Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends?

[Aerolithe Lion]

Absolutely Snowe is fleshed out more than most of the characters in the game, but I wouldn't call that character development. That moniker usually refers to how much an individual is altered by the events of the game. Snowe has decision making deficiencies and that really spirals out of control as the game progresses. Ultimately, his 'come to Jesus' moment was him just giving up, which really wasn't out of character for him at all. And even then he admitted how it was in his worst interests to join you.

[Antimatzist]

That's the problem why S4's betrayal scheme is weak. They didn't build his character to be worth noting. He's just there because... he's just there nothing more.

He's hardly there for nothing - Snowe was the one character in Suikoden 4 who got a decent amount of character development throughout the storyline. You might not like his personality, but he was more fleshed out than most of the other characters in that game!

Only because he had a lot of screentime and a lot of "personality" compared to most oither S4 characters doesn't make him really good. I think he could have been done way better. It just seems really random and he just looks like a stupid jerk. "People of Razril, why do you hate me? Because I fight for the Kooluk and fight of our saviors? OH HERO I HATE YOU!!!"

[Piisuke]

Yes, Jowy proves to be an awesome villain because he is clever... dangerous... Snowe is really just an incompetent buffoon. Although, one thing that Snowe did get better than Jowy was his exile - we saw Snowe being shot at with flaming arrows by his own subjects shouting abuse at him . Jowy was dragged away from his house, kicking and screaming for his mama.

Jowy was the guy in the beginning of Suikoden II that didn't see the shadow run away, saying it was probably nothing and then the following day suddenly was like: "liek omg, this might be a trap!"
The same Jowy that was like errr....derp derp, I dunno how to act in front of Muse. The same Jowy who comes in the tent, all surprised you're dressed in your normal clothes WHEN HE'S IN NORMAL CLOTHES HIMSELF.

Jowy has a strong sense of justice and has great development, but he's not clever, at least not as clever as people make him out to be. He's quite slow at times. Like I said before, he has Leon as a personal tactician. People, however, seem to give Jowy credit and seem to forget about Leon.

[sticky-runes]

We are talking in terms of suikoden characters being clever

[Shasarazawoowoo]

I'm replaying SI right now, and just finished Shasarazade (and recruited Sonya)...

So, obviously, we're at ol' Sanchez. I remember being pretty stunned the first time I learned about him being the mole in your army. I never bothered checking the tablet, and I never put much thought into him not being usable in army battles. He was just the other guy who could change your party out, the more convenient guy since Mathiu usually triggered the next phase of the plot. Plus, the mole stuff tends to get shunted to the side in the plot. it really comes up maybe three times, at most (early on before Odessa dies, around the time of the Northern Checkpoint attack, and when Sanchez attacks Mathiu and lights the oil).

In a way, it makes a little sense, but his reasoning was very weak - "I'm old and set in my loyalty, sorry." My heart bleeds, sugar. I feel like we never got to really know him terribly well, though, so it didn't have as huge an impact as it would have if, say, Viktor or Flik were the mole. (Humphrey doesn't exactly have enough lines to be considered impactful.) And the Imperials are being jacked up anyway. Sanchez's betrayals feel ineffective. I mean, yes, getting Odessa and Mathiu killed are huge deals, but only the former feels like any kind of minor setback for the Liberation Army.


Sialeeds and Jowy were much more impactful. Jowy's built as a close friend, confidant, someone who wants the best for everyone. Sialeeds "allies" herself with those partly responsible for her sister's death (as well as Ferid's. Yes, Georg and Arshtat, respectively, were truly responsible, but the events in question WERE set off by the Godwin attack... plus Salum Barow's little scheme some time before, but that hardly counts).

But what they do feels more impactful than Sanchez's actions. Jowy's partially responsible for helping close off as much of Dunan as possible to Riou's army. He's partly responsible for the deaths of two Kings of Highland. And Gizel says it best about Sialeeds: She's the only one who really got what she wanted in the end. She did the dirty work herself and made sure that Lym and the Prince would have far fewer problems down the road with the noble factions once the war was over, her only drawback being dying in front of one of the people she hated most.

Frankly, Sialeeds is probably my favorite "betrayal" villain for that reason - she dives right into the gray area and accomplishes exactly what she needs to, even at the cost of her reputation and life. Even Jowy didn't bring about the end of the war like he wanted to.

[sticky-runes]

I got pissed off with this topic because everybody kept bitching about Snowe and Jowy before, but thanks for bringing up different characters.

[Wolkendrache]

Some more “defectors”:

Alen, Grenseal: Dumb. It wasn’t their personal decision, it was Teo’s wish.

Milich, Kwanda: Black Rune, good idea. Though I still don’t understand why they were the only generals who got them.

Griffith: “Then I'll agree to your proposition. Whether I'm fighting for the Imperials or the Liberation Army, it makes no difference to me, as long as I can eat.” Ha! That’s the way, just let your stomach decide.

Kasim: Great scheme, but everything went to smooth and quick.

Miklotov, Camus: Great! They made a brave personal decision by following their heart.

Kiba, Klaus: This kind of recruitment is the standard one in the novel. The difference being that they never really defeated the hero’s side before joining.

As for Sanchez, that came unexpected. His argument wasn’t really strong but I liked the idea that he was struggling with his heart all the time. I also liked the way Flik pointed his sword at him. Moreover this betrayal led to Mathiu’s death in the final scene with Liukan (this conversation always makes me cry).

[sticky-runes]

Alen, Grenseal: Dumb. It wasn’t their personal decision, it was Teo’s wish.

Wouldn't say it was dumb, just not as deeply emphasized as Camus and Miklotov's situation. We actually got to see how the war affected Miklotov personally, but we didn't get to see anything from Grenseal or Alen's perspective. It could have been a bit more meaningful if we learned more about their relationship with Teo, they obviously looked up to him more than the emperor, and Teo didn't want them to die fighting his son. Camus and Miklotov certainly didn't have that kind of love towards their commander.

[Wolkendrache]

I found it dumb because of the lack of characterization that you mention. It would have been so cool, had they said something like "is that really necessary, Master Teo?" or "Master Teo, it hurts to be forced to fight your son". Or if they told Tir some of Teo's feelings about him after Teo died. But it's more like:
Teo: Attack my son!
Alen, Grenseal: Yes, sir!
Teo: I'm dying, so now follow my son!
Alen, Grenseal: Yes, sir!

[Sasarai10]

As for Sanchez, that came unexpected. His argument wasn’t really strong but I liked the idea that he was struggling with his heart all the time. I also liked the way Flik pointed his sword at him. Moreover this betrayal led to Mathiu’s death in the final scene with Liukan (this conversation always makes me cry).

The fact that he's the only person who is a non-star that stays in your HQ,doesn't bug you?



As for Alen and Grenseal i think they're just loyal to Teo,and they joined Tir's side because of Teo's orders. There are many examples of these type of characters in Suikoden,like Mondo and Sasuke who join under Hanzo's orders or Luc who joins under Leknaat's orders (although it was a good thing that he "woke up" and abandoned her in S3 )


I always thought that these type of characters lack in inteligence

[sticky-runes]

The fact that he's the only person who is a non-star that stays in your HQ,doesn't bug you?

I think a lot of people (I know I did when I first played) just assumed Sanchez was on the tablet, and didn't check thoroughly. I don't really show much interest in non-combat characters.

I found it dumb because of the lack of characterization that you mention. It would have been so cool, had they said something like "is that really necessary, Master Teo?" or "Master Teo, it hurts to be forced to fight your son". Or if they told Tir some of Teo's feelings about him after Teo died. But it's more like:
Teo: Attack my son!
Alen, Grenseal: Yes, sir!
Teo: I'm dying, so now follow my son!
Alen, Grenseal: Yes, sir!

They did at least hesitate when Teo told them to join the liberation army.
This is one of the many reasons I'd like a remake of Suikoden 1, so we can see more of what was happening on the enemy lines. After all, Teo goes from kissing his son goodnight to wanting to kill him on the battlefield. I would like to actually see how Teo reacts when he finds out his son is a traitor.

[Wolkendrache]

They did at least hesitate when Teo told them to join the liberation army.
This is one of the many reasons I'd like a remake of Suikoden 1, so we can see more of what was happening on the enemy lines. After all, Teo goes from kissing his son goodnight to wanting to kill him on the battlefield. I would like to actually see how Teo reacts when he finds out his son is a traitor.

It's true that they're not the only ones to join after being ordered to. But I believe most of the others would have joined anyway, had they been free to decide (e.g. Futch). But not Alen and Grenseal, and their hesitation just proves it. In fact they behave like ordinary officers loyal to the empire, so the only thing that makes them heroic is their fighting skill.
I would also love to watch Teo's reaction. Perhaps he collapsed, and Alen and Grenseal helped him up. Another tragic scene would have been Sonya's reaction to Teo's death.

[sticky-runes]

I would also love to watch Teo's reaction. Perhaps he collapsed, and Alen and Grenseal helped him up. Another tragic scene would have been Sonya's reaction to Teo's death.

I like to think Alen and Grenseal saw Teo as a sort of father figure as well, so maybe they wanted to prove themselves to him even more after finding out his true son was a traitor. Yeah, Sonya would have been devastated. I think it's nice that they included that little talk between her and Cleo.

[BrucePrintscreen]

It is only one of the examples of what could be developed in a Suikoden I-Redux edition. The first game in the series is awesome but has been either rushed or made beyond its capabilities. A redesigned Suikoden I with extra developments would be so great.

[KnightOfTruth]

But Jowy's goals seemed a lot bigger and he was more successful - he went on to become King and tried to resolve a war by his own means.

Obviously that betrayal was significant. I'm just amazed after replaying Suikoden II so many times how much Jowy and "Delita" from Final Fantasy Tactics are SOOOOOOO much alike. Its funny that your quote here pretty much sums up the quintessential ideal that both of these characters held.