Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

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Feldoon
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Feldoon » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:09 am

Wait. Are we still arguing whether or not Million Worlds is actually part of Suiko "canon"?

That's dumb. It is. The argument should be whether the Infinity as presented in Tierkreis is an adequate interpretation of it.

Exophase
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Exophase » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:26 am

Feldoon wrote:Wait. Are we still arguing whether or not Million Worlds is actually part of Suiko "canon"?

That's dumb. It is. The argument should be whether the Infinity as presented in Tierkreis is an adequate interpretation of it.


With a million worlds (or more, that's probably not an exact number, it could be infinite) it's hard to really present any kind of interpretation at all. The original series doesn't say much about a unifying nature of all of the worlds and while I haven't played that much of Tierkreis I'm led to believe that it doesn't go into detail describing a large percentage of these worlds.

But any relation is probably coincidental, or at best grafted on as an attempt to appeal to fans of the original series. Komuta did actually make the claim that Tierkreis has the "same" multiverse:

"Osamu Komuta, Director: The concept that ties the series together is the concept of the infinite nature of the universe which is the idea that lots of other worlds exist, not just this one. Some are a lot like this world while others are completely different and this idea is the same in the universe of Suikoden where the previous games and Suikoden Tierkreis can both exist but in different parts of the same game universe. We refer to all of the worlds as the “Infinity”."

But I think we all know this is a really weak attempt to try to appeal to fans of the original.

Anyway, the more I read these interviews and think about it the more it seems clear to me that Tierkreis had the plot it did because Komuta was so gung ho about the story concept and thought we'd be really impressed with the idea of infinite parallel universes. But he's also used the "infinite" stuff a lot to say that anything can happen in the "series", which sounds like a nice way of saying they can be lazy and stop making any of the games connect to each other, but doesn't really mean they have to. Considering this:

"I think Tierkreis made Suikoden’s future truly infinite because the game’s universe now lives in the “Infinity” where it is possible for all the games to co-exist while leaving room for great growth and exploration in the series because both Tierkreis and the previous games are essential elements for the Suikoden universe.

We hope to continue developing Suikoden games with the new freedom we are now afforded with the boundless nature of the “Infinity.”"

It means that saying the PSP release is "another game in the million worlds" is meaningless. According to Komuta that would apply to anything done in the series. This basically reads to me as nothing more than marketing crap and could read "another game in our series where we do whatever we want." So we can't say too much about it. But to me I'd expect the most likely outcome to be that the new game has nothing to do with either the original series or Tierkreis, and there's a good chance it itself doesn't contain multiple universes.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Calvin » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:46 pm

It means that saying the PSP release is "another game in the million worlds" is meaningless. According to Komuta that would apply to anything done in the series. This basically reads to me as nothing more than marketing crap and could read "another game in our series where we do whatever we want." So we can't say too much about it. But to me I'd expect the most likely outcome to be that the new game has nothing to do with either the original series or Tierkreis, and there's a good chance it itself doesn't contain multiple universes.


I've been thinking along similar lines the last couple of days. Konami could simply be changing the way they market the games in this way, given that Tierkreis was the latest iteration and was relatively successful. Marketing doesn't always have much to do with the actual product as companies will say whatever they have to to get you to buy their product, so long as they aren't breaking any laws or regulations. It would make sense for the company to say things that would pique the interest of fans of Tierkreis.

The game still stands a good chance of being in the mold of Tierkreis, but I think this line of thought casts some doubt on that front. At the very least, its made me take a step back.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Sagiri » Fri Sep 23, 2011 12:49 pm

Everyone is bitching about a new Suikoden taking place in another world. Why? Aren't you happy another game is coming out? I would feel worse if Konami just gave up after Tierkreis bombed. I don't think it will be in the same vein as Tierkreis because I like to think Konami learns from their mistakes. Some of us are excited and optimistic about this, could you all please stop ruining this with your [removed by moderator] attitudes before the game even comes out?
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Feldoon
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Feldoon » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:14 pm

Sagiri wrote:Everyone is bitching about a new Suikoden taking place in another world. Why? Aren't you happy another game is coming out?

New Suikoden? Sure.
New Tierkreis? No.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby tiki » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:46 pm

Raww Le Klueze wrote:Luc says "we summon our allies through the gates of the Million Worlds." at the start of the last battle of Suikoden III.
The Fog Ship Guide says "I am one travels the Million Worlds" in Suikoden IV.

The official english translations have a problem with particles though, before you go on Youtube.


you know what, you're right

I just looked it up, they do actually reference the Million Worlds

so Tierkreis is canon to Suikoden after all

thanks for setting the record straight, Raww (:

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby JiggleBiscuits » Fri Sep 23, 2011 7:16 pm

The idea may be - but is the Million Worlds part of the overall Suikoden story from the first six games?

No. Therefore it is not canon to the proper franchise.

It is a false, fake, pretend story, and now we know why - because Osamu was too high on himself to do a proper Suikoden game.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby EstrangedIX » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:11 pm

Neither Luc's quote nor that of the Fog Ship Guide seem to be about the Infinity concept as it was put fourth in Tierkreis. Luc's makes me think of Windy at the end of SI, and the Fog Ship Guide doesn't say anything that makes me think he's talking about places other than the World of Emptiness and the like. Considering the Osamu Komuta topic I think it's obvious the Million Worlds concept was changed quite a bit for Tierkreis to accommodate his personal vision.
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby patapi » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:55 pm

The original series showed that all kinds of creatures exist in those other Worlds. Even Viki's homeland was supposed to be amongst them. It's not really a completely unbelievable stretch that there may exist civilisations not unlike that of the original world, and thus Tierkreis exploited that.

Considering the fact we know virtually nothing about Tsumugareshi but a few minutes' worth of animated images and cryptic lines, it's probably just wasting air getting worked up on off-tangent assumptions.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Flufflez » Fri Sep 23, 2011 11:08 pm

i don't care much about the canon vs. not canon discussion, but i really wish that games that don't feel like a suikoden game didn't have the suikoden name on them. there are certain things like 108 stars, unite attacks, castle upgrades, and major battles (not to mention the vast stylistic choices) that really make a game a suikoden game. some/most of these elements are too awesome to limit to one game series. for this reason, i would have no problem with konami using these to create a completely new series with the suikoden name, assuming they did it well.

if this new game feels like an awesome suikoden game but just doesn't have the same lore, i could still get on board with a new series. i will always want to see the original story developed further though.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby LanceHeart » Sat Sep 24, 2011 9:45 am

JiggleBiscuits wrote:The idea may be - but is the Million Worlds part of the overall Suikoden story from the first six games?

No. Therefore it is not canon to the proper franchise.

It is a false, fake, pretend story, and now we know why - because Osamu was too high on himself to do a proper Suikoden game.

First six games? There were nine games set in the original Suikoden world, with one of them REALLY being non-canon.

Among those eight remaining games, each and every single one mentioned something that would tie every game in the franchise, even if only in passing. Teo defending the Scarlet Moon Empire from Jowstone, Shu showing off a coin from the Island Nations in Suikoden 2, Viki teleporting Nash in front of Killey and Lorelai when they were in the Falenan Queendom in Suikogaiden Vol. 2... let alone Suikogaiden itself being a bridge between Suikoden 2 and 3.

Luc mentioning the Million Worlds in Suikoden 3 is just as thin a strand as any of the above examples of foreshadowing.
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Piisuke
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Piisuke » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:12 am

Or what about people like Jeane who appears in every game? Now there's Eresh, who's just as mysterious.

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Exophase » Sat Sep 24, 2011 1:14 pm

LanceHeart wrote:
JiggleBiscuits wrote:The idea may be - but is the Million Worlds part of the overall Suikoden story from the first six games?

No. Therefore it is not canon to the proper franchise.

It is a false, fake, pretend story, and now we know why - because Osamu was too high on himself to do a proper Suikoden game.

First six games? There were nine games set in the original Suikoden world, with one of them REALLY being non-canon.

Among those eight remaining games, each and every single one mentioned something that would tie every game in the franchise, even if only in passing. Teo defending the Scarlet Moon Empire from Jowstone, Shu showing off a coin from the Island Nations in Suikoden 2, Viki teleporting Nash in front of Killey and Lorelai when they were in the Falenan Queendom in Suikogaiden Vol. 2... let alone Suikogaiden itself being a bridge between Suikoden 2 and 3.

Luc mentioning the Million Worlds in Suikoden 3 is just as thin a strand as any of the above examples of foreshadowing.


Foreshadowing is a minor element of continuity, the opposite (how much a later work references a prior one) is much more significant. And all of the games reference the previous games heavily. Suikoden 4 is the weakest, but still mentions the Scarlet Moon Empire several times, Harmonia once, and features Leknaat, Ted, and Viki (it's still not certain if Jeanne is actually tied to the Jeannes of the other games in any way), the former two in roles that are consistent with their underlying series plot threads which are fairly significant.

Even in terms of foreshadowing you're cherry picking examples then comparing them in isolation, if you look at the collective amount of foreshadowing every game except maybe 4 has far more than just one thing. The multiverse mentioned in passing in the original games is such a common plot device in fiction that it's really hard to call that much of a unifying thread, and the rationales by the director that this bridges the series were probably made long after Tierkreis's story was made. The decision was from the start "let's make a game that's not set in the Suikoden world", not "let's take this distinctly Suikoden 'million worlds' concept and go with it."

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Rachael » Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:05 pm

Do we know for certain that the Tierkreis world isn't part of the main Suikoden world? Is there any possibility that it takes place either hundreds of years before or hundreds of years after the general era we've see in the main series? Is it possible that it takes place on another continent?

I don't think that's the case, since Marks of the Stars work a bit differently than runes, and there's no connection to the 27 True Runes, and it doesn't make sense that you'd get runic powers just from touching a book that didn't exist in that world to begin with. But I'm wondering if there are any official statements that the game takes place in another world.
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby LanceHeart » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:10 pm

Exophase wrote:Foreshadowing is a minor element of continuity, the opposite (how much a later work references a prior one) is much more significant. And all of the games reference the previous games heavily. Suikoden 4 is the weakest, but still mentions the Scarlet Moon Empire several times, Harmonia once, and features Leknaat, Ted, and Viki (it's still not certain if Jeanne is actually tied to the Jeannes of the other games in any way), the former two in roles that are consistent with their underlying series plot threads which are fairly significant.

I think the opposite is completely useless. Anyone can shoehorn connections to past games by simply mentioning names and events that take place, with absolute certainty, before or after the events of the game in question. Foreshadowing means there was a distinct planning effort prior to the current game's development.

Tierkreis inherited the Million Worlds concept and this newly announced game will expand on it. They could just as easily tie the whole multiverse together by blatantly referencing or showing the implied exile of the Sindar from the original world. In essence, we don't have enough information to distinctly segregate Tierkreis from the original series, but we will likely have more than enough of an idea once this game comes out.
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