Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

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Darkbeat
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Darkbeat » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:04 am

I'm going to put my opinion in nice tidy points then take my leave, as everything has been said here ad nauseum;

1. Konami own the IP, rights and intellectual property of Genso Suikoden. They've meddled in this in the past, such as with Suikoden III, causing Muryama to take a hissy-fit and leave. According to Tiki's flawed logic, Suikoden III must not be canon. I don't care.

2. Konami don't actually owe the fans anything, as they are a business and Suikoden has not been an especially vibrant business venture. That said, they are persisting with it seemingly out of pride in the strong reputation of the IP and a desire to appease and listen to the fans. Instead of complaining constantly on internet forums we should be trying to work with them and provide feedback, mount campaigns, get interest in the game so it's more viable for Konami to make more games etc etc

3. We have already established that Suikoden Tierkreis was not originally intended to be a Suikoden game. We don't have any solid evidence to suggest this game will be directly and solely tied to the world as presented in Tierkreis. Konami have been willing to correct mistakes/listen to feedback made with the IP in the past, even at their own expense (see: Rhapsodia), so they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

4. Suikoden Tierkreis is not a numbered installment of Genso Suikoden. Nor is this game. There's a very good reason for that. At a time when JRPGs and the PS2 was in it's golden era, Suikoden V outright bombed. Now there are several mitigating factors there, but Konami ended up hemorrhaging money over what was a masterpiece. Before committing themselves to a large scale, main line installment with sizable budget, Konami are doing the smart thing by "testing the waters" of public interest both in the IP and the JRPG genre itself with a spinoff installment in the series on a low-cost portable. This is not the Suikoden VI we wanted but it is an important step towards it.
כל העולם כולו גשר צר מאוד, והעיקר - לא לפחד כלל
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Feldoon
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Feldoon » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:18 am

Darkbeat wrote:3. We have already established that Suikoden Tierkreis was not originally intended to be a Suikoden game. We don't have any solid evidence to suggest this game will be directly and solely tied to the world as presented in Tierkreis. Konami have been willing to correct mistakes/listen to feedback made with the IP in the past, even at their own expense (see: Rhapsodia), so they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

It's not so much that the new Suikoden might take place in the Tierkreis world, more that it might not take place in the main world at all. A precedent set by Tierkreis, a game that wasn't even meant to be a Suikoden. Which is why some people are understandably vocal, after the one line in the trailer about a game taking place in the "Million World universe".

So before Konami decide to dedicate a non main world game to production, let's hope they hear our displeasure with games entirely unrelated to the primary universe.

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Darkbeat
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Darkbeat » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:26 am

The concept of a multiverse (million worlds) is as integral to Suikoden as true runes. The Tierkreis adaptation of multiverse (million worlds) had many key differences but this was due to it not intending originally to be a Suikoden.

This, presumably, was designed to be one from the start so they may actually use the concept of multiverse (million worlds) in a way which ties in more with the original.

Either which way, I agree that we want our games firmly fixed in the main world. The best way to obtain this is not to baww and/or jump on any person showing the slightest excitement on an internet forum, but to (as stated above) work with Konami.
כל העולם כולו גשר צר מאוד, והעיקר - לא לפחד כלל
All the world is a very narrow bridge, the most important thing is not to be afraid.
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tiki
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby tiki » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:29 am

Darkbeat wrote:The concept of a multiverse (million worlds) is as integral to Suikoden as true runes.


I am genuinely interested

sincerely, if you have a link to a page that describes this Million Worlds in 1-5 beyond just the World of Monsters / Wings and Scales I'd love to hear it

I can't remember any dimension referencing in the games beyond those two, which both had True Runes directly tied to them

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Darkbeat
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Darkbeat » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:51 am

Your selective quoting is insulting and annoying.

I never said the term million worlds was applicable, that's why I had it in brackets. Million worlds is a saying, meaning "many worlds" essentially. What there has always been in Suikoden is "many worlds", some of which we know about, some of which we don't. It's a multiverse. This is confirmed by the series encyclopedia.

Suikoden Tierkreis was different in many areas and indeed, it's concept of multiverse was different too, but as stated this is because it was originally unrelated to begin with.

Now if you don't mind, I'll be taking my leave of this topic. It's clear you aren't willing to budge an inch on your opinions. It's also clear you are unwilling to give this game a chance. So what's the point of continuing this back and forward?
כל העולם כולו גשר צר מאוד, והעיקר - לא לפחד כלל
All the world is a very narrow bridge, the most important thing is not to be afraid.
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Fu Su Lu
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Fu Su Lu » Fri Sep 23, 2011 4:57 am

Good news, even if it is not what were expeting it means Konami has not forgotten about Suikoden and new games may be released.

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Piisuke
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Piisuke » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:08 am

There's no point. We've all had made valid points and all he can do is quote part of everything that is typed and spew his obsession Tierkreis on it. He knows nothing about this game, which is the equivalent of what everybody else knows, yet he claims he knows more than anybody else, because of that one line, which can be interpreted various ways and can be implemented various ways.

I feel the same as Darkbeat does in his post with all his points and I have been trying to get this across as well, but some are simply just not willing to listen and I feel like I have wasted enough time already.

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Neclord X
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Neclord X » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:21 am

tiki wrote:
Darkbeat wrote:The concept of a multiverse (million worlds) is as integral to Suikoden as true runes.


I am genuinely interested

sincerely, if you have a link to a page that describes this Million Worlds in 1-5 beyond just the World of Monsters / Wings and Scales I'd love to hear it

I can't remember any dimension referencing in the games beyond those two, which both had True Runes directly tied to them


I agree with that, certainly in Suikoden since the beginning there were "lot of worlds" but that worlds wasn't more than a source of enemies. "They come from other world". I think when the original set was made they didn't think about other worlds as "parellel worlds" only as a place where demons come from.

At some point Konami probably realized that the "paralel worlds" thing was the perfect excuse to create spinoff. Without knowing, the original writer created the perfect excuse even if it wasn't his intention.

They can create as many Suikoden they want, and all them will be canon. Is the classic "multiverse" excuse we saw in so much franchises when they don't know how to put all together without contradictions.

More than canon or not I'm more concerned about the game itself. Is not that I didn't like Tierkreis, it was entertaining, but it wasn't have a single Suikoden feature, no politics, no countries with defined borders, it was an erosion to the generic rpg with "country cities", "independent villages", "evil multidimensional entity is going to destroy the world", no armies...

So with this new "Suikoden" I have the same concerns, what annoys me is that if is going to be like Tierkreis probably will have the same flaws.

Also, I can't understand why people is happy about it, "here comes a new Suikoden, even if it is an spinoff is a new step towards a new main series Suikoden title"...I think you are too much optimistic (or I am to much pessimistic) because I think each new spinoff made is one main series title that wasn't make.

At this point, after 5 years since the last Suikoden game we should have at least one more Suikoden. But we haven't, why? Because they gave us Tierkreis a couple of years ago. Now we should have another but we won't get one because we gonna get this "thing".

Sorry for the grammar, I usually avoid to write long posts because I know it becomes confusing when I try to make long sentences, but...this is somehthing I should say

tiki
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby tiki » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:28 am

I love how everyone exploded into a crybaby fest as soon as I actually bothered to seriously and sincerely ask where the Infinite/Million worlds were referenced in the actual series, as has been brought up on the forums towards me before

so I'm guessing since you pouted and took your ball and went home I am right and the only references to other worlds in the game are Monsters and Wings/Scales

alright then, thanks (:

s21
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby s21 » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:35 am

tiki wrote:I love how everyone exploded into a crybaby fest as soon as I actually bothered to seriously and sincerely ask where the Infinite/Million worlds were referenced in the actual series, as has been brought up on the forums towards me before

so I'm guessing since you pouted and took your ball and went home I am right and the only references to other worlds in the game are Monsters and Wings/Scales

alright then, thanks (:


there is a reference to the million worlds in suikoden 3

in the black and white world (before the final battle) luc said there are millions of parallel worlds and battle between dharma and chaos have been fought in these worlds

story of tierkreis might have been based on this although i still prefer to take the tierkreis world non-canon

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Raww Le Klueze
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Fri Sep 23, 2011 5:58 am

I love how everyone exploded into a crybaby fest as soon as I actually bothered to seriously and sincerely ask where the Infinite/Million worlds were referenced in the actual series

Luc says "we summon our allies through the gates of the Million Worlds." at the start of the last battle of Suikoden III.
The Fog Ship Guide says "I am one travels the Million Worlds" in Suikoden IV.

The official english translations have a problem with particles though, before you go on Youtube.
Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.

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Piisuke
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Piisuke » Fri Sep 23, 2011 6:31 am

Oh wait, but Suikoden IV isn't canon, as Murayama wasn't on board (pun intended) /sarcasm

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby LanceHeart » Fri Sep 23, 2011 8:00 am

Let's not forget how Viki lives in her own dimension with no clear indication that it's tied to a True Rune. Young Viki also appears in Suikogaiden Vol. 2 to get you home.
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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby JiggleBiscuits » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:53 am

LanceHeart wrote:Let's not forget how Viki lives in her own dimension with no clear indication that it's tied to a True Rune.


Um proof?

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Re: Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

Postby Raww Le Klueze » Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:58 am

Doctorum Non Urina Singulus.


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