Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

A forum for questions and discussions about the PSP game roughly translated as "The Woven Web of a Century"
Exophase
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Exophase » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:38 am

Yes, anyone can "shoehorn" connections. And anyone can make expand on something to make it look like it was foreshadowing when it wasn't. So tell me, do you think they always intended to make a game about the million worlds?

Tierkreis uses an infinite worlds concept that's used all the time in fiction and is implied to be based on a theory of quantum mechanics: given non-determinism of quantum events there are only probabilistic outcomes, and each of these "exist" as a separate universe. In Tierkreis we see universes that have different "versions" of what is in the primary one. So everything started the same but went along different paths.

We don't know if this is at all how the million worlds in the original series works. All we knew is that there were different fantasy domains that had nothing to do with each other, and I would believe never had anything to do with each other. So no, I don't think that Tierkreis actually borrowed from Suikoden's "million worlds" at all here, but merely used a very common literary theme, far too common to call this a familiarity.

tiki
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby tiki » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:46 am

the problem I have with 'Million Worlds' is the idiocy that spawns from it

oh so there's an infinite number of universes that contain absolutely anything and everything ever?

sweet, so that means that literally everything is canon

Final Fantasy 7 world is canon to Suikoden, Twilight is canon to Suikoden, the fanfiction where Riou and Tir hook up and get each other male pregnant?

yeah that's canon too, that had to happen somewhere in the Infinity

this is why I detest anyone who actually attempts to make use of an 'Infinite Worlds' trope as an excuse to get away from obligations to telling the story they started with

either you do like Final Fantasy and you tell a different story in a different world each installment, or you do like Suikoden did and tell a different story in the same world because mixing-and-matching isn't going to do anything but piss a lot of people off
Last edited by tiki on Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

Exophase
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Exophase » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:49 am

Infinite worlds doesn't imply that anything conceivable exists. There are infinite real numbers between 0 and 1, but none of them are 2.

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Rachael
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Rachael » Sun Sep 25, 2011 4:48 am

tiki wrote:you know what, you're right

I just looked it up, they do actually reference the Million Worlds

so Tierkreis is canon to Suikoden after all

thanks for setting the record straight, Raww (:


At least, though, you're willing to admit when you're wrong. I respect you for that.
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LanceHeart
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby LanceHeart » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:19 am

Exophase wrote:Tierkreis uses an infinite worlds concept that's used all the time in fiction and is implied to be based on a theory of quantum mechanics: given non-determinism of quantum events there are only probabilistic outcomes, and each of these "exist" as a separate universe. In Tierkreis we see universes that have different "versions" of what is in the primary one. So everything started the same but went along different paths.

We don't know if this is at all how the million worlds in the original series works. All we knew is that there were different fantasy domains that had nothing to do with each other, and I would believe never had anything to do with each other. So no, I don't think that Tierkreis actually borrowed from Suikoden's "million worlds" at all here, but merely used a very common literary theme, far too common to call this a familiarity.

You're forgetting that there were blatantly two separate Viki characters in two different Suikoden games. Both know of the same dimension (Old Viki's "home") but it is never implied that they're the same person nor are they even considered as such when the Stars of Destiny are involved. That's very much like in Tierkreis, where Stars of Destiny would bind to new world inhabitants and characters from other worlds wouldn't even have the same Star of Destiny bound to them in their own world. (Marica? being the Tenkai Star in one world but Marica being Tenei in the main world).

Then again, nobody has ever thought to question the old and new Suikoden teams about the entire Million World concept ever since Tierkreis came out. Konami isn't the most forthcoming with new Suikoden info anymore, which would likely come from the first real gap between two major games since the one between 3 and 4.
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Exophase
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Exophase » Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:49 pm

LanceHeart wrote:You're forgetting that there were blatantly two separate Viki characters in two different Suikoden games. Both know of the same dimension (Old Viki's "home") but it is never implied that they're the same person nor are they even considered as such when the Stars of Destiny are involved. That's very much like in Tierkreis, where Stars of Destiny would bind to new world inhabitants and characters from other worlds wouldn't even have the same Star of Destiny bound to them in their own world. (Marica? being the Tenkai Star in one world but Marica being Tenei in the main world).

Then again, nobody has ever thought to question the old and new Suikoden teams about the entire Million World concept ever since Tierkreis came out. Konami isn't the most forthcoming with new Suikoden info anymore, which would likely come from the first real gap between two major games since the one between 3 and 4.


Nowhere is it implied that Viki and little Viki are from two dimensional variations either. And being different stars doesn't necessarily mean they're not time displaced versions of the same person, given that this is a situation where the two versions play two different roles at the same time. Although we don't see it happen outright (unless we do and I can't find it) we don't know that someone can't change stars - certainly a lot of people have relinquished their stars while still alive and some have even taken them again, and in Suikoden II Tomo's star is based on if you choose Kasumi or Valeria.

Even if they aren't the same person there are any number of plausible explanations that are just as valid as multiple dimensions. They could be clones or they could be part of an entire race of Vikis, for all we know. If she was from a different dimension you'd think she'd know this, and you'd think mentioning the dimension would be information as pertinent as the time period, which she did mention. Saying that this links to Tierkreis is really reaching.

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caspiancomic
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby caspiancomic » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:45 pm

I know this isn't really the place to be discussing the whole Viki thing, but I think it's been stated quite clearly in no uncertain terms that a person cannot change their star. I don't quite remember where it was stated(must have been some supplementary material or another), but as a community we've been using that fact as the foundation for discrediting a lot of the more unusual theories to crop up over the years.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby DoReMi_Vampire » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:30 am

Exophase wrote: ...and in Suikoden II Tomo's star is based on if you choose Kasumi or Valeria.

Tomo was always both stars so it's not like her star changes.

There are several ways that could explain why the two Vikis are completely different persons. If they aren't though I wouldn't mind. Her star might change when her personality changes since it will affect how she's destined to play her role in destiny's plans. But for now it's nothing but speculation.
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Piisuke
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Piisuke » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:39 am

That would bring forward the question though, how a person can be two stars.
I think it is more of a gameplay issue than anything else.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby DoReMi_Vampire » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:41 am

I already made a topic for this some time back since I was wondering about this myself.
http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=12346

The conclusion I made after some heated discussion was that people become Stars of Destiny due to their actions and the roles they play in destiny's plans. Tomo might be a rare case who has to shoulder two destinies and follow more than one path in life, but until any of those theories are confirmed in an official game it will remain nothing but a gameplay-mechanic.
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Exophase
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Exophase » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:03 am

The Tomo thing is admittedly kind of weak. It could just be a gameplay mechanic where she was always the other star in the game you played.. kind of like how we you can meaningfully impact the world with some user choices, but the sequels are assumed to just go with one of the choices (except where save imports are involved like Gremio in Suikoden 2). Or it could be that she really didn't have a star until that point in the game and it was totally hinging on Riou's decision. We don't really know, but I guess it's not worth using as support.

Still, would like to see this material that says someone can't change stars.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Antimatzist » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:31 am

We have never seen it, so that's the best we can say. Of course there could be the possibility that people can change stars, but as long as we haven't seen it, I would not bet on it.

Don't know if it was ever mentioned in any game.. the games never really talk much about this sort of thing (Tierkreis being an exception).

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Nikisaur
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Nikisaur » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:29 pm

Tiki, do you really have to repost the same argument every time someone says they're excited for a new Suikoden? I understand that you have strong feelings on the issue, but I'm pretty sure everyone who has read even a page of one of these new threads is aware of your opinion. I'm only saying this because I feel like it's kinda ruining the announcement for me a wee bit. Though this is probably good news to you.

Personally I've enjoyed every Suikoden I have played so far, therefore it stands to reason that I'd want to buy something with the Suikoden label on it - I expect it to be good. If it is released in my country, I'll buy it. Not because I'm blindly following the name of Suikoden, but because every title I've bought so far I feel has been worth it. If I don't like it, I WILL make my opinions heard. But only after I have a decent argument, with actual evidence to go on.
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JiggleBiscuits
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby JiggleBiscuits » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:25 am

Nikisaur wrote:Tiki, do you really have to repost the same argument every time someone says they're excited for a new Suikoden?


There won't be a need for it when people realise she's right.

Darth Lampe
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Darth Lampe » Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:35 am

JiggleBiscuits wrote:
Nikisaur wrote:Tiki, do you really have to repost the same argument every time someone says they're excited for a new Suikoden?


There won't be a need for it when people realise she's right.


The point is above your head it seems. People aren't saying she's wrong, they're saying there's no information to verify anything. She could very well be correct.

As for me, I liked Tierkreis, I'd be happy with another one.


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