Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends?

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sticky-runes
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Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends?

Post by sticky-runes »

Trust and betrayal are major themes in the Suikoden games. This series is just full of people who are our best friends one day, and threatening to kill us the next... Or people who go from wanting us dead to risking their lives for us. Which of these characters have you encountered in the games, and which ones are your favourites? Were they justified in their actions, or do you think they just switched sides for petty reasons? And do you think some of them deserved forgiveness and mercy for what they've done?

You don't just have to restrict your choices to SoDs, and they don't have to be the big, obvious hitters like Jowy and Sialeeds. You might even pick characters like Roget or Busk from Tactics! Lets see what stories you all come up with.
Antimatzist
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by Antimatzist »

I think Helmut's reasons in IV were pretty... weak. it's obvious they aimed for a mixture of KlausKiba and the generals from the first game, but they just failed. They failed with pretty much everything involving the Kooluk in IV imo, so that's consistent. And I never understood why Colton didn't join your ranks.
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Neclord X
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by Neclord X »

Obviusly Jowy is the number one betrayal ever, even if was a bit obvius since the beginning still is the most epic betrayal in suikoden ever. And the worst one is Snow without doubt. It didn't have really any point aside from "we need a rival old friend". But nothing of that character made sense.

In general I don't like enemies that become friends, because... well in 99% of cases is really forced (I say forced for not saying "stupid"). From love to hate there is only one step. sore betrayals are fine. but is not the same from hate to love. I mean, you don't hate someone so much that want to see all his family dead then the next day you are his friend.

I just can't deal with "you defeated me, now I'll work for you" or the thing I detest more "I destroyed entire civilizations in the name of JUSTICE! but I see something in your eyes, young boy that I just met. So I'll stop being an asshole genocide assassin and will join your cause".
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sticky-runes
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by sticky-runes »

Antimatzist wrote:I think Helmut's reasons in IV were pretty... weak. it's obvious they aimed for a mixture of KlausKiba and the generals from the first game, but they just failed. They failed with pretty much everything involving the Kooluk in IV imo, so that's consistent. And I never understood why Colton didn't join your ranks.
Helmut was never given much storyline work, beyond being the son of Colton, and being a kind-hearted soldier who didn't like his job. The part where he asks you to spare his men sort of reminded me of Griffith from Suikoden 1, but we weren't really given any idea of his relationship towards his men. He didn't like the soldiers in town who were being nasty to the people of razril and laughing at them when they were shooting at Snowe's ship, but he cared for the men on his own ship?

As for Colton, I guess he had that old soldier excuse - I've been doing this my whole life, I'm not gonna change my mind now, sort of thing. but he didn't trust Cray, so you'd think he'd want to help us take him out.
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sticky-runes
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by sticky-runes »

Neclord X wrote:And the worst one is Snow without doubt. It didn't have really any point aside from "we need a rival old friend". But nothing of that character made sense.
I think snowe might have made more sense if we actually had dialogue between him and the hero (Suikoden 4 seems to have suffered most from having a silent protagonist) but I always got the impression that Snowe was indulged by his father and grew up believeing he'd make a good knight because his daddy would use his influence to make it so, but it turns out he was a complete failure.

And during the prologue of Suikoden tactics, you get a hint of snowe becoming jealous of his friend when Sir Walter compliments Lazlo's duel technique. so there must have been jealousy growing in him the whole time, and he couldn't put his petty emotions aside and accept Lazlo as a better man and a better leader. But Jowy's goals seemed a lot bigger and he was more successful - he went on to become King and tried to resolve a war by his own means. Snowe kind of lost his ambition and just chose to wander around the ocean without any friends instead of doing the smart thing and joining his old friends on the rebel ship.
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bluemask
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by bluemask »

sticky-runes wrote: I think snowe might have made more sense if we actually had dialogue between him and the hero (Suikoden 4 seems to have suffered most from having a silent protagonist) but I always got the impression that Snowe was indulged by his father and grew up believeing he'd make a good knight because his daddy would use his influence to make it so, but it turns out he was a complete failure.
Talking about Snowe, the plot director of S4 (or whoever it was) made a good sense of making him a very hateful character (like having the urge to smash his face with your ship etc.). However, the rivalry was quite weak and short too. You barely even felt the rivalry at all. Maybe if Snowe realized that the Empire is corrupt and made his own force, maybe the story would get longer (while not better tho). They should have also included in the plot where Snowe is being ridiculed by the higher officials of Kooluk and the players would be able to sympathize with his loss. This way, players would feel a reason for recruiting him and not finding him randomly floating on a log!
sticky-runes wrote: And during the prologue of Suikoden tactics, you get a hint of snowe becoming jealous of his friend when Sir Walter compliments Lazlo's duel technique. so there must have been jealousy growing in him the whole time, and he couldn't put his petty emotions aside and accept Lazlo as a better man and a better leader. But Jowy's goals seemed a lot bigger and he was more successful - he went on to become King and tried to resolve a war by his own means. Snowe kind of lost his ambition and just chose to wander around the ocean without any friends instead of doing the smart thing and joining his old friends on the rebel ship.
Yeah, it was quite apparent and obvious. Maybe they got scared that emphasizing rivalry will only mirror S2's plot and honestly, I think the war in S4 looked smaller than S2 was so Jowy had a bigger goal. Also, Jowy is a smart man while Snowe is well, a not-so-smart one; a reason why he might not have thought of these things (storywise).
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sticky-runes
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by sticky-runes »

Yes, Jowy proves to be an awesome villain because he is clever... dangerous... Snowe is really just an incompetent buffoon. Although, one thing that Snowe did get better than Jowy was his exile - we saw Snowe being shot at with flaming arrows by his own subjects shouting abuse at him :shock: . Jowy was dragged away from his house, kicking and screaming for his mama. :(
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by Nikisaur »

Jowy. Jowyjowyjowy. His betrayal was the best. I also like the way it divides fans, so some people love him, and some hate him. I think that's the mark of a great storyline.

I agree with what's been said about Snowe. Sialeeds is a more interesting case. I wish they'd made her reasons a bit more clear, as things have more impact if your not sitting there trying to figure it out forever.

Also, a bit more minor, but Pahn in Suikoden 1 was the first proper betrayal I experienced. I loved that he was allowed to redeem himself, even making the ultimate sacrifice for Tir. I thought that had really good balance.
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sticky-runes
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by sticky-runes »

Yeah, Pahn was another good one. I found his duel with Teo very moving - it wouldn't have had that kind of impact if he did just go along with you at the beginning like Cleo and Gremio. He's a guy who makes an honest mistake, and does what he can to make up for it. If you let him die, it does add a bit of poignancy to the rest of the storyline, so that's quite cool!
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Aerolithe Lion
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by Aerolithe Lion »

Nash is a more subtle one, as he was a Harmonian spy the entire time he was with Chris, but in the end the Bishop he was working for joined you anyway. However at the time, you and Sasarai were at odds.
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EstrangedIX
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by EstrangedIX »

Totally agree about Pahn. I think he's at the top of my list for all of the above mentioned reasons. I like Nash too but I didn't really think of him as an enemy. And they definitely should've given more depth to Helmut since he had a lot of potential to be a better character (he's still one of my favorites from IV though).

As per showing Snowe getting crapped on by Kooluk officers, I think that would come off more like "man, even Troy wants to punch him in the face" :lol: and since a lot of fans probably like Troy more than Snowe he still wouldn't get any more sympathy.
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sticky-runes
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by sticky-runes »

I wonder if Snowe's situation with the Kooluks was kind of similar to how Sialeeds felt towards Euram - oh, he's not a threat, let's just leave him in charge and let him bring the place to ruin himself!
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Aerolithe Lion
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by Aerolithe Lion »

I don't think the Kooluks cared that much about Snowe to even put him in that position. He wasn't worth worrying about
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bluemask
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by bluemask »

That's the problem why S4's betrayal scheme is weak. They didn't build his character to be worth noting. He's just there because... he's just there nothing more.
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sticky-runes
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Re: Friends who become Enemies or Enemies who become Friends

Post by sticky-runes »

bluemask wrote:That's the problem why S4's betrayal scheme is weak. They didn't build his character to be worth noting. He's just there because... he's just there nothing more.
He's hardly there for nothing - Snowe was the one character in Suikoden 4 who got a decent amount of character development throughout the storyline. You might not like his personality, but he was more fleshed out than most of the other characters in that game!
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