Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

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Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Porom » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:37 am

I don't know what I was expecting when I beat the game.. but it wasn't what I saw. I guess with the recent Suikoden games I was getting pampered with the developers bothering to put the slightest bit of effort into this game by providing a New Game+ feature, but no, instead it was just 'End' and a flash back to the game's starting screen. With the ability to load my last game from inside the tower, in a town that the game won't let me leave, with shops that don't carry anything worthwhile to equip my characters with, with nothing else to do but go up and kill the boss again if I feel the urge.

Also, at the end of 1 you were left feeling pity for Mathaiu and Barbossa with a sense of victory. At the end of 2, it seemed like something had actually been accomplished in the game's world. 3 left you with a dislike of the three characters you had been controlling throughout the game and sympathizing with Luc. In this one.. a bunch of teenagers save their universe and an infinite number of universes. There was no real emotional investment in the game or any of it's characters, just.. a sense of 'Oh. Well, what to play next?'.

Am I missing something from this game or was there something redeeming in it's plot or characters, and how is anyone expected to care about a continuation of the game's world in the inevitable sequel after they blew their 'Teenage hero saves everything, ever' on the first game? You can't possibly outdo that.

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby patapi » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:51 am

Guess it's just as bad in English. I did feel severely underwhelmed by the ending and TOK after completing the game, so I'm glad (or sad) that there are others who share the same opinion. Shaky beginning up to the Citro defense, awesome middle, then they dumped this unsatisfying ending on us. TOK is almost as bad as that what-is-that Giant Tree in IV, and too bad he doesn't have a Rhapsodia to save him.

Wasn't really expecting New Game+. But it would have been nice since it has been a staple since IV.

What evidences are there that made you think they are planning an "inevitable" sequel for this? Perhaps it's time to return to the original world... for good.

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Porom » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:07 am

I say 'inevitable' out of sarcastic bitterness, I don't actually know or hope there will be. But since the story kept making allusions to other parts of the world you couldn't access, so many characters had unexplained secrets and Atrie's story was never really expanded upon, I think we can expect them to keep resources diverted from the main game line development to knock out a sequel for this if it sells even moderately well.

I really, really hope they drop this new world and focus solely on the main series. :( If we're lucky they'll put out a 2D game like the original two games on DS.

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Oppenheimer » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:13 am

This topic is heavily on plot and shouldn't be in the gameplay section. . . moving.

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Falenan_descent » Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:28 pm

What evidences are there that made you think they are planning an "inevitable" sequel for this? Perhaps it's time to return to the original world... for good.


I actually just threw up a post on that, Patapi. There's a few references to a possible sequel in the list of what the stars did after the war in the end. Check it out!

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby patapi » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:07 pm

Porom wrote:But since the story kept making allusions to other parts of the world you couldn't access

Must admit that I liked the potential of what they could do with the North Star Empire, but I think we already have enough of unknowns in the original world to start thinking too much about them. Lonomakua and Ritterschild weren't particularly important in comparison. (Guess getting allies from off-map nations is one of the things defining a Suikoden title...)

Plus, now that the Chronicles are resolved, I wonder what else they would do with Tierkreis' world. Compare this to how we still have plenty of True Runes to deal with~

so many characters had unexplained secrets

What else is new? They've just managed to create a couple of dozens of Pesmergas in the game, and we know to well what happened to that character type.

and Atrie's story was never really expanded upon

He's just a fellow Tenkai Star, no? Like the other Marica? Doubt they were planning for more than that, or at least I hope so.

More than a direct sequel to Tierkreis, I'd like to see hints of this spin-off showing up in Suikoden VI, which rightfully should take place in the main world. Minus the world fusing, the Order of the One True Way felt like a poor's man attempt at emulating the Holy Kingdom of Harmonia anyway. What's with them gathering the Chronicles/Runes for some higher purpose, establishing and propagating absolute Order, a theocracy with great military might that subjugates smaller nations with surprising ease, etc. Unlike the Order however, Harmonia has a much more complex history, and the social structure is far more established than a mere cult.

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Avalionis » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:14 pm

Yeah, I would've loved to have a New Game+ option...where all my equipment and trading ventures gets carried over, but C'est la vie.

The ending wasn't overly bad...but it could've been a bit better really.

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Belcoot4 » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:35 pm

All in all I thought it was a pretty great game. I agree that a New Game+ is definitly needed. It would promote the replay value and also since the enemies don't drop any money getting alot of those rare items is a pain and for second and third playthrough those things should be carried over. Besides S3, Tierkreis gave me the ending I kind of expected in a bad way though. S3 seemed to be the only one out of the series where I was actually satisfied with the ending. I'm not sure how I would have done it any different but it could have been better. Also as mentioned above they alluded to the other worlds too much and the fact that you couldnt freely travel to them really gave them no backbone. Still though I didn't think this was a bad game and I definitly wouldn't say I was underwhelmed because I played it 3 more times after I beat it once, but I also wouldn't say overwhelmed like SII,SIII or SV where you have dreams about the game and rushing home from work to play it. Soley rating Suikoden games I'd give it a C+ or B-
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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby SuikoRune » Wed May 13, 2009 1:08 am

I just finished the game, and while I didn't have all 108 stars, I have no drive to play this game a second time...probably ever, and that's hard to say because I have the entire series, and it's my favorite RPG series. The game felt like it was incredibly rushed when compared to other games of the series. Yes we're talking about a DS game (on a little cart) but I was also playing Valkyrie Profile on the DS prior to this, and that blows this out of the water....that's very hard for me to say. I love both series but...this just isn't up to par to what the series is...

spoilers...

The main character's voice acting is very rushed. To the point that it feels like the developers told the voice actor to speak quickly, so that the audio dialog file took up less space on the cart, so that it would all fit. All the voice acting for the rest of the cast is great! This doesn't make any sense!

The story is convoluted at best...

The main villain (One True King.....really? Why not just call him "God" and get it over with!) is the Tenkai Star (hero star), but he's supposed to be the embodiment of chaos because of there being infinite possibilities in all the universes? He wants to combine all the universes into one, so that he will rule by making people relive 1 day of their lives over and over for all eternity? That makes no sense! This is just one aspect of a horribly written antagonist. The other half of that aspect is Valfred...a man who is trying to "unite" people in his world by teaching them the ways of the Order (One True King....GOD!!), and if people do not agree with him, he takes over their towns and converts them against their will. If they resist, he destroys them by using parts of the worlds that the One True King is destroying (how holy of him). This whole concept of the One True King, and the Order, and Valfred's obsession, all remind me of the real world's organized religion, which I found to have a very peculiar place in this series. It felt like some Japanese writer at Konami had a message to deliver to the rest of the world about organized religion. It didn't feel like something that fit into a video game. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

The main character has a one-liner that's AS ANNOYING as the early seasons of Naruto's "Believe it!" that got spammed so hard in the english dubs. Every time he said "You never know until we try!" all I could hear was Naruto. It's screwed up because prior to the game, I had felt that finally having a voice for the main character (and some dialog) would be great for the series. Never again!

No duels...no military skirmishes....no overworld to traverse (you have points on a map! lazy!)...you can't explore cities (locations on a menu! lazy!)....enemies don't drop money.....shops in this game are a JOKE....you're forced to use the trade system to gain a decent amount of money, even then that takes an eternity to be able to afford items (300k+?) which is only useful for equipping side-characters with items for when you have to use them...why even have weapon shops? Where is the weapon upgrade system that's been prevalent in the series? "Chronicles" instead of the rune system?? You don't even need to have but a handful of characters in this game for game play purposes simply because just about every character in the game has a spell list that's identical to several other characters. So the only reason why there are 108 characters is because of the brand name, and the theology that goes behind the series.

I started out playing this game and going "I might like this." Throughout the middle I thought "this is pretty cool" and then as the story headed towards the end, I went more towards a very disappointed "Really!?" I wish I could get into this game....I really do...but to me this compares to Suikoden Tactics and I know how people here view that game in the series.

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Magic Fanatic » Wed May 13, 2009 2:16 am

Very underwhelmed,

I came for the title Suikoden. & I stayed because, I wanted to see the ending, and tbh, boring!!!! Just more... talking? As if the Hero didn't annoy me enough.

I play Suikoden, and commit myself to finish it because I'd always enjoy their endings, but you know, playing and commiting to this game, wasn't really worth my time, it didn't seem like a Suikoden ending,nor did it seem like an ending to me at all.

I wished they had put their effort into this one.
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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Futch » Fri May 22, 2009 9:13 pm

@Suikorune: I agree that there were many parallels between the order and Christianity. I was reminded of "His Dark Materials," another story in which someone with no understanding of the actual principles of Christianity tried to vilianize the entire religion because they didn't like it. I'm not trying to start a religious debate here, what I'm saying is that I felt like that part of the story (a big part) was an ignorant person's agenda of trying to shove their beliefs down our throat by hitting us over the head with a misguided metaphor. I did not enjoy being preached to. Suikoden for me has always been an escape from reality, a break from all the stupid political drama and everything else that's wrong with the world. It saddened me to see this series used to deliver a disguised political/religious/who cares message. That is not what the series is about. I thought "genso" meant "fantasy," not "NPR."

Other than that, I mostly enjoyed the game. I really liked the weapon system, actually better than the upgrade system. The Marks of the Stars were fun and I enjoyed using something other than rune magic, but I must say that I enjoy rune magic more. Besides, too much of the main series revolves around the True Runes, and that's what made finding and using different runes, rather unique or mass-produced, so rewarding. The Marks of the Stars was like "here's twelve powers, pick four."

I really didn't like that, other than the final boss, there was no boss fight that was more than a little harder than normal random battles. I enjoyed the random battles, as they offered a challenge, if only because they were piled up at you. But the incredibly easy boss fights felt like an attempt to bring over ten-year-old runescape fans over to the series. Suikoden really needs to be rated "T," I think, if it is to maintain the rewarding and involved feel it has always had. I really hope that they don't keep trying to target children. Besides, I was nine when I first played Suikoden 2, and I enjoyed thoroughly. They don't need to water it down to draw all kinds of fans. Really, I would rather Suikoden remain a niche series than sell out and try to win over Hot Topic frequenters. The way the characters talked like they lived somewhere in Connecticut was cute and somewhat amusing, but it really took a way from the depth of the game.

Did anyone else feel like the game switched producers halfway-through? The beginning was really good, and it seemed to be promising to be more of the political drama (the good kind of political drama, not the petty kind that was referenced before) that the other games were. It started out looking as if we were going to establish an army to overthrow a tyrannical, powerful country while at the same time having to deal with other countries trying to use us for their own agenda. The Magedom of Janam had a rich political story to it. A cold but effective ruler was doing his best to set his subordanites against each other to compete both for their own improvement and for his own entertainment. Meanwhile his son is biding his time and trying to stay above the mess until he can take command and set things right, all the while thinking of his younger sister, who is being used as a pawn for science. Enter our hero, someone the prince can confide in and trust while he tends to his own complicated affairs. Then we have Chrodechild and her overtaken country. She is being used as a pawn along with our hero and countless others by the nation we thought to be the good guys. Among these are a number of smaller tribes facing the possibility of invasion and possible enslavement. Towering over it all is a huge superpower trying to take over the world, under the guise of trying to improve it. Finally we have our company, the neutral voice and rallying point against the superpower, the biggest hope for independence. It was all building up to be an emotional and epic power struggle to take down a tyrant. And then...

*Woosh* Bye bye magedom. All of a sudden the politics are gone, no more war between nations, no more gray areas between expansion and terrorism, liberation and tyranny. Suddenly it's a cosmic struggle between good and evil, between humans and gods, a battle for the very right to exist. It was cool in it's own way, but it's been done so many times, and with a war like that there's only one outcome: Good guys win, simple as that. Happily ever after. No sacrifice, not bittersweet end, no winning but still somehow feeling like you lost something inside you. Not to belittle Dirk's sacrifice, but it was predictable and barely dwelled upon. Our hero had a solid day of "putting on a brave face" before it was back to saving the world because nothing else mattered to him. Ironically, even though the hero had a voice and a personality, I found him much more two-dimensional than previous Tenkais. He was your basic hero. Upbeat, optimistic, got really upset when ever injust things happen. But beyond stopping the order he had no motivation. No inner conflict that defines a good hero. He was the cut and dry good guy, no darker side, no moments of desperation. I almost think that the fact that previous Tenkais couldn't talk gave them their depth, because it allowed us to not only give him a name, but give him his entire personality. When someone he loved died, when he one a battle, when he lost a friend; how we felt was how he felt. Other than his facial expression and a limited choice of dialogue options, we were given no insight into how he felt about it, and so our imagination took over, and he felt exactly how we felt about it. It's for this reason that, in previous games, I always named the hero after myself, but this time I gave him a fictional name. He wasn't me, he was his own character, entertaining but shallow. He had one driving motivation and that was it.

All of this led to a rather underwhelming end. I don't know what I was expecting. Perhaps for the One King to take out a city before he died, or maybe someone had to die to kill him. But after he was defeated in battle there was no final act of desperation, no haunting remarks to make the hero second-guess himself. He pretty much said "thanks for freeing me, I was a slave, kthanxbye," *poof.* The world is saved. Everyone go about there merry way, hurrah hurray. In Suikoden 1, the at the end of it all Tir was left without a father and his best friend and feeling out of place in the country he saved. In 2, after the war Riou and Jowey, their friendship hanging by a thread, shed the pretext and and put the past behind them in what, to me, was the single most touching moment in Suikoden History. They went on to live a quite life with Nanami, having grown and changed after a desperate struggle against each other, now free to live a normal life, which was all the sweeter because of how hard the worked to achieve it. In 3, while it did boil down to "Save the Universe" rather than "Free our Country," we had three deep characters, none of which were the same after the battle, all of whom felt pity for the one they were forced to slay, and we were given an insight into the man behind the villain, his motivation, his feelings, his humanity. In 4 we had Lazlo, who could never see the world the same way after his struggle. He nearly died to save the world, and his reward was to live forever as a True Rune Bearer in order to keep it from passing on to someone else. He bore the Rune of Punishment, which of all the runes took the biggest tole on its bearers, save perhaps the Sun Rune. In 5 the Prince lost his mother and father to politics and power struggles, he was betrayed by his aunt, and while he freed his country, he lost his family, save his sister and his bodyguard. All too young the were stripped of their parents, for Ferrid was as much a father to Lyon as to his own children. They now have nothing but each other and a few close friends, orphans in a country that they barely new what to do with. I never finished Tactics, but Kyril lost his father, and they had to live with the fact that they dismantled a country to save the world from rune cannons, as Kuuluk was never quite able to recover.

In Teirkries, the hero is exactly the same as when he started, and while he lost his mentor, he's barely affected by it, and he goes on to live a happy life among friends without a care in the world. Good for him, but what about us? Where's the satisfaction? In previous games, because the heroes grew, we grew, but in Teirkries, after I was finished, all I had to show for it was fifty hours of good music, fun gameplay, and slight desire to watch an independent film to wash of the cheese of the game. I learned nothing, I didn't shed a single tear, and I feel no lingering attachment.

To sum up, Teirkries was fun, I'm glad I played, but it was not nearly as satisfying as previous installments. I sincerely hope they drop this spin off series and focus on making the main games as amazing as ever.
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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby XIII » Sat May 23, 2009 12:56 am

Sorry for the wall of text >.<

SuikoRune wrote:-The main character's voice acting is very rushed. To the point that it feels like the developers told the voice actor to speak quickly, so that the audio dialog file took up less space on the cart, so that it would all fit.
-The main villain is the Tenkai Star (hero star), but he's supposed to be the embodiment of chaos because of there being infinite possibilities in all the universes? He wants to combine all the universes into one, so that he will rule by making people relive 1 day of their lives over and over for all eternity?
-The other half of that aspect is Valfred...a man who is trying to "unite" people in his world by teaching them the ways of the Order (One True King....GOD!!), and if people do not agree with him, he takes over their towns and converts them against their will. If they resist, he destroys them by using parts of the worlds that the One True King is destroying (how holy of him)
-No duels...no military skirmishes....no overworld to traverse...you can't explore cities....enemies don't drop money.....shops in this game are a JOKE....
-you're forced to use the trade system to gain a decent amount of money, even then that takes an eternity to be able to afford items (300k+?) which is only useful for equipping side-characters with items for when you have to use them...why even have weapon shops? Where is the weapon upgrade system that's been prevalent in the series?
-"Chronicles" instead of the rune system?? You don't even need to have but a handful of characters in this game for game play purposes simply because just about every character in the game has a spell list that's identical to several other characters.
-So the only reason why there are 108 characters is because of the brand name, and the theology that goes behind the series.


1) I agree, to me though it sounds like he spoke normally and the voice was just sped up to save some cartridge space
2) I believe the Tenkai that becomes TOK is corrupt like that because the stars represent different paths/destiny of the world and since they all merged into one star, it creates one future.
3) From the looks of it (and my understanding) Valfred did what he thought was best, he got tired of seeing his close ones die and so he tried to create one world where everyone gets to live a "perfect" life every time so they don't suffer. It could be his obsession to summon the One King that lead him to destroy the towns that rebel because he doesn't want his plan to get ruined. Either they're with him or against him. There's some background to him if you pay really close attention, it's just poorly executed.
4) It's a spin off, did the card stories, tactics or gaidens have duels, army battles, or explorable cities? They're trying to get others to like the game too, not just for the main fans.
5) That's why there's quests as well, plus trading shouldn't take too long once you know where things sell high and where things are bought low. My close friend was able to get the max value just by trading when the first 3 main cities are there. Trading isn't for everyone (I hate it too) but they gave you other ways to earn money, sell your old equipment or do quests (even the repeatable ones)
6) It's in a different universe, you can't expect every universe to have the same way to use magic. The Chronicles increases their abilities and what they could do (once again the way I see it) and that's why most of the magic are the same for everyone (could explain why the blades know falcon, etc)
7) Well they are trying to attract other people to get into the series. Made it friendlier to those who would love to try it out. If you just started playing the series and Tierkries changed to something more close to the Suikoden series (referencing other wars, characters and maybe other true runes, add viki and jeane, and maybe let you travel to other lands previously explored) Would you really try to play the game after you get that big mumbo jumbo?

Sure the game is not close to what we all know and love but if you just remember that it is a spin off, pay close attention to what happen, just try your best to enjoy it and not compare it to the rest of the series, then you'll find an enjoyable game with a decent plot in this adventure. If this was Suikoden VI, I'd completely understand why you're disappointed with the game lol

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Futch » Sat May 23, 2009 1:01 am

XIII wrote:If this was Suikoden VI, I'd completely understand why you're disappointed with the game lol


Haha. Good point. It IS just a spin-off. But I believe the time could have been better spent on working on VI, although I appreciate Konami's attempt to tide us over. I did enjoy the game.

Also, I apologize for the length of my above post. But please, someone read it and say something about it. It took a long time to write and I'd be sad if no one read it. :(
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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby XIII » Sat May 23, 2009 1:31 am

They possibly might have made another team do this spin off while the main team does VI I'm not sure but it's still a possibility xD (Then again I never did read the credits.... XD)

I do agree with some of your points Futch,
Didn't Suikoden bring some political drama as well hidden under all the runes and fantasy settings that it had? lol just wondering haha

I wasn't too surprised with the Magedom being destroyed (trailers and I looked at that stupid digital art book before playing the game xP) Although I did feel a bit of the old Suikoden to the game when they introduced the Magedom, a Kingdom that seems friendly and there to help you (possibly be your army as well) but then you find out all the flaws and corruption hidden deep down. I liked it, but as all things corrupt in a game like this, they're gonna be gone one way or another.

Boss fights were kinda easy and then they slap you in the face with the One King and the stupid laser (spam that thing and you're dead xD) Just felt very dumbed down to let the new players get into it.

I agree with you that seeing the good vs evil storyline was kinda been there, done that event. The thing with the main series is that when you get to the final boss, you are fighting for your country/army/nation's freedom/right to live(?). Fighting a crazed Barbarossa to end all the problems and corruption in Toran's royal court. Fighting the rest of the Highland Army to finish off what's left of the invaders. Fighting Luc and his army to save the world itself from the destruction of True Wind. Fighting Kooluk to end another invasion. Fighting the Godwin's to save Falena. All of those battles had a hidden agenda beneath them (1-Windy searching for Soul Eater, 2-Mostly Luca going crazy and hell bent on destruction, 3-Well, Luc wants to destroy his rune lol.. 4-Cray wants the Rune of Punishment for selfish reasons 5-Barrows and Godwin had their own plans for how Falena should be run)
By the end of it Tierkreis was just there. Suikoden 3 did a wonderful job with the "good vs evil" story by having everyone fight the hell out of each other, showing struggle when they do decide to team up and still show that everyone had some bad blood. Anyways I'm getting out of my point lol

The main for Tierkreis did bug me for the fact that he didn't show much emotions, he remained that little over happy, optimistic son of a gun after finding out that Cougar and Dirk died, I would've expected him to be a bit more serious instead of the same character throughout the story. I mean Hugo and Chris had some changes in him by the end of 3 why can't the Tierkreis hero?
For the One King I'm guessing that the Tenkai himself had no control over himself since all stars merged into one, just glad that he was free from that curse.

Then again you stated most of the flaws that I saw as well haha
If we hadn't compared Tierkreis to the main series then I have a good feeling we'd be somewhat satisfied with the story and the way things ended up. Well maybe not for the ending lol...

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Re: Beat the game. Anyone else underwhelmed?

Postby Futch » Sat May 23, 2009 3:23 am

Thank you for your respons, XIII.

It's true, the game can not hold up when placed next to the original story, but on it's own it was enjoyable. It was fun to play and I LOVED the music, as well as the supporting cast. Yes, the ending was quite the let down. I really enjoyed the scene between the hero and Atrie (If you ask me, Atrie would have been a better Tenkai to play as, he at least had depth), but I was like, "Really? I get all 108 freakin' SoDs, nearly have a heart attack when I couldn't get Namna to join until the. very. last. minute., and THAT's my extra ending?" Imagine if you hadn't gotten the best ending. I'm pretty sure you'd freeze like a scratched disc, waiting for something else to happen. I expected AT LEAST 10 minutes of 2d animated cutscenes, though I know that's a lot to fit on the disc.

Hmm. This seems to be a thread for what we DIDN'T like about the game. All valid and satisfying points, but I wonder if it wouldn't be beneficial to have a thread about what we DID like. Perhaps tomorrow I'll make one.

Oh, it is good to be back on these forums.
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