
Excellent = 100% Endurance, stats +10%
Good = 80% Endurance, stats + 5%
Okay = 60% Endurance
Bad = 20% Endurance, stats - 5%
Poor = 10% Endurance, stats -10%
Down = 0% Endurance, Combat Stifled/ Must leave party temporarily and cannot rejoin for a fixed duration, and condition must be at least Okay.
* The infirmary will only take characters whose condition is at least Bad. The active time interval for a character's condition to improve from Down->Okay is 1hour,Poor->Okay is 30mins,Bad->Okay is 25mins, Okay->Good is 25mins, Okay->Excellent is 35mins. When I say active time, there are only certain activities that would make the recovery clock "tick".

Actions that will move time needed in order to recover:
Walking from one area to another(like in SIII) = +2-3
Battle/Sparring = +1
5 rounds of a mini-game = +1

Swing Skill Requirement: Agility(A)
Description: Increases the probability of secondary and tertiary hits%. Depends on weapon type
E(3%/2%),D(5%/3%),C(7.5%/5%),B(10%/7%),A(12.5%/9%),S(15%/12%)
| Primary | Secondary | Tertiary | = | 1,2 | 3 | 4,5| DMG= | 100%,80% | 70% | 60%,50% |
For example, a two-handed sword user would not have access to secondary and tertiary attacks, but someone who uses fists or claws would.

Rhythmic Barrage Skill Requirement: Agility(A), Swing(B), WPN Type: Fists/Claws/Knives/Daggers
Description: Increases probability of maintaining 100%dmg for every hit. It also increases multi-hit%
E(3%/2%),D(5%/3%),C(7.5%/4%),B(10%/5%),A(13%/6%)S(18%/8%)

Serendipity Skill Requirement: LUK 100>
Description: Raises probability of being affected by positive status changes, lowers bad statuses%
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Affliction: Skill Requirement: Technique(S)
Description: Raises probability of inflicting bad status effects.
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Sprightliness Skill Requirement: Evasion(B), Agility(B)
Description: Raises movement, EVA%, and when A rank, SPD and EVA penalty from heavy armor is 0
E(3%/2%),D(5%/3%),C(8%/5%),B(13%/6%),A(18%/7%),S(25%/10%)

Freeze Skill Requirement: Technique(S)
Description: Raises probability of cancelling foe's action
E(2%),D(3%),C(5%),B(8%),A(13%),S(21%)

Pierce Skill Requirement: Attack(A), Technique(A), Weapon Type: Thrust
Description: Raises probability of ignoring 1/2 of foe's DEF, (DA), and removes magic barriers
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Mow Down Skill Requirement: Attack(A), Weapon Type: 2-H Swords, Halberds, Pikes, 2-H Axes
Description: Damages cluster of foes%, ATK 1.25*
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Enchanted Strike Skill Requirement: Attack(A), Magic(A) Weapon Type: 1-H Swords, Staves
Description: Raises probability of adding MAG to ATK when dealing physical damage
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Impact Strike Skill Requirement: Attack(S), Weapon Type: Smash
Description: Raises probability of inflicting Stun/Unbalance with attacks, ATK 1.25*
E(3%),D(5),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Sharpshooter Skill Requirement: Attack(A), Technique(A) Weapon Type: Bows
Description: Raises probability of ignoring 1/2 of foe's DEF and raises Critical%
E(3%/2%),D(5%/3%),C(8%/4%),B(13%/5%),A(18%/6%),S(25%/8%)

Magic Condenser Skill Requirement: Magic(A), Elemental Magic(B)
Description: Allows and increases the occurrence of magic doing critical damage
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Magic Repel Skill Requirement: Magic Defense(A)
Description: Raises probability of negating magical damage
E(2%),D(3%),C(5%),B(8%),A(13%),S(21%)

Magic Rationing Skill Requirement: Magic(A), Magic Defense(A)
Description: Raises probability of using lowest level mp possible when casting a spell
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Spell Charge Skill Requirement: Magic(S)
Description: Raises probability of recovering mp per turn, caps at level 2 magic
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Counter Magic Skill requirement: Magic(S), Elemental Magic(S)
Description: Raises probability of casting lowest possible offensive spell when damaged by foe
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

Chain Magic Skill Requirement: Female character's name must be Viki.
Description: Raises probability of re-casting spell used
E(3%),D(5%),C(8%),B(13%),A(18%),S(25%)

EDIT 3
(Spell Rune Name) Magic Skill Requirement: (Spell Rune Name) Affinity(B)
Description: Raises damage output% of spells and decreases spell-casting time%
E(5%/2%),D(10%/3%),C(20%/4%),B(30%/6%),A(40%/8%),S(50%/10%)

Klift's Crusade Skill Requirement: Swing(A), Weapon Defense(A), Enchanted Strike(A), 1-H Sword
Description: Same effect as the 3 skills required in order to equip this one. No stacking
E(2%), % for other ranks are equal to each individual skill but bumped back by one rank level. So, for example, an S rank for Klift's Crusade is one rank weaker than a S ranked Swing skill.

Crowley's Sage Skill Requirement: Magic Condenser(A), Counter Magic(A), Magic Repel(A)
Description: Same effect as the 3 skills required in order to equip this one. No stacking
Percentages are already explained

Senan's Secrets Skill Requirement: Armor Protect(A), Full Guard(A), WPN Specific Mundane Skill(A)
Description: Same effect as the 3 skills required in order to equip this one. No stacking
Percentages are already explained

Takefute's Trump Card Skill Requirement: Affliction(A), Critical Strike(A), Counter Attack(A)
Description: Same effect as the 3 skills required in order to equip this one. No stacking
Last edited by Roshambeaux on Tue Feb 03, 2015 1:20 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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HolyPaladin
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Re: Wishlisst for new suikoden game

Post by HolyPaladin »

Rooks wrote:You'll notice, Holy Paladin, that the original cycle from Suikoden IV is preserved in the Rune table on the inside of that Pentacle. The war battles in SIV were OK, but I hated how simple they could be if you just set everything up as you wanted. This makes them much more dynamic. I would recommend counter-clockwise around the outside for defeat and victory.
That's great actually; I'm glad that you kept the Elemental opposition system from S4/Tactics because I think it was one of S4/Tactics better additions to series's battle system. I wasn't able to look at your war battle system since I've become so busy lately, but I'll put it on my to-do list for when I have time. From first glance, it's looking pretty good.

I was thinking another interesting addition to the Rune Unite system was to have a way to overcome opposite elements not having unites. Since one of Suikoden's basic principles is the bonds between others overcome impossible odds, I was thinking that characters who have or come to have unbreakable bonds can overcome the opposition system and unite opposite elements. These unites would be more powerful than the harmonious ones due to being opposites but would come at a great cost; maybe it'll cost more MP but worth that cost and/or since the unite comes from people with unbreakable bond, perhaps the unite can strain but no break that connection and cause the Unfriendly status between the Unite participants for a few rounds.
Showcasing Q here because he's the man! 8) Er, robot. :oops: Wait, cyborg...? :? OK, just what is Q, anyway?!
Oh, and please call me Paladin for short.
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