Wishlisst for new suikoden game

[highwind44029]

Yeah, I think in whichever platform this gets released, the game could handle a huge amount of sidequests and maybe most (if not all) even shedding some backstory for random filler stars of the 108, some even altering their "fate" at the end of the game.

Unfortunately, I doubt Konami would be willing to make a big enough investment to make the same as comprehensive, but ah... we all could hope.

[Wolkendrache]

Also, maybe a city influence system like in Xenoblade. Just because you free a city doesn't mean they trust you, you have to do some work for them as well.

This could be fun gameplay-wise (I don’t know Xenoblade though). However it must be reasonable story-wise, so we must take towns where we don’t know anybody, for example. I mean, in S2 we liberated towns from invaders who killed their mayor, we’ve supported and defended towns, we’ve saved and recruited their trusted leaders, so in such a story I really can’t see why people wouldn’t trust us.

But this could probably work for the days of the week we get in Suikoden Tactics, where you have a day for each element. The elements could have some effect on gameplay, like maybe they determine what sort of monsters you encounter while traveling (on fire day you get fire drakes, on earth day you get creeper plants, on water day you get sirens, etc.) This could cause you to change strategies from time to time.

That sounds really good. I don’t care too much about the optical enhancement stuff, but I’d really welcome more strategic challenge and a little diversification as gameplay enhancement.

[suiken]

Yeah, I would love to see some side quests of sorts to unlock some Unites/make some people stronger by talking with them. Also, maybe a city influence system like in Xenoblade. Just because you free a city doesn't mean they trust you, you have to do some work for them as well.

Didn't V already provided that with the Lordlake liberation?

[sticky-runes]

Yeah, I would love to see some side quests of sorts to unlock some Unites/make some people stronger by talking with them. Also, maybe a city influence system like in Xenoblade. Just because you free a city doesn't mean they trust you, you have to do some work for them as well.

Didn't V already provided that with the Lordlake liberation?

I think he means having several different quests that gradually enhance the player's influence/reputation with the people of a town, as opposed to having a large story segment like the Lordlake Liberation, where you do one good deed and all the people start liking you.

[suiken]

Yeah, I would love to see some side quests of sorts to unlock some Unites/make some people stronger by talking with them. Also, maybe a city influence system like in Xenoblade. Just because you free a city doesn't mean they trust you, you have to do some work for them as well.

Didn't V already provided that with the Lordlake liberation?

I think he means having several different quests that gradually enhance the player's influence/reputation with the people of a town, as opposed to having a large story segment like the Lordlake Liberation, where you do one good deed and all the people start liking you.

Ah, okay. Never really played Xenoblade Chronicles nor had a chance to.

[sticky-runes]

I haven't played those games either. I have played Skyrim where you can become thane of a town by doing several little quests for individual people, so I assume it's something similar to that.

[suiken]

Non-RPG games such as GTA have that kind of system though. You would work for a certain person throughout the game and earn his/her trust step by step.

[Rooks]

As for me, I have tons of ideas, so I will just stick with ideas fro main-game mechanics. Obviously, cooking, theater, and Rita-Pon min-games would be welcomed back:

1) No stacking powerful or "suicide" runes. In fact, just drop double-strike rune altogether and make Warrior and Magical Runes take slightly less from the DEF and MDEF stats. Effectively, this forces the player to choose between Fury (which would also slightly lower TECH, and by extension CRIT) and Warrior, depending on a character's base DEF. Tanks and Mid-Range characters would make the most sense for Warrior, and "Fencers" with TECH to spare would be a fit for Fury. Though, of course this would be up to the player and the situation.

2) Make the DEFEND command a viable option. By raising counter-attack and doge rates significantly while defending, it becomes a viable option for dealing damage, especially with a Firefly Rune. Also, allow defending players an extra command: Step forward or Step back, forward taunting non-intelligent enemies and back allowing some diversion of incoming attacks.

3) Major Battles should be turn-based, and be influenced by individual character levels. This does not have to be like SIII, but just increasing unit HP along with the levels of the unit's comprising members should be a significant incentive to using large numbers of characters in common battles. Every unit would have three members: Captain, Lieutenant, and Support officer. Captain defining the major role of the unit, Archer, Cavalry, Magic, Infantry, or Scout. Lieutenants offer stat bonuses and special effects, like SII and SIII, and Support officers are made up of largely non-playable stars which give buffs and healing options. For break-down of the rock-paper-scissors-shotgun-Spock effect: Each would have a two stregnths and a weaknesses. Here is an example of the relevant algebra: http://singingbanana.com/dice/article.htm

4) Skills: Return the Skills System from SIII, but have it always effect visible statistics. No more Black-Box Cryptography, as the player should be able to easily grasp what effect leveling a particular skill may have. For example: the Magic skill raises the magic stat by percentages each level, 3% at D, 5% at C, 8% at B, 13% at A, and 21% at S. Note that these follow the Fibonacci sequence, as that sequence is well understood mathematically and is easy to manipulate by other means if necessary. At S-rank a character with 200 MAG rises to 242, also gaining corresponding MP. This allows significant gains without breaking the game's base mechanics. Each character should eventually have 5-8 skill slots, and epic skills should make a return, but should be reasonably rare, and not stackable with corresponding normal skills in order to prevent breaking the mathematical basis for stats. A full skill tree should be available for the player to see, preventing any blind decisions by them.

5) MP: Magic should be powerful, but limited for the most part. There should be no way to recover Lv4 MP, and few ways to recover LV3 MP and lower, aside from a full rest. Recovering MP at all in Suikoden can completely break the game, see Zerase and the Magic Drain Rune. Recovering Lv 1 MP for Kindness Drops is fine, but only of questionable necessity, as ideally you would force players to plan ahead further than that, and manage money and inventory more properly. By the last 4-5 levels, it should be largely expected to use Lv 1 or Lv 2 spells to soften up the enemy parties before engaging them, and A- and S- rank MAG skills should be taken into account for this.

6) Magic Spells: Voice of Earth and Copper Flesh should return to make Earth Runes useful for once. If making a 3D game with SIII-like combat mechanics, friendly fire is fine, as long as it is executed properly this time. Make the battles large and more spread-out, allow free targeting of the spell, and allow the player to resize or even reshape the area of effect to avoid friendly fire. Shrinking the AoE can concentrate the spell, adding a bit more power, while spreading it dilutes the effect, etc. SIII's combat was unique in the first turn, then everyone just stood around in the center and whacked away like an idiot for the rest of the fight. . . this would need to be fixed if going this route.

7) UI/Controller Input: Bind combat inputs to controller face buttons, and allow the player's muscle memory to learn the patterns. So, Attack is square, Defend is X, Runes are Triangle, and Items are Circle. To use -say- Lv 2 magic from a Lightning Rune on the character's right hand: Triangle, Circle, Square, then select target. L2 or R2 cancels out at any time. To Attack an enemy with a Unite: Square (Attack), Triangle (Unite), Square (Specific Unite), select target. This greatly reduces the number of button presses needed to input commands, greatly reduces the number of menus, and speeds the combat up even more. Suikoden's limited number of usable spells and attack skills per character is perfectly suited to this.

8 ) Duel Battles: I have long supported a 2D fighting-game style Duel system. There is no need to be "hardcore" with it though, it is fine to make the duels slower-paced and methodical than a normal fighting game. The basic rock-paper-scissors idea works fine, but I would prefer something more complex. Either a Pentagram Rock Paper Scissors Shotgun Spock like the Major BAttles, or 3 actions based on 3 stances, like two triangles atop one another, with the stance effecting the particular action. You want to give the player some time to hear the battle quotes of the enemy and take them into account, so a slower methodical, but easy to understand fighting mechanic is best.

Uh. . . I could go on a long time. . . but I will leave it here for now. That is about half of the ideas that I have to refine game mechanics, and that does not even touch story, character, and narrative ideas I have. Maybe I will write a sequel to this at some point, as these threads tend to pop up often.

EDIT. Damn script interprets EightCloseParenthesis as an emote. . . I hate emotes. *grupmy old man voice* Get off of my lawn, emotes!

EDIT 2 while my dinner is cooking:

9) Skill points: I think the training Dojo is a great idea. Also, award skill points for exploration, like in Deus Ex. Warren Spector borrowed from Suikoden, so why can't Suikoden borrow back? The party SP function of SV was one of the best parts of the game design, though admittedly the game design was kinda bad all-round. In SIII and SV, though most SP values could just be divided by 10 with no real loss, make it so that even exploring to find just one SP is rewarding to the player. Exploration-based SP should go directly to PArty SP. Make it easy to level up the first few levels of a skill, but increasingly difficult. Again, the Fibonacci sequence works very well for this.

10) Weapon Strengths: Return values for sharpened weapons to a range of 1-175. In SIV and SV, this was one of many missteps that contributed to the unbalancing of the games. Make sharpening from lvs 1-2-3 very weak on average, and make fully-sharp weapons slightly less important to end DMG than Skills, STR Stat, and Runes. This achieves two ends: 1) it makes the beginning of the game more forgiving if the player misses chances to sharpen weapons. 2) it allows for more difficult end-game, as you no longer must adjust the end-game difficulty for people who could not afford weapon sharpening or who missed hammers.

[sticky-runes]

About making enemies more challenging, they should give enemy soldiers the same abilities that our PCs have, such as unite attacks and the ability to use viper/unicorn/hawk runes, so they don't just run up to us for a beating.

[Antimatzist]

4) Skills: Return the Skills System from SIII, but have it always effect visible statistics. No more Black-Box Cryptography, as the player should be able to easily grasp what effect leveling a particular skill may have. For example: the Magic skill raises the magic stat by percentages each level, 3% at D, 5% at C, 8% at B, 13% at A, and 21% at S. Note that these follow the Fibonacci sequence, as that sequence is well understood mathematically and is easy to manipulate by other means if necessary. At S-rank a character with 200 MAG rises to 242, also gaining corresponding MP. This allows significant gains without breaking the game's base mechanics. Each character should eventually have 5-8 skill slots, and epic skills should make a return, but should be reasonably rare, and not stackable with corresponding normal skills in order to prevent breaking the mathematical basis for stats. A full skill tree should be available for the player to see, preventing any blind decisions by them.

That would be broken as it makes already storng characters even stronger, because their absolute stat gain is higher than that of low tier characters. I liked how Epic Skills were done as their bonus was smaller than that of the corresponding normal skill. i think that was balanced enough.

7) UI/Controller Input: Bind combat inputs to controller face buttons, and allow the player's muscle memory to learn the patterns. So, Attack is square, Defend is X, Runes are Triangle, and Items are Circle. To use -say- Lv 2 magic from a Lightning Rune on the character's right hand: Triangle, Circle, Square, then select target. L2 or R2 cancels out at any time. To Attack an enemy with a Unite: Square (Attack), Triangle (Unite), Square (Specific Unite), select target. This greatly reduces the number of button presses needed to input commands, greatly reduces the number of menus, and speeds the combat up even more. Suikoden's limited number of usable spells and attack skills per character is perfectly suited to this.

How are these less buttons than "Down, X, Down X"? They should not try to make some fancy menu/battle UI. Stay true to the formula, but change it so it's interesting. I would hate a battle that plays out like that, especially when it's just for doing basic battle instructions. In a game liek Valkyrie Profile, in which battle is based on button presses, it's different.

[Rooks]

That would be broken as it makes already storng characters even stronger, because their absolute stat gain is higher than that of low tier characters. I liked how Epic Skills were done as their bonus was smaller than that of the corresponding normal skill. i think that was balanced enough.

How are these less buttons than "Down, X, Down X"? They should not try to make some fancy menu/battle UI. Stay true to the formula, but change it so it's interesting. I would hate a battle that plays out like that, especially when it's just for doing basic battle instructions. In a game liek Valkyrie Profile, in which battle is based on button presses, it's different.

Well, let's do some algebra then and take a closer look:
Character X has STR 200+ (S-rank) 21% = 242 STR + 160 Wep = 402 DMG
Character Y has STR 125 (no skill) + 150 Wep = 275 DMG

This is why not stacking "Power" or suicide runes is important, as this would lead to drastic imbalance. Lets say you can only have one rune that can up base STR before skills by 50% and skills only effect base stats before runes, the totals then go to: X, 502 and Y, 338 only roughly a difference of 162 or 1/3 in the overall equation. Which is more than enough to make different characters "feel" different to the player, but without breaking the game's mechanics.

Now, lets add multiple hits to the mix, SIII-style, where each hit is reduced by roughly 30% from its prior hit: X averages 2 hits and Y averages 3 hits. We will add in enemy protection of 50 for good measure:
X: 502-50+ (502*.7) -50 = 753 DMG
Y: 338-50+ (338*.7) -50 + (237*.7)-50 = 591 DMG

This leaves us with a difference of 164 or roughly 30% in the DMG equation. Note how stable the escalation is here, and really that is what you are looking for; stability in the algebra allows for better end-balancing while fine-tuning both character and enemy stats. If we want Wep power to represent roughly 45% of overall DMG for most characters, which is in line with SII, this de-values the Skills, but still leaves them important and rewarding for the player without prohibiting use of characters with fewer skill points available, like late-game recruits. Also, S-ranks skills should be very rare, and likely only 2 or 3 characters should have access to S-rank for any particular skill. B and A would be the norm, and C would still be somewhat common. Plugging A-rank STR into that last equation yields 726 DMG, or 27 less than before. Poetic, isn't it?

Now onto the button binding. Here are some examples:
In SII, to fight in a battle with one opposing enemy, it is X, X. Same with the proposed system.
SII: Lightning Rune, lv 3 located on the right-hand to that single enemy is: Down, X, Down, Down, X, X. 6 button presses.
The proposed system: Triangle, Circle, Circle, X, or four button presses. This would also work on saving presses for Unites and Item usage, for attacking directly, it would not save any, but that is what auto-battle is for. Also, it allows much tighter programing of the menus, allowing for much faster inputs from the player, as there would need to be no animation frames for the highlighted selection to move to the next selection on the D-pad presses.

[Roshambeaux]

How about additions of new status effects and revisions of some old ones?

Poison: Can be inflicted more than once, which means that it can stack. It starts by eating away 3% of your hp, and then increases by fifty percent per additional poison inflicted.

Venom: Decreases max hp by 3-5% per turn. Can also be cured by antitoxin.

Cold: Decreases 3% of hp per turn. As long as this status is in effect, there is a 20% chance of Cold changing to Frozen status. Can be cured by being hit by fire magic.

Frozen: No actions can be taken while in this status is in effect.

Spellbound: Target is temporarily controlled by the opposing party. So technically you can have more than 6 active party members. Can only be cured by status curing magic or after a few turns have passed.

Rust: Weapon levels are decreased by 2 levels and defensive value of equipment is decreased by 20%.

Boundary: Nullifies all damage received from offensive spells. Wears off once you're hit by a spell, except from friendly fire.

Fatigue: Technique, Speed, and Evasion are halved. In addition, spell backfire rate is 25% and must wait 2 turns or consume certain food items for the status to wear off. This will behoove the player to be more judicious in battles and discourages napalming enemies with powerful AoE spells all at once.

The lower and higher tier elemental runes should have completely separate spell list. Also, once you equip a higher tier elemental rune, you should still be able to cast all the spells from the lower tier rune. The mp consumption from the lower tier runes would be like this: LT LV1 Spell = One Level 1 MP, LT LV2 Spell = Two Level 1 MP, LT LV3 Spell = One Level 1 MP and One Level 2 MP, LT LV4 Spell = One Level 2 MP and One Level 3 MP

Water Rune
LV1 Kindness Drops: Fully heals one ally.
LV2 Breath of Ice: Deals moderate WATER damage to allies+enemies in area. Cold(50%)
LV3 Protection Mist: MDEF increases by *1.3 for all allies. Does not stack by casting same spell.
LV4 Silent Lake: Silence(100%) all allies+enemies in area.

Flowing Rune
LV1 Cleansing Drizzle: Clears all statuses for one target(ally/enemy)
LV2 Kindness Rain: Heals all allies in area. Status Cure(50%)
LV3 Eternal Ice: Deals massive WATER damage to all enemies. Frozen(30%) Sleep(30%)
LV4 Mother Ocean: Revives and fully heals one fallen ally.

Earth Rune
LV1 Vengeful Child: Counter Attack rate +50%
LV2 Voice of Earth: Light EARTH damage to all enemies.
LV3 Clay Guardian: DEF increases by *1.3 for all allies. Does not stack by casting the same spell.
LV4 Canopy Defense: Causes Boundary for all allies. Boundary(70%)

Mother Earth Rune
LV1 Earth Chant: MAG increases by *1.3 for all allies. Does not stack by casting the same spell.
LV2 Copper Flesh: HP lock, positive status effects and buffs are locked for 2 turns.
LV3 Earthquake: Massive EARTH damage for all allies+enemies in area. Stun(30%)
LV4 Guardian Earth: DEF and MDEF increases by *1.3 for all allies and last 4 turns. Boundary(50%)

Allies hurt from friendly fire will only receive 10% of the damage the enemies would receive, and their magic evasion would be much greater than normal in this instance.

[Rooks]

How about additions of new status effects and revisions of some old ones?

Poison: Can be inflicted more than once, which means that it can stack. It starts by eating away 3% of your hp, and then increases by fifty percent per additional poison inflicted.

So, 3, 4.5, 6.75, 10.12, 15.18, 22.24, 33.36, then likely a cap? I like the idea, but that progression is too slow considering Suikoden's common pace of battle. Only serious bosses would be able to get over 10%. I would say something far more fast-paced and dangerous, like 10, 20, 30, then capped at 40% Considering how available Kindness Drops and Healing Wind are, I think it is better to err on the aggressive side.

Venom: Decreases max hp by 3-5% per turn. Can also be cured by antitoxin.

Nuance is great for story and characters, but in gameplay you need to be more clear. Many native English speakers can't properly define the differences between Venom, Toxin, and Poison, let alone in the midst of an RPG's gameplay. I like the idea, but roll it into Poison to make the two status effects one.

Cold: Decreases 3% of hp per turn. As long as this status is in effect, there is a 20% chance of Cold changing to Frozen status. Can be cured by being hit by fire magic.

Frozen: No actions can be taken while in this status is in effect.

I'm iffy on this as a whole. The status additions to SV were it's weakest gameplay feature, other than the incomprehensible Dragon Horse racing. If a player can just ignore status effects for the most part, then there is no reason to have them, Chrono Trigger. The SquareSoft way was to make dungeons themselves the battle, slowly chipping away at resources and making resource management a core aspect of gameplay. Suikoden is a bit different, with a very limited bag, all you need is a core set of basic tricks applied to different scenarios; resource management was always accomplished in towns and at HQ, not in the dungeons, and each battle was faster-paced, but enemies hit much harder when they did get a shot in. Honestly, I still like Suikoden's approach better, but it is a matter of taste. In short, 3% is far too low. Make it feel brutal to the player or just forget about it.

Spellbound: Target is temporarily controlled by the opposing party. So technically you can have more than 6 active party members. Can only be cured by status curing magic or after a few turns have passed.

How would the player utilize this? How would the AI react to the effect? So, what good is it to capture a Highland Captain, if I have Viktor, Luc, Georg, Sheena, and Killey on my team already? When I already have a Queen and 5 Rooks, why would I care to temporarily capture a pawn? This could be implemented well, if you ecouraged the capture of Boss add-ons, but we could assume bosses themselves are immune, and requiring a specific spell at a specific time is dangerous, unless it is a True Rune Spell, and even that could be questionable.

Fatigue: Technique, Speed, and Evasion are halved. In addition, spell backfire rate is 25% and must wait 2 turns or consume certain food items for the status to wear off. This will behoove the player to be more judicious in battles and discourages napalming enemies with powerful AoE spells all at once.

Play XCOM: Long War. It is a mod for Enemy Within with a function much like this, without spell backfire of course. It is implemented very well in that game, but see the concept as far more than just a "status effect." Force the player to think carefully about their decisions and even the well-being of characters. So, taking one person out again and again will cause fatigue, but it can be combated to a small extent with things like going to the Bath, listening to music, playing Chinchinrorin, etc. Let them think deeply about the character's well-being. This would be one time I am willing to tolerate a hidden statistic, as combat fatigue is a part of real-life warfare.

[Roshambeaux]

Thanks for the feedback Rooks, but the reason why I thought of these new status effects was to give players an alternative to getting around battles; more specifically, for those who wished to do challenge runs, such as a no weapon level upgrade run or no offensive magic run.

Play XCOM: Long War. It is a mod for Enemy Within with a function much like this, without spell backfire of course. It is implemented very well in that game, but see the concept as far more than just a "status effect." Force the player to think carefully about their decisions and even the well-being of characters. So, taking one person out again and again will cause fatigue, but it can be combated to a small extent with things like going to the Bath, listening to music, playing Chinchinrorin, etc. Let them think deeply about the character's well-being. This would be one time I am willing to tolerate a hidden statistic, as combat fatigue is a part of real-life warfare.

You're very right about combat fatigue, and it's way much more than just a status effect. Perhaps a way to implement an endurance/stamina gauge would to have the character make a comment about he/she not feeling well and needing some downtime after partaking in an x amount of battles. You'll still be able to use them, but if you push them to their limit, then they'll leave -- for good. Plot-related and permanent SoDs won't be available for battle. It can't be something that can be recovered by resting at an inn or a bath house, but instead that character will require that you wait real time before they are able fight once again. In the interview with a Swedish magazine, Murayama said that he intentionally reduced the stats of Gremio and Nanami so that the player would resent them, then feel remorseful later on. This system could have a similar effect and be used as way to create an emotional tether between you and a character(s). Genso Suikoden always had that quintessential quality that made it special; and this could be a device to cultivate empathy from the player to a character(s).

[Rooks]

Thanks for the feedback Rooks, but the reason why I thought of these new status effects was to give players an alternative to getting around battles; more specifically, for those who wished to do challenge runs, such as a no weapon level upgrade run or no offensive magic run.

You're very right about combat fatigue, and it's way much more than just a status effect. Perhaps a way to implement an endurance/stamina gauge would to have the character make a comment about he/she not feeling well and needing some downtime after partaking in an x amount of battles. You'll still be able to use them, but if you push them to their limit, then they'll leave -- for good. Plot-related and permanent SoDs won't be available for battle. It can't be something that can be recovered by resting at an inn or a bath house, but instead that character will require that you wait real time before they are able fight once again. In the interview with a Swedish magazine, Murayama said that he intentionally reduced the stats of Gremio and Nanami so that the player would resent them, then feel remorseful later on. This system could have a similar effect and be used as way to create an emotional tether between you and a character(s). Genso Suikoden always had that quintessential quality that made it special; and this could be a device to cultivate empathy from the player to a character(s).

For A challenge run, then yeah that makes sense. I've never really been a fan of Nuzlocke-style challenge runs, but implementing a difficulty system is something I've wanted in Suikoden for a long time, as the games get quite easy for people like us, who know the mechanics. Thus, changing the mechanics as the difficulty increases is often the best way of implementing a difficulty setting. For new players, heaping mechanics onto them is a very bad idea, and one that is common in RPGs in general, Final Fantasy. . . but for returning players, it can be great. You can also name the difficulty settings after characters, ala MGS4:

Teo: A walk in the Suiko-Park.
Georg: You are strong, but magic hits like a freight train.
Silverberg: For master strategists only.
Odessa: You're gonna die.

Or something.

I'm not too sure I like the idea of members leaving permanently. Because that would alter their characters to a certain extent. Ideally, you'd want to have clear, concise, compelling reasons for them to join, and a leave mechanic could undermine that. I think it is better to just have them refuse. But you are on the right track, as one of the few ways to clearly improve Suikoden would be to create greater cohesion between the narrative and the gameplay. I realize this is a buzz-term for critics and gamers that often don't know what they are talking about, but it is true that generally, the biggest weakness of the RPG genre is that it builds a brick wall between story and gameplay. Suikoden breaches this by the use of Runes informing story which informs gameplay, as I talked about on the Frozen North interview. But it could be improved, too. A fatigue mechanic could work as a bridge so story, character, gameplay, and philosophy are entirely in synergy with one another. [Yes, I hate the corporate buzz-word synergy, too. But look up its original meaning, and you'll see what I'm getting at.]