Initial fan discussion (Canon or not canon?)

[KFCrispy]

tiki, obviously hotspot is referring to continuity that the series has provided. Tierkreis is the only game to take place in a different world and use different themes (runes vs Mark of the Stars) from the rest of the games.

[tiki]

I read 'Same world or not' and thought that implied she would be happy even if we got another game like Tierkreis, which had 0 ties to the original series

and since the trailer of the game references 'the infinite worlds of Suikoden', I assume that's exactly what we're going to get

dear god I hope they don't try to connect the main series to this infinite worlds tripe, otherwise that will make Tierkreis canon and mean that the heroes of Tierkreis saved the main Suikoden world at the end of Tierkreis

I think I just threw up a little

[caspiancomic]

Wow, I must have REALLY been gone a long time, my old account doesn't even exist anymore.

I just wanted to pop in ultra quick to say: this is wonderful. Personally, I think Tierkreis receives an unfair amount of hate, and while I too would prefer to see Suikoden VI on a home console, I am personally thrilled simply to see Konami hasn't abandoned the franchise just yet. When I heard that the Suikoden team had been disbanded, I quietly made peace with the fact that probably my favourite game franchise of all time had gone the way of all flesh, and tried to console myself with the fact that I still had these great games to enjoy over and over again. But knowing now that the old girl has some life in her yet, well, I'm very pleasantly surprised.

I understand the disappointment that this isn't a new instalment to the main storyline, but I don't quite understand the petulance on display. For a community of Suikoden fans, there seem to be an awful lot of people here who are turning up their noses at the audacity Konami is showing is not giving us the right Suikoden, as if they somehow owed it to us to make exactly the game we want from them. Making a full price home console title is a time consuming and expensive proposition, and the Suikoden series has in the past shown Konami diminishing returns. It seems that some people perceive these smaller, portable titles, unrelated to the main story branch, as symptomatic of some kind of laziness, or lack of creativity, or exploitation of the fanbase on Konami's part. I disagree. I think a new side story on another portable system indicates that Konami would like to see the series continued, but doesn't have the resources to justify producing a full sequel on a home console. I see the portable games as a sort of compromise- Konami I think would rather not "downsize" the series as a whole into a portable series, but just doesn't have the cash to produce a proper full sequel, so they're keeping the series on life support through these little side games. At least, this is how I see it. I really think there's no need to be worried, not anymore at least. And I certainly think there's no need to be out and out angry. We're getting a new Suikoden game! How could that not be exciting?

(Disclaimer: due to the lack of gameplay footage in the trailer my optimism, while high, is admittedly somewhat unfounded. If this turns out to be, I dunno, a Suikoden rhythm game or pet simulator or something, please disregard everything I have said and despair, for the end is nigh.)

Anyway, tl;dr, I'm excited for a new entry in my favourite game series and you can and should be too! Let's all be best friends.

[tiki]

We're getting a new Suikoden game! How could that not be exciting?

what would you say if JK Rowling passed away and someone else bought up the rights to the books and released a book called Harry Potter and the Wizards of Wonder

only it didn't actually contain Harry Potter or any of the Harry Potter cast, or any of his descendants

and it didn't didn't feature Hogwarts or even the world that Harry Potter had been built on, containing absolutely no references to Harry Potter or any of his exploits, any of the magical spells that had been shown, any of the mythology and lore revealed over the course of the books

oh it does still revolve around wizards, but they're fighting wizard battles in space on spaceships to protect the Wizarding Federation

because the new author believes "Hey, everyone fell in love with Harry Potter because it had wizards and shoot, yeah?"

I'll tell you exactly what you would say: "What the hell, this has nothing to do with Harry Potter."

just because a game is called Suikoden and features 108 characters does not make it a Suikoden game, Suikoden was developed as a rich, vibrant, complicated, ever expanding world filled with it's own history, cultures, familiar faces, sub-plots that flowed from game to game and unraveling mysteries with each new game that were first spun several games prior, exploring the 27 True Runes and in general telling a story that you could see the next chapter of every few years

each new Suikoden game is a few more strokes of a brush upon a canvas, painting in fantastic little details that make you care about the characters and what happens to them - Clive kneeling at Elza's 'grave' at the end of Suikoden 1 only to emerge in Suikoden 2 holding her at gunpoint, Sasarai's meeting Luc on the field of war in 2 and exchanging a few ominous words that don't get fully realized until Suikoden 3, the true nature of Jeane and Viki slowing coming together with a few more hints with each passing game

these are the things that make up a Suikoden game, and this is why The Infinity games have no place bearing the name of the Suikoden series, they do not add to that canvas

so yes, I can show contempt for Konami not making the right Suikoden game, because they have forgotten what makes a Suikoden game a Suikoden game, reducing it to name brand recognition to push product rather than the title of a story

there is no excitement to be had here for fans of Suikoden, unless you are the type of person who squeals with glee at the opportunity to buy a lunchbox just because it has the words 'STAR WARS' or 'MY LITTLE PONY' on the side

these games may as well be prefaced with Final Fantasy for all the relevance they have to what was created in the first 5 games, Suikogaiden and Tactics

maybe someone should tell me why they consider Tierkreis and this new Infinity game to be worthy of their excitement, really, what draws you to them as a fan of the series? I'm being fair and assuming you aren't so shallow as to shout with glee because Konami slapped the word 'Suikoden' on something irrelevant

The logo looks to have a Gateway in it. So, I'm guessing it's going to mess witht he ideas of Tierkreis some more. Which isn't so bad, but the lack of runes, the governing force of the world, is a disappointment. I've said since Tierkreis finished that all this Infinity nonsense could be cleared up if the Infinity were a True Rune that contained the "main world" while also existing within it.

linking the Infinity to the main series would kill the series completely for me, honestly it would, because it would mean the end of everything that makes the series what it is - a story of one world that advances

introduce an infinite number of worlds and that one world no longer ceases to matter, the struggles of it's characters become meaningless because there will always be something else out there, conflicts irrelevant because the entire universe and every other universe have already been saved by a ragtag team of 4 people fighting against what is basically God

that's trash

[Luke]

Hey tiki, try to see it in this way:
Today, develop a jrpg on hd console costs too much and is a too risky buisness. Suikoden is not a Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest that sell millions of pieces also just for name (I'm not saying they are bad games, I like them).
Maybe Konami doesn't want to move the main series to portable consoles (at least I hope), so the are 2 ways:
1) The empty: no any new games till an hd Suikoden is a safe investment
2) Spinoffs: Tierkreis and (maybe) this one. At least we have new good games and we know that the series is still strongly alive.
I prefer the second option

[Vextor]

My approach is to buy anything suikoden-related even if I don't like the game (I can afford it, so why not). That way, there may be a possibility that they'd go back and expand on the old plot that I like.

Because the economy is so messed up right now, especially in Japan that was hit with both the global recession and the mega-quake, it's a miracle that Konami decided to create anything with the name "Suikoden" on it. The series has never been a goldmine like Metal Gear or Winning Eleven, and the gaming division has become less and less profitable these years as Konami has shifted more of their resources into their health & fitness business as well as their casino business.

In this environment, it'd lead to the beast chance for the series to "go back" to the old plot if Konami sees the series as generating enough profit to allow taking greater risks, such as going back to the older plotline.

Although a lot of us (including me) like the old plot, it also makes it hard for Konami to get new customers-- and they do need a lot more people supporting the series for them to feel comfortable taking business risks. For now, the best strategy for them is to make a game that appeals to a wider audience, especially if they're going to a portable platform.

[Night Shadow]

i agree with luke and vextor. even sacnoth and nautilius are having trouble with creating a new shadow hearts game, even if its become such a hit. perhaps konami has decided to bring all the spin offs to portable systems since its much cheaper and easier, leaving a bit more room to decide on games that would fit the big consoles (ps3, xbox360). besides, the more fans konami racks up with their spin offs, the bigger the chance other people get to play the original, fall in love with it, and want a new one.

[Atma]

"Although a lot of us (including me) like the old plot, it also makes it hard for Konami to get new customers-- and they do need a lot more people supporting the series for them to feel comfortable taking business risks. For now, the best strategy for them is to make a game that appeals to a wider audience, especially if they're going to a portable platform."

Let me put this to you then, what makes you think that this story about gates and the infinite and "One Kings" in particular has a wider appeal than the light hearted political intrigue and runic mysticism of the old canon? If anything, it's equally as appealing to the masses. It's not like they made "Suikoden 3000" and added a bunch of buff guys with guns.

[hotspot]

I read 'Same world or not' and thought that implied she would be happy even if we got another game like Tierkreis, which had 0 ties to the original series

"She"? I'm a dude, dude. All because I have a girl as my avatar doesn't mean I'm a girl, Millie just happens to be my favorite Suikoden character so of course I have her on a suikoden forum as my avatar.

Well, first off I didn't know it was a spin off in another world until I read more information. My friend said on facebook that there was a new suikoden; so of course I was excited instantly.
But spin off in another world or not, doesn't mean that it's going to instantly be a bad story or game all together. You always have to give things a shot and if it's in a different world from tierkreis, then it will most certainly be different from tierkreis itself. As much as I'd like to see another game in the mainstream, it doesn't bother me if it's in a different world; as long as they have certain suikoden elements then it could be something exciting. I also love the range of characters suikoden has, it's very diverse and you aren't stuck with 7 characters in which you only end up liking one of them. You have many you can choose from, to find out who you like and who you don't like.
Not to mention, konami may just be making these other world suikodens to in a way feed fans, so they don't get angry that there isn't a new suikoden out yet. They may just be buying time to make a new main stream suikoden game that has the opportunity to become a great mainstream suikoden game.

But really, none of us know too much information about the game at all. Who knows what's going to happen or who's in it, for all we know it is in the mainstream games, or there could be a big connection between it and the mainstream games. There really isn't enough information to really form too much of an opinion.

I'm a bit confused though, if you have no interest in this new suikoden game at all, why are you even posting in this spot at all?

[Raww Le Klueze]

My approach is to buy anything suikoden-related even if I don't like the game (I can afford it, so why not). That way, there may be a possibility that they'd go back and expand on the old plot that I like.

I just don't see how Konami making a bigger profit on spin-offs would ever be incentive for them to go back to the main series. It stands to reason that if I buy the games I don't want then Konami will think that's actually the game I want.

That's why I didn't buy Tierkreis, and why I won't buy this if it's essentially Tierkreis 2 unless it turns out to actually be good.

The Pachi-slot makes it clear that Konami look at numbers before anything else, why else would they base it off IV? Fans didn't particulary care for it but it's the most recent game that had decent sales. Seems clear to me that Konami are either unaware or simply don't care about what the fans want and if they make more money off spin-offs that will only make more spin-offs.

[Night Shadow]

^ atma. i dont think that was vextors point. i think he simply meant that to get more people into the series, konami resorted to taking a chance by banking on a new suikoden title that was totally uncanon (as to not intimidate new players), in a console most people have (try comparing or asking people if they have a ps3 or psp. most will say psp since its a lot cheaper and its easier to bring around). konami needs fans, people to continue to buy their games. this is one way of doing that.

i mean, take my case for example. i was hesitant to play silent hill 2 (my first silent hill game) since i didnt play 1. knowing the main suikoden series, there are many direct references and things i wouldnt want to miss. same thing goes for silent hill. i still played 2 first though. =P but you get my point. =)

besides, vextor said it himself. he enjoys the old, original plot much more. i do, too. =)

^ hotspot. i agree. =) lets be a bit more positive about the whole thing. oh, and millies one of my faves too. =)

^ raww. well, square enix has gone that spin-off road before, and maybe konami wants to have a go at it. besides, remember that earlier when tierkreis was released, konami said that they do have a link to the main series. meaning to tell us fans that the suikoden universe is huge. perhaps the spin offs may even come as a way to explain some of the explainable in the main series (viki, yuber, etc.). regardless, its still so early to judge and say stuff about the game. we'll just have to wait and see.

[Calvin]

I understand the consternation, but I think Vextor said it best--the only way to have a chance at future main-series Suikoden games is to support the spin-offs Konami releases. Otherwise, they'll just abandon the series altogether. I for one am willing to do it, given that I practically grew up with this series. Call it a hope against hope.

I'm excited for this new release. Something tells me its good news that it is going back to a Sony platform. Just my gut feeling.

[tiki]

I always do enjoy watching the people who claim they will keep buying anything Konami releases in the desperate, misguided hope that maybe someday if they're a good enough fan and keep lapping up the filth Konami squats out, maybe they will be rewarded with a continuation of the story they love

here's something to chew on-

this new Suikoden sells tons of units from fans desperate to support the series that they love, even though this addition has nothing to do with the series

what will Konami more likely see from this?

A) Wow, the fans sure do love our new game, we'd better ignore that and go back to developing the old world! I know sales of the main series tanked after we released IV, but these guys have shown that they love our completely unrelated Suikoden game so much that we think we can go release VI!
B) Wow, the fans sure do love our new game! Why do we even care about the old story anymore? We can just ignore it and continue this line of games instead! That's much more convenient, since we don't have the old story writer for the old games or the team anymore.
C) Wow, the fans sure do love our new game! You know, since they're supporting our new game so much, I bet they wouldn't mind it if we merged the old line of games and this one! The old world can be just like another world in the Infinity! We could have old characters crossing over through the gates as cameos, the fans would love that sort of thing! It will be like synergy, we'll draw on the fanbase of the old games and the new Infinity games!

if you answered A, you are delusional

if you love the series, do not buy the 'spin-offs', do not reward their brand name abusing behavior

show them that you will accept nothing less than what the games were originally designed for, one world and it's stories

best case scenario, they see the fans hate the attempts to milk the franchise's name and abandon the unofficial games, to possibly go back to the original story untainted by the Infinity

worse case scenario, it dies pure

I'd be happy if the series died without merging into the Infinity

I'm a bit confused though, if you have no interest in this new suikoden game at all, why are you even posting in this spot at all?

because these new games have a very real chance of screwing up the story of the old games and that makes me very, very unhappy

and really it pisses me off a bit because they're going the lazy route by disregarding the main world and story instead of doing something actually inventive to pad out the time between Suikoden games

here's a few ideas of what they could have released instead of non-continuity Infinity crap:

Suikoden: Soulbound. An RPG that follows the life of Ted from childhood until death, showing the changing of the world around his 150+ years of life, the friends he meets and loses.

Suikoden: Howling Guns. Clive and Elza's race across the world of Suikoden playing cat and mouse with each other.

Suikoden: Sword and Shield. An RPG that allows you to choose either Han or Genkaku as your main character, following the conflict of their life.

Suikoden: Firebringer. An RPG that follows the life of the Flame Champion and his conflict.

they wouldn't even need to be 108 character games, just fleshing out interesting, battle-heavy adventure stories that were referenced in the main games, perfect for a handheld game release

do you see how lazy and uninspired these unofficial games are now

Great news, although I find it somewhat disheartening that the Negative Nancies are getting stuck in before we even know anything about the game, beyond it's title and an anime trailer.

It's good to know that Konami haven't given up on the IP. Even if it is similar to Tierkreis (and we don't know that it will be) I encourage everyone to actually support it this time round or Suikoden may be dropped for good. As long as Konami support the IP, we can have hope that we will see Harmonia some day.

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v

The line "another story in the many/infinite/parallel/100 worlds of Suikoden" in 0:23 of the trailer...means they're making what they did with Tierkreis canon.

[Darkbeat]

Great news, although I find it somewhat disheartening that the Negative Nancies are getting stuck in before we even know anything about the game, beyond it's title and an anime trailer.

It's good to know that Konami haven't given up on the IP. Even if it is similar to Tierkreis (and we don't know that it will be) I encourage everyone to actually support it this time round or Suikoden may be dropped for good. As long as Konami support the IP, we can have hope that we will see Harmonia some day.

[Nikisaur]

NEW SUIKODEN!!! I'm so excited!!!

I never gave up on another Suikoden and I'm glad I didn't! I'm looking forward to learning more about this game in the coming months. I already have a PSP, and I actually kinda prefer it to the DS, so I'm pretty please about that. And I wouldn't need to buy another handheld, phew.