Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOILERS

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Chifuku_Star

Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOILERS

Postby Chifuku_Star » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:17 am

First off, I'm not sure if this is meant to be posted in this forum, but it seemed like the most logical place to me.

I find it interesting that some of the characters knew about the changes to the world before even touching the False Chronicles. Hina knew that some islands had disappeared; Maybelle, despite her general fantasizing, knew that part of the mountains had vanished; Tsauburn through logic figured out that the Magedom must have existed since there were documents that stated that there was a powerful nation fighting against the Order along with Sieg's Company. Those are the three that I can remember off the top of my head, I'm not sure if there are more.

I wonder what this tells us about the nature of the False Chronicles and the changes to the world. How can intellect overpower the seemingly magical memory changes that occur to the general populace? Could that mean that everyone remembers that the world has changed, but there's a subconscious defense mechanism that protects people from recognizing the trauma of the reality?

The False Chronicles seem to be comparable to True Runes in some way (or at least that's what I'd like) given that they unveil memories and hold great powers, but if the Chronicles' anagnorisis is equal to having a high intellect, doesn't that make it far less powerful than the Runes?

I'm just putting ideas out there and thought it was an interesting topic to discuss.

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oryx
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Re: Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOI

Postby oryx » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:06 am

I often think about this as well!! (This is going to be a bit off topic, but it's related)
For example, I wonder if any of the (dis)appearances could affect climates or economies in any way... The disappearance of part of the Cho'luoi mountains could have easily created a warmer climate around Tehah Village or Pharamond, which could have caused confusion for farmers or working-class people used to colder weather. OR if a person made their living doing a particular thing (like fishing in a lake near their home), what would happen to them once this hypothetical lake vanished? Would they automatically assume a different occupation? Would they automatically have as much skill in this new profession as they had in the old one? Or would they simply be bewildered as to why they're living in such a place to begin with? It's all very confusing to think about. x_x

And then there's people like Misrach - he was part of the Salsabil Liberation Force, but once the Magedom disappeared I wonder what happened... Obviously his memory was altered to believe that he had always been a part of a different group, but were there moments of confusion where he thought, "what are we fighting for again?" Idk. I feel like, when people have something they're heavily invested in, it becomes more & more difficult to sway their memories. Like with Nhazu and his firm belief that Dogha was more than a "crazy old hermit." And on the topic of Salsabil... During the Magedom's "alliance" with Salsabil, the Viceroy clearly did not have a ton of power. I'm sure a lot of his decisions as ruler were "persuaded" by the Mage King, and Salsabil was probably heavily reliant on trade with the Magedom and Magedom-made goods. So again I wonder what happened once the Magedom vanished?? Was Salsabil suddenly in the midst of an "inexplicable" financial crisis?
Lol these are the things I think about late at night.....

Anywho getting back on topic. I'm pretty new to Suikoden as a whole so I can't really talk about the differences between Chronicles and Runes, but... Not every Starbearer realized the differences in the world before touching the Chronicle. In fact, most of them didn't, and some didn't even believe it /after/ touching the Chronicle. When you consider this, then the "intellect" theory doesn't really hold up... I mean, why choose Chein as a Starbearer if she's going to write it all off as a dream? You could say that the Starbearers are all predetermined but not only does that go against the main themes of the game but it just flat out doesn't make any sense. Mubal only became a Starbearer after Manaril was successfully rescued from the Academy. Thus, as mentioned above, I think perhaps the Starbearers are chosen based on some kind of emotional factor, whether it's towards a place or a person or something else. Chein had an emotional attachment to the Roar and to the Marsinah Plains as a whole. Dogha had his attachment to the mountains and to Nhazu. etc. etc. etc.

... So in this case the Chronicles may be even less powerful than you had originally proposed. Hahaha

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Re: Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOI

Postby Antimatzist » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:24 am

I think this whole "let's change the world's appearance with false chronicles and nobody realizes" wasn't well thought. I mean ok, if there was a forest or not might not be so important. But why are the people of Tehah still wearing warm clothes if the climate has changed to a warmer one? Iirc one of the townspeople even wonders about this. So the False Chronicles don't have the power to change the past - but why aren't there then more documents with the old regions and stuff?

And then there are people who have a feeling that something is wrong, but why? There is also one man in Salsabil after the Magedom vanishes and he had a fiancee in El-Qaral. When yout alk to him he says something like "No, I am single... oh.. but why am I crying?", so he somehow remembers that something is wrong.

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Re: Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOI

Postby Ellyos » Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:02 am

Well, first of all, I think it's important to state that the game is for kids.
So i'm not surprised by illogism found it game about : climatic condition, financial and economic situation, some flaws on the memories topic, or any philosophical questions (the grey line about good/evil or about trusting in fate).

I just think that targeted players won't wonder if or why.

Lets take an example.
How many people wonder why Rarohenga is named Rarohenga ?
I mean, Diadora chose herself this name for the area. Then everybody on the world call it like that (Rumor about Rarohenga monster, client for quests). But, if memories have been reworked, shouldn't the area have already its own name ? Diadora was damn lucky to find the same one then.

Anyway, let's come back on the main topic.
I think nobody lost their memories and everybody can get back them... if they want to. And that's the point.
People don't try to remember. And they don't try because they don't think to try (they don't know their memories have been modified and they don't trust it).
Moreover, they don't even wonder why they are doing things. They just find it "normal" to do it.

I came to this conclusion mainly by Chein's or Nofret's behaviour. Chein is wandering endlessly in plains and she doesn't even think to come back to her place because, her place having disappeared, she doesn't even think about its existence. The same goes for Nofret. She and her subordinates don't have a place to go and they haven't realised that but, when Seig (the Hero) ask them if they have a place to come back, Nofret realises something is wrong, without Chronicles.

So as long as people don't wonder why, they can't get back their memories.

Sure, if you start to think about it, it has a lot of flaws.
Socially, you can't live an entire life without referring to your past when you talk to other peoples. So, sooner or later, everybody should start to think something is wrong.
Active people could have more difficulties because they're busy and live in present (but they are probably the ones with the more social connections). On the other hand, thinkers and scholars should point out something is wrong fastly enough.

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Re: Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOI

Postby oryx » Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:33 pm

@Antimatzist
Hmm I guess I should pay more attention to the NPCs, since they seem to be supporting my weird ideas!
I agree that the whole thing was handled poorly... As far as an emotionally-driven plot point goes it does hold some weight but it's just not explained clearly enough. And I also wonder about the whole "documented proof" issue - doesn't anyone other than Tsaubern have access to that kind of written information?? No one else has any books or documents (or maps even, what a novel idea) that depict the vanished places? It's a little silly tbh. :/

@Ellyos
I guess you're right - it's not really meant to be examined in depth like this. But it's impossible to resist! ;p
The idea of the memories being suppressed instead of removed does make a lot more sense, even if it's still unclear how such a thing could occur en masse... But I wonder, in that case, why even bother with the "forgetting"? It would have been a lot more powerful if, once a world or an area vanished, to have it erased completely from history, like it had never existed at all. (All written word disappears, all connections to vanished people are *completely* forgotten, etc. etc.) That way the Starbearers' ability to remember due to the Chronicles would have seemed a lot more important. If only~

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Re: Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOI

Postby Ellyos » Wed Dec 21, 2011 6:39 pm

oryx wrote:It would have been a lot more powerful if, once a world or an area vanished, to have it erased completely from history, like it had never existed at all.

I guess it's to reinforce the cruelty of merging worlds events.
Seeing this man in Salsabil crying for his forgotten wife is sad and cruel. Same goes for Nhazu who is feeling than Dogha is a good man but seeing than all other Tehah citizen despise him.

Hotupa, when allies meet Shams after the destruction of Janam, raises hard to answer problematics : Should we reveal the truth to Shams and his grandparents or not ? Hotupa's advice is "What you don't know doesn't hurt you." It's maybe true in this case if memories would have been completely erased and modified.
But since we have this feeling than old memories are suppressed and still linger in subconscious, it's probably more cruel to let people in this unsteady state.

By the way, it's pretty weird to see that Seig decides to reveal the truth to Shams, but not the grandparents... Oh well, he doesn't care about them, he doesn't need them as star bearers...

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Re: Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOI

Postby patapi » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:34 pm

Imagine the fun to be had if the world fusion phenomenon involved the Old World as well; then perhaps more players would have greater attachment. Like, most of the Holy Kingdom of Harmonia getting wiped out of the world map in an instant, etc.

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Re: Intelligence and The False Chronicles' Anagnorisis (SPOI

Postby Ellyos » Thu Dec 22, 2011 5:52 am

Well, with all those flaws, I think it was a good idea to not imply the Original World in this game :P

Moreover, Suikoden World and its 27 True Runes losing against the One King would be excessively surprising.
In the opposite case, since all erased worlds are shared between all multiverse worlds, it could have been a way to explain some races in Suikoden World : Kobolds, Elves, Dwarves...

But Tierkreis plot is not enough well made and solid for that.

Playing with memories was a risky task anyway. The game must be took really lightly because, with a synopsis like that, it's obvious it appears many faults.


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