Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

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Hork
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Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Hork »

This last two months or so I've wanted to save up some money so I've stayed home on weekends and gamed. I played Suikoden I, Suikoden II, and just finished Suikoden III again.

I want to let it be known that I think Yoshitaka Murayama is one of the best fiction writers of the modern era...without a doubt.

He captures the "little guy standing up to corrupt institutions" that we all wish we could do in real life but don't have the guts to. The same principle that made the original Outlaws of the Marsh (by Shi Nai'an and Luo Guanzhong) so great. There's not one person reading this that didn't cut off Kraze's head...you know you did and you know it stirred something up in you when you chose to do it. For me, the best was Thomas in Suikoden III, after being a push-over and a little whimp through two whole chapters, he finally makes a stand and refuses to leave Budehuc. When he does, even Juan and Eike show some emotion at that point (and there's no way you didn't feel something too when he made that stand). Thomas was the littlest of "litte guys" but he had the pride to tell the corrupt Zexen bureacrats to fark off! I love that part.

I feel emotions well up when Nanami gets an arrow shot into her in Matilda. It gets me every time. She's such a nice girl, a good older sister who cares about her brother, but she doesn't want to fight in this stupid war over greed and power...she just wants to travel, see the world and be free. She didn't deserve that arrow, and everyone knew it...especially that focking idiot Jowy.

Suikoden IV and V are decent games that use Murayama's model well but they are not the same. Just like Ren and Stimpy wasn't itself without Jonh K. or the Dead Kennedys wasn't itself without Jello Biafra. Suikoden is not really the same without Murayama. I have them, but I don't think I'll play them again...they're just not the same.

It should be noted that I think the ending of Outlaws of the Marsh was edited over the years by a corrupt institution along the way. I think in the original ending Song Jiang and the bandits don't go fight Fang La in the name of the Emperor, I think that part is bullshit. I think in the original author's text, they got that focking Gao Qiu and cut his focking head off. I have a good feeling the ending of Outlaws of the Marsh was changed by ancient Chinese censors. Who knows, maybe the bandits even killed the Emperor in the original.

Is it fitting that the end of Murayama's beautiful Suikoden story was written by someone else, just like the original probably was? I don't know. It's history repeating itself, I guess.

There's only a few other games I consider as literature, Itoi's Mother games, Final Fantasy VI and VII, and Chrono Trigger (and maybe a few others). Suikoden I, II, and III by Murayama are truly literature in every sense of the word and might be the best story a video game has ever had.
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Piisuke
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Piisuke »

I thought Suikoden V was brilliant and it really captured what I felt when I was playing Suikoden II. The only thing I didn't like about Suikoden V was the strategist. I don't think you ever lost a war battle, which was kinda disappointing. Both Shu and Mathiu had to pull out a few times when things got heated.

As for Nanami, she was genuinely annoying me constantly forcing herself into my parties. It wasn't as big of an issue as Gremio was in Suikoden, due to having entourages, but it was still annoying. However, it was sad to see her "die". Gremio's death was sadder, due to it being an actual death, as opposed to Nanami, who was merely hiding so to not stand in Riou's way.

As for games being considered literature, I would like to add Final Fantasy IX to that list as well. Shadow Hearts: Covenant, Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater and the Assassin's Creed franchise are also stories that have plenty of twists and whatnot to keep you excited. I didn't mention FF VII or VIII as both game's stories are undeniably a mass of plotholes.
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Xelinis
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Xelinis »

At the time, I loved Suikoden V and thought it was a great return to form for the franchise. However, I took a critical look at the game recently and I've begun to realize something. It has what I believe may be the underpinnings of the direction the franchise has gone in. I've mentioned this before in other topics, but I loved the classic Suikoden games because of their roots in the Western High Fantasy genre, despite an Eastern coat of paint. Of the main games, Suikoden V is perhaps the most anime-ish, not just in looks but in plot structure and character development as well.

I still think Suikoden V is a great game, but if Murayama was ever given the opportunity to reboot the franchise, I would not bat an eye if he decided to retcon it from the canon. In fact, I would probably prefer it if he did.
Hork
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Hork »

I agree that 4 and 5 were good games...but they are not in the same class as 1/2/3.

Suikoden One-Two-Three are really really good video games.
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Raww Le Klueze
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Raww Le Klueze »

If we're looking at the plots as literature then no, I can't agree.

Suikoden is a product of it's time, sure, but the plot is bare-bones. It's more like a light novel for young readers, inside the actual game there's not a lot of detail and characters aren't very well developed. It's only through supplemental materials outside the actual game that we get the finer details about anything.

Suikoden III suffers from a horrid pacing where it is crawling through chapter 1 - 3 only to speed up and crash head first into a brick wall in chapter 4 and 5.

Suikoden II, maybe. But it loses focus after killing Luca Blight and the plot gets less involved.

But games are more than their stories. The only ones that can be fairly compared to literature are Suikogaiden which are basically novels pretending they're games.
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sticky-runes
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by sticky-runes »

The "It's not the same" argument bores me. No offense intended to anyone, I've just seen it too many times relating to other franchises that have gone through changes, and I find that kind of attitude narrow-minded and snobby. I don't look at these games as an original author's work that has been defiled, I look at them as a mythology. The first suikoden game introduced us to this world with it's own history and powers, and the other games, including 4, 5 and Tactics, have expanded on that, showing us other wars and other countries and True Runes in different eras, in the same universe. That's what I want in a series - to see it growing and expanding on itself. When I read the Greek or Norse myths, I might not find some legends as appealing as others, but I still accept them all as stories from the same mythology with the same gods and intertwining events. Similar to how I don't dismiss suikoden 4 just because it's not as lively as the older games. I've really come to embrace a lot of characters and ideas that were introduced in 4 and 5 and Tactics, so as far as I'm concerned, they deserve they place among the other games.
Hork
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Hork »

This was in April 2012 I was replayin' these games. Last week I replayed IV (4) and I'm gonna do tactics and V again too.

Four (IV) is a good game, I like the story and chars and it tries to stay true to the formula by just re-hashing everything from the first two games (even using the same char designs as "ancestors").

Gameplay wise it's like Uncharted Waters Online but instead of 90% trading and 10% story like in UWO...it's 90% story and 10% trading.

Overall Suikoden Rankings (in my opinion):

S3: 9.5
S2: 9.2
S1: 9.0
S4: 8.2
S5: 8.1
TACT: 7.5

I never played the DS game.

I still think 1-2-3 are in a class of their own still though.
TMan
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by TMan »

I'd like to add my two cents.

I consider Suikoden 2, hands down, the best story I have ever seen, read, heard, or thought of. In my opinion, it is the best story across any medium that I will ever know.

I wouldn't call it literature. That puts literature on an unfair pedestal. As if just by being written word it somehow holds more value. I say nay!

But I digress. And about the plot losing steam after Luca gets killed- yes it definitely does. But it's the fact that the game slogs through those closing chapters instead of creating a plot so we get to kill Luca and save the country all at the same time is incredible. It was, in my opinion, quite brave to give us the game's main antagonist so much earlier than the end of the game.

In my opinion, that kind of honest bravery in story telling, the willingness to depart from the formula, are what helped to make Suikoden II such an amazing experience.

Also, Nanami's death never bothered me in the least and it still doesn't. I actually think their piss poor job of handling her character throughout the game makes feeling anything at her passing almost impossible.

Gremio on the other hand.... Niagara Falls.
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Neclord X
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Neclord X »

I still think Suikoden V is superior to S3 and almost equal to S2. Even if the writter is not the same one than the first three titles the writting is AWESOME, as is the game execution. Since it does a great work presenting the country, their culture, the characters and their feelings. You really feel it like a country with its culture, traditions and problems is not just a compendium of different cultures and/or random fantasy.

S5 weakness from the plot point of view is it doesn't introduce much new lore into the series. But aside of that the writting was superb.

That's why S5 feels like the second one, because it makes the effort of creating a credible unique setting.

I feel S5 more like the first two titles than SIII, for example.

Although I still think SI was pretty weak in the setting part, it created the the franchise and started to introduced the world and the lore to us, it tried to create too that unique setting but that half of the game was blunt high fantasy thrown at our faces "here there are elves that lives un a forest" "here there are the mining dwarfs". Wasn't until S2 where that world was developed.

S3 had great writting but doesn't feel much because the first two titles, first for the gameplay, but more because it someway focused more on the plot than in the setting so the immersion wasn't as good as in SI,2,3.

In other worlds, I understand someone can like more one or other depending of certain factors but I don't understand why some people says "doesn't feel like the first ones" just because is written by another person, when its more like the first ones than S3.

PD: As always I prefer ignore the existence of S4
Hork
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Hork »

I like some things in V.

I really liked the air time given to Big Time Gergie Prime, he's a bad ass man. And....I liked Logg cause he reminds me of my dad a bit.

I hated the ending....I didn't understand why in the hell all the villains were there smiling and urgh...it made no sense.
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sticky-runes
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by sticky-runes »

Hork wrote:I like some things in V.

I really liked the air time given to Big Time Gergie Prime, he's a bad ass man. And....I liked Logg cause he reminds me of my dad a bit.

I hated the ending....I didn't understand why in the hell all the villains were there smiling and urgh...it made no sense.
I don't bother with the "happy" ending in S5.

First of all, I choose to defend the castle and let Roy get killed. This gives us two fierce battles to fight and also gives us one of the most emotional cut scenes in the whole game. The whole business of hiding with the dwarves and sneaking into the dragon horse lair was shite.

and I quite happily let Lyon get killed off at the end. I do like her duel with Dolph, it was nice to mix things up a bit and have a girl fighting one of my duels for a change. But I like it when Georg gives me a hug and I get to travel with him and not have that bitch yapping all the time. Two honorable sacrifices is better than the wussy version where I get to see a bunch of ghosts prancing around at the end.

Imagine if you completed S2 and got to see Luca, Gorudo and Han Cunningham waving goodbye to us? Blurgh.
Hork
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Hork »

Maybe with that weird S5 "happy ending" they were going for something like..."hey without us villains there wouldn't have been a story!" type of thing.

In S3, the villains are stars of destiny...like they're saying without them this story wouldn't have happened. But, at least you get some insight into Luc's emo ways and his sort of reasonings for wanting to destroy the universe. In S5, I literally just beat those loser aristocrats and didn't really want to see their smiling ghosts as the ending.

This is a theme in the Water Margin novel as well. Liu Kui is the star of destruction or something of that nature and he does some really really messed up things. Like in one part, The Long Bearded doesn't want to join the 108 SODs because he has to look after some little kid....so Liu Kui kills the kid. It's explained by some Taioist guy on a mountain later on that the effects and reactions of Liu Kui's actions will lead to the change of history. They're saying, without terrible actions history will not be altered...and the story wouldn't happen. (No SOD in Suikoden who shares Liu Kui's slot ever does any totally messed up stuff though, the only thing that is carried over from Liu Kui is the Two-Axes motif like we see in Fu Su Lu and Helga).

The actions of Luc in S3 fit this motif from the novel, the writers got it. I think in S5 the writers were going for this too...but I don't think they got it.

Smiling villains at the end of the game bein' all like "We were important to the story too gaiz!" is just dumb.
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EstrangedIX
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by EstrangedIX »

I can definitely see why Luc & Co. were SoD's. Albert said that Luc's plan wouldn't have worked. Harmonia's to conquer the Grasslands however, would have. So Luc's actions are what made Harmonia (or Sasarai at least) give that up to join the Fire Bringer. That's not the case with V's antagonists, and it's weird that they get featured like that at the end.
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sticky-runes
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by sticky-runes »

It wasn't even in character for them, especially Alenia. She's been this haughty ice queen all the way through the story, then we see her spirit prancing around like a little girl clapping and flailing her arms about, WTF? She must have been off her tits from the raging nostrum or something.
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Royi
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Re: Recently replayed Suikodens 1 through 3

Post by Royi »

ghosts thing was weird. I liked the ending overall besides that though.

I would rather have a scene where the Prince is peeing on both Gizel's and Marscal's Graves.
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