Teaser Trailer

A forum for questions and discussions about the PSP game roughly translated as "The Woven Web of a Century"
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Darkbeat
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Darkbeat » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:04 am

You're confused, understandably, by the standard Judeo-christian definition of God.

What the True Runes represent more are "gods", they essentially control and plot the course of the entire events of Suikoverse. They maintain the balance/control of the world and bestow their users with demi-god like status. They also lead the Suikoverse towards a destiny, a path which Luc tried in vain to avoid. They are sentient, immortal and far beyond the scope of human (and most races in the games) perception and levels of understanding, therefore they are as gods in the eyes of the people.

Obviously the One King is somewhat different, but the point remains. Especially the plotline of Suikoden III (breaking free of a pre-determined destiny by attempting to remove that which imposes it) is very much the same.

Though what do we know? We aren't real Suikoden fans after all :roll:
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Piisuke
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Piisuke » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:08 am

I just hope the song in the teaser is in the game.

tiki
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby tiki » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:48 am

Darkbeat wrote:What the True Runes represent more are "gods", they essentially control and plot the course of the entire events of Suikoverse. They maintain the balance/control of the world and bestow their users with demi-god like status. They also lead the Suikoverse towards a destiny, a path which Luc tried in vain to avoid.


no, they're more like sentient macguffins each with their own motivation than they are Gods, simply because some people worship them does not make them Gods

powerful people and things seem like Gods to the weak

the Aztecs believed the Spanish to be Gods but clearly they aren't

Though what do we know? We aren't real Suikoden fans after all :roll:


only if you accept Tierkreis as having anything to do with the Suikoden canon / want to fight God and save the universe like that guy a few pages back did

I'm pretty easy in my standards, people can enjoy Tierkreis on it's own merits (terrible as they may be) but the second anyone starts trying to imply that the endless stream of stupidity showcased in Tierkreis has anything to do with Suikoden's actual world is when their opinions as a fan of Suikoden's actual story are immediately discarded

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Rooks
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Rooks » Thu Sep 22, 2011 6:53 am

Hmm. Tiki, I do understand what you are saying about the "Million Worlds" or "infinite Worlds," but arguing about it being canon is pointless, as no can believe something they don't want to, and everyone believes the things they want to. I am far more interested in the true origins of the idea of their being "million worlds."

In Genso Suikoden I-V itself, I can't recall where it is mentioned. However, there might be a mention of it in the original Water Margin novel. At the time Water Margin was written, the Chinese were obviously already a very learned culture. But they did not have the advantage of the Arabic Number system, nor of Algebraic notation or advanced tools of scientific quantification. As a result, they used metaphor to stand in for what would later be scientific notation and method.

For example, Feng Shui now gets relegated to interior design, but in medieval China it was used as a judge for all sorts of things like Irrigation Engineering, Tide Calculation, Soil Stability, etc. Feng Shui itself isn't just superstition, but some scientific facts derived from trial and error then explained by metaphor rather than scientific notation.

The Chinese originally had no word for "infinite." Oddly, the Japanese did, "Mugen." So, the Chinese often used the term "Ten Thousand" to metaphorically refer to the which was innumerable or infinite. Unfortunately, the great works of Chinese Literature are not a part of the western canon of university study. (There is that word, "canon" actually used properly for once.) As a result, I am sorely lacking in knowledge of the original "Water Margin," but it likely to have some reference to the innumerable "Ten Thousand." If there is a reference to "Ten Thousand" worlds or even "Ten Thousand" stars, then the idea of the "million worlds" of Tierkreis might actually be what you call "canon" not only in Genso Suikoden but in Water Margin itself. In Japanese, the "Ten Thousand" often gets translated into "mugen," infinite or without limit, but not always.

Anyway, I want to ask someone who has read Water Margin is they remember a reference to the "Ten Thousand" in the novel, or the "Infinite / Innumberable / Million" Worlds.
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Darkbeat
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Darkbeat » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:03 am

tiki wrote:no, they're more like sentient macguffins each with their own motivation than they are Gods, simply because some people worship them does not make them Gods

powerful people and things seem like Gods to the weak

the Aztecs believed the Spanish to be Gods but clearly they aren't


Bingo. They are gods in the eyes of the people.

In the eyes of the player, maybe not. That however is actually quite irrelevant.


only if you accept Tierkreis as having anything to do with the Suikoden canon / want to fight God and save the universe like that guy a few pages back did

I'm pretty easy in my standards, people can enjoy Tierkreis on it's own merits (terrible as they may be) but the second anyone starts trying to imply that the endless stream of stupidity showcased in Tierkreis has anything to do with Suikoden's actual world is when their opinions as a fan of Suikoden's actual story are immediately discarded


You can choose-your-own-canon till the cows come home. Don't tell others they can't do the same.

Tierkreis is a spin-off and I consider it such, but if others want to have the theory that it can be tied to the mainline universe then so be it. There's no evidence either which way as the anime trailer really tells us nothing.
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Piisuke
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Piisuke » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:40 am

Rooks, the opening of SIII used the words: "Transcending Time"

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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby EstrangedIX » Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:26 am

Isn't "Transcending Time" what it says right before you see Chris and then says "Eternal Life" before showing Geddoe? I take both to be references to True Runes.

I don't remember any mention of a multiverse concept in the numbered games (I-IV at least, haven't played through V yet). Other dimensions such as the World of Wings & Scales have been, but they are connected to the Suikoden world via Runes, not separate universes in and of themselves.

I guess you could say that Luc was talking about it with the vision, but that was in the context of probabilities. He wanted to change the probability of the world being controlled by Runes. I don't see how that could be what he actually saw though. He saw a world with no connection to the elemental powers of Runes at all. He saw Tierkreis :lol:

As per topic, the trailer looks ok. The art reminds me of stuff like Naruto, like anime TV series art instead of anime movie art like the into to III. That guy didn't really look like Flik to me, but that chick looks like younger Sana.
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby DoReMi_Vampire » Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:48 pm

Rooks wrote: Anyway, I want to ask someone who has read Water Margin is they remember a reference to the "Ten Thousand" in the novel, or the "Infinite / Innumberable / Million" Worlds.

I've been watching one of the older Water Margin tv-series made in Japan. So far I haven't heard any mention of the 10.000 worlds. Though there were many other random aneqdotes of wisdom such as "The man who sleeps in the tiger's den will not dream long" etc.
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Rachael
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Rachael » Fri Sep 23, 2011 2:23 am

Unlike in English, in Japanese, "10,000" is used as frequently as--if not more so than--100, 1,000, 1,000,000. In Japanese, also, "10,000" is often used to mean some indeterminably large number, or perhaps infinite.

In the trailer, what I translated as "million" is literally "100 10,000s"--"hyaku (100) man (10,000)"--which is, of course, the same as 1,000,000. But I didn't make the connection between "a million worlds" and "the Infinity" until someone brought that up.

And yes, Piisuke, I recognized "Transcending Time" and thought of III, as well. This gives me a little hope.

But I'd rather assume what, to me, would be the worst-case scenario: a prequel to Tierkreis with fewer than 108 recruitable characters.
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Xelinis
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Xelinis » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:52 pm

There's little doubt in my mind that this is not part of the core Suikoden world we all know and love. However, there is one thing I noticed:

Midway through the trailer, there is a woman in the foreground of a burning village, one who bears an interesting resemblance to Leknaat. Again, I don't think this really is related to the core series, but it is interesting regardless.

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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Evyleon » Sun Oct 09, 2011 7:25 pm

tiki wrote:
villains that exist only to be evil and to want to destroy everything for no apparent reason without any real motivation


Well you just dismissed Suikoden II as a "stupid RPG". Luca Blight wanted to unleash the Beast Rune for what...? To destroy everything? Yuber? He's pretty crazy, too. He seems to jump in conflicts for bloodshed. Does that mean that perhaps this is a stupid RPG? You're biting your own tongue.

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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby Antimatzist » Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:51 am

Luca had his motivations, and yeah he was crazy, but he was not the ultimate antagonist of the game, and neither was Yuber.

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EstrangedIX
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby EstrangedIX » Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:10 am

Also, given what Yuber said to Riou about hating Runes, I'd say he has his own motivations as well. I don't remember the quote, and I think there was a translation debate, but it clearly showed that his motivation ran deeper than simple chaos and bloodshed.

Even Graham Cray had his own motivations, and he was probably the least developed of the main antagonists in the numbered series games. He wanted to have the Rune to feel connected with his dead son.
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primierra
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby primierra » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:40 am

Piisuke wrote:I just hope the song in the teaser is in the game.


I hope so too, the song is pleasant to hear, although I'm a little disappointed about "the million word" which means it may return to Tierkreis but I still expect a little bit about the mysteries that remains unanswered in Suikoden I - V before. The sindar, the world of emptiness etc I really want to know more.
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Re: Teaser Trailer

Postby gilgamesh31 » Mon Oct 10, 2011 10:59 am

Yeah maybe the new game will feature the Sindar and their true rune of change.

Say the Sindar ran out of places to run to in the Suikoworld and discovered a way into one of the million worlds where they found their 'eternal city' and they send the Fog Ship into the Suikoworld to collect the other true runes for more power or something. You would play as the bearer of the Change Rune and maybe the story could span 100 years because True Rune bearers could easily live that long. Hikusaak or one of his minions would have to travel to this new world if he wanted every True Rune maybe thats where he has been all this time.

This could be a way to connect the old stories (SI-SV) without having to worry about their new story for the new game making such a mess on the suikoworld itself, but would something in the vein of this idea be good enough for the old fans if they tied it in as a side story like that or would we rather a Tierkreis II?
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