So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with something

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TMan
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by TMan »

I figured that would happen, hehe.

Imagining a S2Jowy is more entertaining :P
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sticky-runes
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by sticky-runes »

Would be interesting to see more Highland towns as well. All we got in S2 was a castle and a couple of villages and checkpoints.
TMan
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by TMan »

That's where it gets tricky for me. Anytime where I'll need new assets for new characters or towns I'm kind of screwed. Resetting everything into usable tiles is hard enough- I'm no pixel artist.

But it is a good idea to try to imagine them so I can at least get some kind of organized idea. Maybe Highland can have a Dwarf settlement in their mountains?
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by Pokerface »

After replaying all Suikoden Games I realized that all the fighting isn't just black or white.. but more and more shades of grey. And to be honest.. I like it :)
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TMan
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by TMan »

I actually disagree. Suikoden 1 was pretty black and white. Windy was an evil lady trying to take over the world. The government was corrupt and w got a glimpse of one mayor stealing from his people and some soldiers beating up some poor guy for no apparent reason. As Tir conquers Scarlet Moon Empire, the people in each town are not shy about expressing their happiness over the end of the Empire.

Meanwhile, Suiko 5 got REALLY black and white. If it wasn't enough that the bad guys were just generally being bad, when they started their little genocide against all non-human races, the books were sealed. At the end, we get a teeny little line of "I love this country I just want what's best for it" in a final attempt at making those bland, monotone characters relatable. But it isn't enough to make up for burning the occupants of a city to death, attempting to exterminate the beavers, and threatening to kill all of the water dragons.
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Piisuke
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by Piisuke »

I disagree with OP.

Highland army invaded the City State and Jowy did nothing to retreat his troops, Riou had to retake the lands that were taken from the City State.

I also don't think Jowy was tasked to find 107 Stars of Destiny. Are there two Tenkai Stars in one game? Sure, Tir can be recruited, but he's starless in Suikoden II and doesn't take the role of leader. Jowy might have taken over the Highland army through careful planning, but it doesn't make him a Tenkai Star.

Sure, he has two bodyguards and a tactician, but that's ambiguous.
TMan
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by TMan »

You can't use as Tir as an example. In Suikoden 2, Tir is obviously not gathering Stars. Meanwhile, we see evidence that Jowy is going on similar meetings to Riou such as trips to Grassland to negotiate their recognition as a State and possibly to Harmonia to recruit characters such as Sasarai. We can also see that Jowy has accepted into his fold many characters who are definitely stars in other Suikoden games.

It isn't that there are 2 Tenkai stars in the same 108, it's that there are two competing sides of the Rune trying to complete their fate. Highland invaded City State before Jowy had any power. Jowy realized that Highland was clearly winning this war and felt especially certain of that fact after seeing how utterly disjointed and useless the "coalition" of city states were during the Hilltop Conference in Muse. Jowy didn't retreat because he felt it would be better to shoot for a quick, decisive end to the war.
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Piisuke
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by Piisuke »

Because a character is a Star in one game, doesn't mean he's a Star in another. Again, Tir and Gremio are an example here. Kasumi and Valeria are another.
Leon is a Star in Suikoden I, but his appearance in II doesn't mean he's a Star. It's assumed he's a Star. Same story applies to Lucia and Sasarai.
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"You who follow the Path of Fate...... Heralds who summon the Stars of Destiny. Go forward. To weave your destiny, you must first attain them."
It doesn't state each needs to collect 108 Stars of Destiny, equalling 216, or that they need to collect the Stars of Destiny collectively and Jowy simply strayed off that path.
TMan
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by TMan »

The absence of a character's star in one game doesn't disprove anything. It's that simple.

Honestly your quote only further proves my theory. "Herald" is plural. Two. They both summon the stars of destiny.

And it might be that you are not understanding my theory. I'm not saying they have to summon 108 collectively or that they have to summon 216. I'm saying that whoever of them is successful in gathering 108 Stars would end up being the successful one. Not 216 together, not 108 together. One of them gets 108.

I think it's unreasonable to not even consider the possibility of this. It looks like the Flame Champion's War was happening at the same time as Genkaku and Han's war, and they would have all likely had to gather 108 stars. It's perfectly logical to assume the world can have multiple champion's at a time and that two might go to war.
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sticky-runes
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by sticky-runes »

Piisuke wrote:Because a character is a Star in one game, doesn't mean he's a Star in another. Again, Tir and Gremio are an example here. Kasumi and Valeria are another.
Leon is a Star in Suikoden I, but his appearance in II doesn't mean he's a Star. It's assumed he's a Star. Same story applies to Lucia and Sasarai.

It doesn't state each needs to collect 108 Stars of Destiny, equalling 216, or that they need to collect the Stars of Destiny collectively and Jowy simply strayed off that path.
You don't have to take it literally, it's really just an alternative scenario. Like, what if the scales got tipped in Jowy's favor and it was he who gathered 108 stars instead? There are some interesting ideas to be explored.
TMan
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by TMan »

Jumping back into spin-off- Does anyone have any information on Fort Retto besides that it was the location of Kiba's big battle? Is there any imagery available?

Also I'm imagining putting a coast town on the East Coast of Highland. Less like Banner/Radat and more like a busy bustling Port. Need to justify where Highland is getting all these soldiers from two villages and a castle.
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sticky-runes
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by sticky-runes »

I think a mining town would be nice, and perhaps a Sindar ruin.
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wataru14
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by wataru14 »

http://www.suikox.com/geo/index.php

There isn't much on Fort Retto, but there is a treasure trove of geographic info there for the whole Suikoverse.
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sticky-runes
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by sticky-runes »

^ that web page would probably be more pleasant without that person's dreary comments after each description.
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Piisuke
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Re: So replaying S2 and I'm having a hard time with somethin

Post by Piisuke »

TMan wrote:The absence of a character's star in one game doesn't disprove anything. It's that simple.

Honestly your quote only further proves my theory. "Herald" is plural. Two. They both summon the stars of destiny.

And it might be that you are not understanding my theory. I'm not saying they have to summon 108 collectively or that they have to summon 216. I'm saying that whoever of them is successful in gathering 108 Stars would end up being the successful one. Not 216 together, not 108 together. One of them gets 108.

I think it's unreasonable to not even consider the possibility of this. It looks like the Flame Champion's War was happening at the same time as Genkaku and Han's war, and they would have all likely had to gather 108 stars. It's perfectly logical to assume the world can have multiple champion's at a time and that two might go to war.

Hey, feel free to work on it, man. I agree it's an interesting twist on things, I just don't think it was meant in this way.
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