What makes Suikoden a good game?

[Yensoo]

So I'm starting work on an original RPG (3D) that is highly influenced by Suikoden's style (Mainly 1, 2, and 5) and I was hoping to get some feedback on what each of your individual opinions were on why those games are so good (Again, mainly 1, 2, and 5 but anything about the others is fine too)

Now I don't want this to just be a carbon copy of Suikoden. I still very much want this to be my own game/series, and I just want to take some cue's from Suikoden to try make it better. (Although I may end up taking a couple features almost right from the Suikoden book, namely, a huge cast, good/bad endings, and probably some smaller things like blacksmiths instead of replacing weapons and stuff like that. But nothing is final yet.)

So yeah, let me know what you think makes Suikdoden great (or really what makes any turn based RPG great) And I'll do my best to live up to it. Any idea's you have in general for features and stuff too would be appreciated and taken into consideration. Also I'll try to keep people informed of my progress if people seem like they wanna hear about it.

Cheers!
-Yensoo

[ItsDaveyJ]

Hmm... it's hard to pinpoint exactly but I'll list some of the qualities in the games that I really enjoy.

-Heavy emphasis on story. If the writing is bad, then you will get a bad product. That is where it all begins.
-Diverse cast. Diverse in terms of gameplay, personality, gender, race, culture, religion, (no clear sexual orientation example yet sadly), etc. It makes it so that everybody can find someone that they connect with. Nothing is worse then trying to play a game where you hate every character.
-Epic storytelling. Suikoden has always been on an epic scale. Huge wars, large armies, powerful magic... everything is on a big scale. Yet still rooted in strong characters and the humanity in everyone.
-Customization. Many characters have a clear defined role, but you can still customize it to some degree. You can make your powerful mage a healer or a dish out damage. In S3 you can customize to make your warriors more of a tank or focused more on damage. You can make mage/warrior hybrids. For the most part, you can make any party you want work if you customize them properly. Yet it does this without being overly complicated.
-World-building. You really get a sense of the setting when you play these games. Each country is unique, but it all meshes together seamlessly. You grow attached to the locales you visit. Along with that you see descendants of characters you once knew, or you get to see the impact of previous games, etc. Everything that happens in each game becomes connected... enhancing and developing the world that the game takes place in.

Those are some of the reasons I like the games at least.

[Sasarai10]

Just the idea that you can collect 108 different characters is enough for me


And of course the many secrets found in the game (hidden objects,hidden scenes,alternate endings or alternate ways to recruit someone,etc)

[sticky-runes]

I like the family themes that occur in every Suikoden game. We can all relate to characters having their own little family dramas, arguing with their parents and siblings, etc.

The family connections are also integrated into combat, with characters protecting each other and combining their strength in unite attacks and going berserk if somebody is wounded or knocked out, so it's nice that something like that adds to gameplay.

I also like how dialogue plays out differently in certain scenes depending on which characters you have in your party when you reach a certain event. It's nice to be able to have that kind of control over the story. And being able to choose different paths that have different consequences throughout the story, like staying somewhere or fleeing, supporting a character or choosing someone else, etc. so when you play the game from the beginning you still have a lot of options to try out, it's not going to be exactly the same experience all over again. It all adds to the replay value.

[Yensoo]

Nice! Some really helpful idea's here. I'll do my best to learn from them and make my game better for it! Any other ideas still much appreciated!

[gildedtalon]

Because the English used is so easy to understand, attractive character models, enjoyable music, difficulty is very forgiving

[Jocky]

The main cast of characters has got to be likable, cause if its anything like Suikoden then they're gonna be guiding you through the story the whole way. What I mean is, as you went through S2, you really got to like Riou, Jowy, Nanami, Viktor, Flik and a few of the others that popped up on occasions. I dunno about you, but regardless of whether I was going for the good ending or not, I couldn't bear 2 have someone properly die in the war battles, it just felt wrong!! I mean for god's sake I even cried the first time Nanami got shot in Rockaxe!! Cried like a little girl i tell ya!! AND I'M A 30 YEAR OLD MAN!!
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the games wouldn't be as good without the vast choice of people you can choose from, because there is always someone that appeals to everyone. And all the mini-games and extra scenes really made it 1 of a kind. But, the story and the people are what made these games so memorable for me! Riou, Nanami and Jowy, and all the other stars of 1 - 5, have a very special place in my heart!
I realize I didn't make any new point here but I thought it was important enough to be worth mentioning more than once!

[sticky-runes]

Diversity is a big part of Suikoden for me as well. Different towns and cultures interacting with each other, having their little contrasts and comparisons. Each one has their own political structure and their major source of income, and their own attitude towards war and peace, and we get to see how they respond to a new threat that will affect all cultures that we meet in the game.

There are different personalities, dressing styles, different age groups of characters and fighting styles, even different races. Different classes and occupations, you've got nobles, commoners, merchants, random wanderers, mercenaries, knights, thieves and street performers. Sure, just about any RPG is going to feature these things when you're exploring a whole country, but the Suikoden games actually have us recruiting all of these different people and working and living alongside them - they all become actively involved in our quest, they aren't just people you meet, have an episode with, and then they return to their house for the rest of the game. We see characters from all corners of the map joining and becoming a tightly knit group. Not many RPGs have Suikoden's sense of togetherness.

[BrucePrintscreen]

Suikoden is also good because of what it DOESN'T include: RPG stereotypes.

Seriously, everyone is fed up with the Bad Empire against the Nice Kingdom. SUikoden authors were not afraid of putting on something more original, republican regimes, federations, etc. And also, there are several levels of "bad guy": look at Suikoden 1, Barbarossa is somewhat the head of the bad guys, but behind him Windy is the badder one, and behind her there may be a baddest thing. In Suikoden 2, the bad guys are also not united and plot against each other. This makes it much more interesting than the dull dychotomy you meet everywhere else.

Suikoden games were also superior to Square games because they lack the nauseous fashionista feeling and the overly cute and romantic plots. I find the relationship between Hix & Tengaar much more moving and deep than any relationship between a cool dark Final Fantasy hero and the latest edition of the long haired anorexic brunette with sad eyes wearing Tokyo's last fashion hype.

Edit: don't get me wrong, I don't mean to start a fight about which game is superior, I really try to help you. My point is: if you want your game to be interesting, be very original, because that's what Suikoden was. If I really wanted to play a very classical RPG, I wouldn't go for a fanmade game, I would go for some blockbuster. Your advantage in being a fan is that you don't expect a huge commercial success so you can go for the niche and the bizarre, at worst you will get less clicks on your server but you won't lose the massive financial investment you haven't done in the first place. Take risks!

[Yensoo]

Very good advice Bruce! Yeah I'm trying to go original, but I find myself wanting to copy more and more from suikoden haha XD But I think the plan for now is just to make a shorter game as a sort of "test" and once I get that done I'll be able to better tell what I should do different and make a bigger game down the road without too much extra work, cause I'll be able to reuse the engine and everything.

I'll try to keep you guys posted on my progress if you want.

[Piisuke]

Suikoden games were also superior to Square games because they lack the nauseous fashionista feeling and the overly cute and romantic plots. I find the relationship between Hix & Tengaar much more moving and deep than any relationship between a cool dark Final Fantasy hero and the latest edition of the long haired anorexic brunette with sad eyes wearing Tokyo's last fashion hype.

I wouldn't say Suikoden was superior because of that. There's been plenty of stories in RPG history involving romance which are on par, or close to Suikoden. I found Final Fantasy IX's Shakespearean attempt to be very interesting.
Shadow Hearts does a compelling and heartbreaking attempt over the course in two games. I haven't even mentioned Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI and Star Ocean the Second Story yet.

Speaking of Chrono Trigger, Suikoden definitely took a page out of their book with the Unite Attacks.

What do I think makes a good Suikoden game? The threat of danger. In Suikoden I, you're fleeing from the Empire, you're cornered, but you start freeing up areas within the country to fight back.
In Suikoden II, same thing happens. You're cornered and attacked by Solon Jhee. A surprise victory and the momentum changes in your favour.
In both games, however, you're in danger for a long while until things change around.

Another reason I like is the corruption that keeps creeping in. At first you're blissfully unaware and then it whacks you in the face.

The biggest compliment I can give Suikoden and what makes me think of these as the best games is because I am feeling I am working towards something. My army is growing, people react differently, from being a tiny teenage boy who took over through unfortunate circumstances, I am becoming a person who people look up to. This sence of accomplishment and progression is satisfying.

[ItsDaveyJ]

This probably isn't the most accurate statement to make but it feels like Suikoden is the Game of Thrones of jrpgs.

[BrucePrintscreen]

What do I think makes a good Suikoden game? The threat of danger. In Suikoden I, you're fleeing from the Empire, you're cornered, but you start freeing up areas within the country to fight back.
In Suikoden II, same thing happens. You're cornered and attacked by Solon Jhee. A surprise victory and the momentum changes in your favour.
In both games, however, you're in danger for a long while until things change around.

Another reason I like is the corruption that keeps creeping in. At first you're blissfully unaware and then it whacks you in the face.

The biggest compliment I can give Suikoden and what makes me think of these as the best games is because I am feeling I am working towards something. My army is growing, people react differently, from being a tiny teenage boy who took over through unfortunate circumstances, I am becoming a person who people look up to. This sence of accomplishment and progression is satisfying.

These are very, very true. All in all, it's Suikoden being a very adult game: the important themes are coming-of-age, questioning authority, raising consciousness about corruption... It's more satisfying than saving some bimbo princess or struggling against the kind of sorcerer you heard about in fairytales. I mean, these are good plots when you're a kid, but even as a kid you like stories that challenge you: how many kids preferred the dark and scary Mrs Brisby and the rats of NIMH to any Disney movie? I sure did.

I may be digressing but if you want to write a story you may keep that in mind.

It sort of loops back to what I started with: be different, be challenging, be original.

[Piisuke]

More importantly, do not write a story where you have to collect 4 crystals of the elements!

But seriously, a good story is a story that connects with people. It doesn't have to be original, it has to be compelling. You can easily take pages out of the 'Great Book of JRPG Tropes' and have a damsel in distress who falls in love with her saviour (Final Fantasy VI, VII, VIII, IX, etc).
You can easily start the story with the hero waking up in his bed (Baten Kaitos, Chrono Trigger, Ar Tonelico), or you could have the hero get teleported to a different planet / time (Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Star Ocean series), or you could take a combination of those things and make it your own.

As long as you're trying to be original and can captivate your audience through storytelling, it is fine to use the tropes that come with JRPGS.

Like I said in my previous post, for me the best aspect of Suikoden was the sense of achievement, feeling I was making a difference. Tir was scoffed at by Flik and looked down upon by various characters, but as his list of accomplishments grew, so grew the admiration for Tir from across the country.

[Yensoo]

So much good advice thanks everyone!