Playing a Suikoden table top RPG. Looking for input on world

[bookwormbabe29]

Hi all!

I'm new here, so I apologize if I'm in the wrong section. As the topic says, I am making a suikoden table top RPG game, and I've a few questions I'd like to run by the board experts, see what people think.

(Warning, this is long)


Geography:

1. In every map I've seen of the suikoden world, Harmonia is the northern most country, but it's top is just cut off, with no real end. Does anyone know what is north of Harmonia, if anything?

2. I think all of us would want to know more about Harmonia, so I'm going to try to set my game there. That means trying to come up with towns, cities, forests, mountains, etc, for most/all of Harmonia. No big, right? My question is, what do people think of Harmonia being like? I would think with it being the the Northernmost country (again, at least from every map I've seen) that it's climate would have to be cool, possibly even frigid in the the northern reaches. There would have to be plenty of natural resources for them to fund so many wars and be such a large nation, so I'm thinking lots of farms, forests, and mountains, for example, basically being self sufficient. Harmonia doesn't seem to trade much, at though I'm sure there is some trading going on (any suggestions?). That's just my idea. Any others?


History:
1. Any idea what the **** happened to Hikusaak? My own theory is that the rune is it's stagnation phase, and Hikusaak is akin to a vegetable, immortal but simply existing in a bed somewhere not able to do anything. With the rune stagnating, the empire is starting to crumble with many revolutions and loses in war. I *think* that's why they are desperate to clone Hikusaak, to have a 'new' version take the Circle rune and hopefully bring order back to the empire. That's the theory I'm thinking of running with, at least. Any other suggestions?

2. EDIT: Forgot to ask this one before. Thank goodness for edits, eh? Knowing the history as we do, who do you think could make cameo's or would appear in Harmonia? My tentative ideas involve Viki, Jeane, and Yuber/Pesmerga (obviously) but also people like Geddoe's team, Clive, Sasari, or Nash. I'm looking for other ideas, such as possibly Lilly as she was supposed to study in Harmonia for a while, for example. Any other suggestions?





Runes: Probably the most asked question, what are the 27 true runes, and what do they represent? If I'm not mistake, what we know is this:

1. Beast Rune: Controls Animalistic rage and passion
2. Blue Moon Rune: Controls Compassion and Destruction. Creates vampires.
3. Circle Rune: Controls Order and stagnation
4. Dragon Rune: Allows dragons to exist, and can control dragons.
4. Eightfold Rune: Power is unknown. Rumored to control demons and/or chaos.
5.Gate Rune: Split into two parts. Front Gate and Back Gate Rune. Connects worlds and teleportation.
6. Night Rune: Controls the powers of the night, allow creatures of the night to exist. Rests in the Star Dragon Sword.
7. Rune of Change: Affects change in the universe.
8. Sovereign Rune: Represents absolute rule. Gives immunity to all other runes. Last seen embedded in the Dragon King Sword.
9. Sun Rune: Represents the power of the sun.
10. Soul Eater: Represents Life and Death.
11. Rune of the beginning: Splits into two parts: Black Sword Rune, and Bright Shield Rune.
12. Rune of Punishment: Represents the order of atonement and forgiveness.
13. True Earth – Controls the power of the earth.
14. True Fire – Controls the power of the Fire.
15. True Lightning – Controls the power of the Lightning.
16. True Water – Controls the power of the Water.
17. True Wind – Controls the power of the Wind.

1. Is that right? Is there an official list of what ideas/forces the runes might also represent? I mean, I've heard the fire supposedly is warmth and destruction, but I don't know if that is canon or not. Anyone know?

2. Is the eightfold rune confirmed as a whole rune? Before coming online to research it more, I thought Yuber and Pesmerga each had a 'half' a true rune (like the gate rune) or a split true rune (like the rune of beginning). Was I just wrong in that thinking?

3. What don't we know. There are nine runes left, right? So here are my ideas.


19. Unity Rune: This governs the power to break and make unities. I see this as a rune that could govern friendship and betrayal, presiding over things like the Friendship Rune and the (hacked) Solitude Rune. Maybe even things like the Knight Rune to protect friends. As another possibly, this rune could be the one that allows for unite attacks. Going out a limb, I also have imaged there could be a rune based off of this one that allows for a user having more than three runes, able to 'unite' runes into one body for insane powers; sort of how like Crowley states the "100 runes within my body" this could be a way he could do without having a true rune, but having a rare rune from the Unity Rune.


20. Demon Rune: This and the next rune (below) I see as 'existence' runes. If Dragons and vampires need a rune to exist, why not monsters, demons, etc? For forces, I think it would be something like temptation and temperance.


21. Humanity Rune: Like the Dragon Rune and Demon rune, this allows humans to exist in this world. For forces, I was thinking it might have power over Dreams, and govern over Hope and Despair.

22. Piety Rune: This is one my favorite ideas that I used in a fan fiction a longtime ago. Not so much a 'religion' rune, but a rune governing faith in something, anything. Nicknamed "the Miracle rune" with this rune, your wishes do come true. It's forces could be Faith and Rituals.

Going out on a limb theory: This is my own theory, so bear with me. IF (this is a big IF mind you) creatures like vampires and dragons need runes to exist, then shouldn't all races need one? And IF so and humans have a rune to exist, why not an elf rune, a dwarf rune, a kobold rune ,etc, etc? My long shot theory is this: the world of suikoden was once much like our own, without elves or kobolds or anything, but with the myths/legends belief that they existed, like we have in the real world. Someone with the Piety rune was a dreamer who wished hard enough to create such races, springing them into existence with no knowledge of being created in this manner. That makes the Piety Rune the 'existence' rune for such races.

Taking it even further: There is no Human rune, and Humans were created in this manner too from a Sindar person who wanted these races to exist.

It's out there, I know, but this was my idea for a rune

Moving on


23. Time Rune: Pretty self explanatory really. It's the last cliched RPG element without a rune, so it is likely one of the remaining nine. It's powers would be to control time, and its forces could be Slow Patience and Quick Actions.


24. Mind Rune: Another popular idea I've seen on these boards, something opposite the Best Rune. It's power could govern scientific thought, alchemy, strategy, inventions, etc. It could also control what the mind perceives, having power of illusions as well. It's forces could be Logic and Naivety (Ignorance?)


25. Rune of the end: The opposition of the rune of the beginning, this rune symbols the end. It's powers would be tied to destruction somehow. I always thought Yuber and Pesmerga might be tied to this, but if Yuber's rune is called the eightfold rune I guess I was wrong. Anyway, this rune's forces could Decay and Destruction.


26. Nature Rune: A plant rune. This rune could govern plants, and it's forces could be growth and birth.


27. Domination Rune: A true rune equivalent of Windy's Black Rune, this rune has power over militaristic expansion/wars, mind control, subversion, and plain old domination. It's forces could be control and freedom.


That's the ideas I have at the moment, and all my questions. If anyone feels like helping me out, feel free to post here or give me a PM sometime. I'd love to hear other theories and try to hammer out a working version of Suikoden for my players.


Thanks for your time!

Vicky

[Oppenheimer]

This is a fan project so it is in the wrong section. I'll move it.

[Xelinis]

My only suggestion is this: Murayama once said that he envisioned Harmonia to be like Russia. Start there.

[bookwormbabe29]

Yes, I remember that, which is partly why I think the northern part would be frigid, you know? Still, "like Russia" leaves a LOT up to interpretation and gives me a lot of details to pencil in. I'm going to be working on this for a while, but I do like to hear other people's ideas while I'm working on it.

[Antimatzist]

I always think Harmonia would look like "medieval" Germany, only with mor Scandinavian-looking people in it. Als I guess the north of it would be really cold but we don't know, maybe the Suikoden-world is not spherical, but flat - it is a fantasy world after all.

Your idea of Hikusaak somehow sounds a lot like the Emperor from Warhammer 40k^^
Well, cameos depend on the timeframe you want to cover.

Yuber has a real True Rune and yeah it is called the Eightfold Rune.


I am really interested in this so I will ask you some questions, if it is ok. What kind of rules will you use? Will you use pre-existing rules or use your own or..? Will you also include large-army battles like Warmaster or WHFB? (I think this could really work with Suikoden mechanics :-O).
Somehow, I would really like t play this game or see it being developed.

[bookwormbabe29]

Ah true, I forgot to mention my time frame. Silly me! I am going for a little after Suikoden 3 / the second fire bringer war. My bad for not mentioning that earlier. In theory, most anyone from the games (excluding 4) could be alive or be there, but I don't want to just throw character X there because I want them there, you know? Another character i found reading the tablet of destiny here is that Wakaba and L. Chan Chan supposedly went 'north' in their ending of suikoden 2, so I might use them as there is some precedent for them to be there. You know what I mean?

My idea is like the emperor of warhammer, eh? I've done a lot of gaming, but I've never done warhammer. Interesting to know.


For the 'how' of this game, my partner and I are working two different approaches. On one hand, I'm working on converting an older system called MERP to work with Suikoden, and see how that goes while he is working on building it from the ground up. We are making rapid gains, building off or each other and what not, as we sort of have a race to see who can make a balanced game first. We occasionally run into problems, like with spells. Most gaming systems allow for a lot of different spells of say, flying, invisibility, and more. Do we add runes for such spells into our game, or just stick to the element spells we've seen in the games? Stuff like that.

And yes, I do plan on large army battles. I have a few ideas on this, but I'm holding off on committing anything until I know what kind of characters my players will pick. Since they will likely not be the main hero or strategist, I'm thinking of A) giving them control of one unit, and seeing how that works, or B) having the party be the messengers giving out orders, so they could change official orders and directly be in control of the entire battle. It's a work in progress


Our tentative plan is to have a system up and running by November, so we'll see how it goes, eh?

[Flufflez]

http://images.ngamexp.com/6/0000006093.jpg

i've been told before that this map is accurate. it is a redrawing of a map that was including with s5 collector's edition in japan maybe? something like that, i don't know for sure.

there is a lot of area that we don't know much about, but i think that you can make some educated guesses based on the geography and history we already know. first off, we've seen 19/27 true runes in the land shown, so there probably isn't a whole lot more land left in the suikoden world. this is based on the deduction that something as powerful and important to life as the true runes would be relatively evenly distributed throughout the world. as far as i know we see no significant climate changes from game to game, and there is only one sun. it is possible that the sun is huge and/or the known world is very close to the equator, but i think you can safely say that harmonia doesn't necessarily experience harsh, snowy winters like in russia. any similarities would most likely be size, politics, or cultural (like clothing and food).

[EstrangedIX]

Hallec wearing a polar bear head indicates a winter climate in his northern homeland. We haven't seen enough of Harmonia to know what it's actually like, but I'd say tundra is more likely in the north than palm trees.

This game sounds really interesting, btw.

ETA: you might consider Canada for a geographical reference given it's size and diversity. I've always thought of Harmonia as being like a communist Canada with nazi politics (although I've hard that about Canada itself from a Canadian or two lol). That class system could mean labor camps for things like mining, etc. Also, I've read different opinions here on just how powerful Harmonia really is. Their might could be more political than military since they rely on mercenaries for border defense. I also think Harmonia is pompous as hell for calling the region beyond their southern border a frontier. The grasslands might be underdeveloped by urban standards, but most other areas to Harmonia's south certainly aren't. To me this illustrates that Harmonia thinks all things not Harmonian are of a lesser nature to be looked down upon to a point.

Hope this helps.

[Antimatzist]

My idea is like the emperor of warhammer, eh? I've done a lot of gaming, but I've never done warhammer. Interesting to know.

basically, the emperor is also more dead than alive and embedded into a giant golden throne and his empire is more or less crumbling.

btt: Yeah, I know what you mean with the characters - I cannot help you at the moment but I guess the best thing is, like you did, to look into the game ending credits or something like this.

@big army battles: maybe you could make it more skirmish-like. I think e.g. there are some Warhammer Fantasy skirmish rules for small games, maybe this will do for you.
Or you could really give them just one unit and the game master controls the others, this could also lead to interesting situations like the master/tactician doesn't tell his soldiers all of his tricks and so on.

[Belle]

http://images.ngamexp.com/6/0000006093.jpg

i've been told before that this map is accurate. it is a redrawing of a map that was including with s5 collector's edition in japan maybe? something like that, i don't know for sure.

Hmmm... is it just me, or are the locations of Tigermouth and Drakemouth switched?

But that is a very well detailed map. It's kind of nice to scroll over one section and recall a piece of Suikoden history.

[DoReMi_Vampire]

I've also thought about if there exists a rune that allows humanity and other races to exists just like the Dragon Rune and I'd like to give some of my theories about it.

The Dragon Rune allows dragons to exist in the main suikoworld, but dragons can still exist in their own native world without the rune. So in theory, races that are natives to the main suikoworld shouldn't need a rune to be allowed existence there. Maybe there could exist an equivalent to a Humanity Rune in the World of Wings and Scales that allows humans to exist there instead?
For simplicitys sake I'd consider the more humaniod races to be the natives of the main suikoworld: Humans, elves, dwarfs, wingers and mermaids.

Kobolds and animals could possibly be assigned to the Beast Rune.

The Demon Rune is a plausible True Rune. But since the Gate Rune and Eightfold Rune already can summon these demons there is really no need for a Demon Rune IMO.

[Xelinis]

I've also thought about if there exists a rune that allows humanity and other races to exists just like the Dragon Rune and I'd like to give some of my theories about it.

Yes, but the Dragon Rune may represent more than just that. While it's all theoretical, I recommend you take a look at this editorial on the matter: http://www.suikosource.com/editorials/a ... eories.php

[DoReMi_Vampire]

@Xelinis
I don't want to completely derail this thread so I'll make this my last comment on my Dragon Rune theories.

The theories presented in Demon Eye's editorial was as much based on opinion as my own. To be fair it was an interesting read and I like when people make a serious effort in developing the Suiko-mythology.

According to Demon Eye all dragons in the Suiko-world will die if the rune's bearer dies. This I completely disagree with. It's the rune, not the bearer, that allows dragons to exist. If the rune itself was destroyed then I would buy that theory, since that would cause the magic that allows dragons to exist to vanish. Maybe you could add the rule to your table-top RPG that if you gather four or five True Runes - like Luc did in SIII - you can destroy another True Rune. (At the risk of disrupting the scales of order and chaos of course).

Demon Eye also says that the Dragon Rune represents responsibility, it connects it's lord (bearer) to it's citizens (dragons). I like this part.
A few more personal suggestions for rules in your game: If the Dragon Rune has no bearer then dragons will have no lord and will therefor go berserk and kill anything in sight. Once it does find a bearer dragons will find their lord in the suiko-world and calm down. If the bearer is a human, only humans can become dragon knights. If the bearer is a kobold, only kobolds can become dragon knights etc. (Maybe that's why we've only seen human dragon knights in the games so far. Hm, I sit on a mountain and ponder.)

[Xelinis]

According to Demon Eye all dragons in the Suiko-world will die if the rune's bearer dies. This I completely disagree with.

Confirmed by Konami.