[Guide] Sword of Magic info

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KFCrispy
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[Guide] Sword of Magic info

Postby KFCrispy » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:01 pm

Magic Sword aka Sword of Magic, specifically Rage Sword Rune, Thunder Sword Rune, Cyclone Sword Rune, etc, is a feature in Suikoden III and V that isn't popular due to the amount of simpler, passive runes that boost physical damage. in order to use Magic Sword effectively in the games, you have to waste a turn casting the spell, so in many cases where a battle could last 1-3 turns when a team is loaded with lots of passive runes that boost physical damage, wasting 1 entire turn to initiate the Magic Sword state is very inefficient and would prolong the battle.

Changes from Suikoden III
1. In Suikoden III, it was possible for characters to attack on the same turn they cast Magic Sword, but there is no chance for that happening in this game; you must always use a turn to cast the buff.
2. In Suikoden III, the only way to increase damage from the Magic Sword state is to learn and use the Sword of Magic skill. In this game, both skills and the elemental affinity can boost the Magic Sword's damage multiplier.
3. In this game there are 2 versions of the Magic Sword spell: a level 1 (named like "Sword of Cyclone") and level 3 spell (named like "True Cyclone"); the Level 3 provides a higher physical damage multiplier, so you will always want to cast the level 3 spell.
4. in this game, magic sword does affect command attacks and counter/"thrust-back" damage just like boost/double-edge (while in Suikoden III it did not). i'm assuming it helps in unites too (not fully tested).


AllGoodNamesTaken wrote:Soooo, I just did some numbercrnching with the spreadsheet, and I think I've worked it out...

Basically, the sword spells add a multiplier (1.1 and 1.2 for the first and third level spells), then SoM and it's epic counterparts add another multiplier. In the case of two SoM skills, it adds a multiplier for each skill (2 total). It looks like the multipliers are as follows:

Level - Normal / Epic
E - 1.05(*) / 1.02
D - 1.08 / 1.05
C - 1.12 / 1.08
B - 1.15 / 1.10
A - 1.18 / 1.12
S - 1.20 / 1.15
SS - 1.30 / 1.20

It also includes a multiplier for the elemental affinity corresponding to the spell. I've used the following values for these...

Affinity Level - Multiplier
E - 0
D - 0.5
C - 1
B - 1.1
A - 1.2
S - 1.5

...which I got from the results with no skills. This gives a final calculation of:

Damage = Base * Spell * Affinity * Skill (* Skill 2)

For example, Kyle with both Sword of Magic and Zen Sword equipped and at SS would do 1 * 1.2 * 1.5 * 1.3 * 1.2 for about 280% (2.808) of his normal damage



Royal Paradise, Sacred Oath, and even Zen Sword improve the effect of the magic sword. thus the description for Zen Sword in the game is inaccurate.

other things to note
1. if you cast the lvl 1 then the lvl 3, it will do the lvl 3 effect/damage. if you cast another lvl 1, it will revert back to lvl 1 effect/dmg... don't waste your time switching in 1 battle!
2. Having an E affinity in the element your Magic Sword is using will result in dealing 0 damage!
Last edited by KFCrispy on Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:10 am, edited 6 times in total.

SuikoMJM
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Postby SuikoMJM » Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:01 am

I'm guessing you have to throw away a first round attack to set up the Sword Skill? Nonetheless, great damage! Things to consider; Are red Ulses weak to the water element? If not, how about finding a mob who is and seeing how it affectes that multiplier. What of enemies with resistences? You may already know, but you can throw Taylor (Analyze) in your entourage and he'll reveal an enemy's HP as well as their elemental strengths and weaknesses. Lelei only reveals the enemy's HP, if my memory serve me right. Could be wrong.

The Prince doesn't have a half bad affinity for the skill himself. I'll have to surround him with people who are proficient with the skill and have a go at it sometime. Could make for an interesting playthrough. When I get to it, if there are things that still need clarification, I'll help look for them. I'm a little busy at the moment though.

KFCrispy
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Postby KFCrispy » Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:38 pm

i came up with and tested the idea that the caster's affinity affects the damage because i was using different people. at first, Kyle had lightning and Roy had water. i didn't notice Kyle was B in Lgt, Roy C in water. i thought Ulses were weak against Lightning in general, taking 10% more dmg. i then gave Kyle the Rage sword, and he's a C in that (which i didn't notice yet).. he did the same extra damage percentage as Roy. then i switched up runes.. Wind and Water were doing crazy damage for Kyle and figured out the affinities from there. i'm not sure about elemental weaknesses, but i've been able to get consistent results for different characters with different affinities. i'd like to get more numbers for ppl with A/S/SS sword of magic with A and S affinities soon.

when you have an E affinity with magic sword's element and cast the Sword of Magic spell, you hit for 0!

the Ulses only have "So" in white on their head--weak vs Sound? or strong vs sound?

i'm seeing nice damage due to affinities and no m.sword skill equipped. just boost your affinity to S and you're good to go. the magic sword skill isn't even that necessary! right now i am testing numbers with no skill whatsoever. S-affinity produces 80% extra damage with the lvl 3 spell. the lvl 1 spell is around 65%

KFCrispy
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Postby KFCrispy » Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:56 pm

it seems different enemies yield different results for the Sword of Magic damage. i cannot understand why right now, but the majority of enemies took damage in the manner listed below. Others, such as Millioneyes and Raging Assassins, seemed more resistant to it (maybe higher magic defense??), and yet others such as Hellsteed took greater damage from the same Magic Sword configuration.

also it seems Sacred Oath skill level = Magic Sword skill level - 2, so an S Sacred Oath will affect the Sword of Magic the same way a B Magic Sword would, with E and D levels of Sacred Oath having little to no effect.

Zen Sword seems to have a worse effect than Sacred Oath for the Magic Sword, but i don't get why Kyle can have it add 50% extra damage when it's SS.. maybe the increase in effect at the highest levels (S, SS) are very high.

KoRnholio
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Postby KoRnholio » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:27 pm

Hellsteed has considerably higher MDEF (350) than either the Raging Assassins (290) or Millioneyes (180). Or Billioneyes for that matter (250).

Hellsteed might have a bad 'Slash' affinity. That should be viewable with Taylor (you can see that skeletons are weak against Punch with him), and it might affect the magic sword effect as well.

KFCrispy
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Postby KFCrispy » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:18 pm

hmm well that would make sense using my theory that the sword of magic effect only affects the damage dealt (after enemy defense is applied). perhaps there could be other elemental affinities not shown by Analyze because they are not very strong or very weak against the elements--just in between..?

KoRnholio
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Postby KoRnholio » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:59 am

Actually, in further testing, it seems that Taylor's Analyze either only shows elemental strengths, or just has a chance of working, because some enemy with complete resistance to fire (and Rage Sword) didn't indicate it. Not sure for which reason it was. I'm inclined to think the latter, because most skeletons show a 'Pu', which indicates Punch. Some are bow wielding and the others are sword wielding, and skeletons are known to be weak against fists throughout all the Suikodens.

KFCrispy
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Postby KFCrispy » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:51 pm

huh, i've seen ones with weaknesses. i think the tiger thing in Twilight Forest area is weak vs Fire or something, that's how i got damage that's 2x the regular sword of magic damage.

Korn, do you have the exact defense of the Red and Gray Ulses in Lordlake's Withered Forest? I'm getting 17 for Red, 92 for Gray.

my scratchwork for the Sword of Magic stuff can be found here: (removed, no more need for it!)
Last edited by KFCrispy on Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KFCrispy
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Postby KFCrispy » Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:06 pm

so if you look at the Excel file, it gives a better breakdown of how the Epic skill grades affect Magic Sword. also, it seems (though not truly tested) the effects add up.. so let's say you have SoM skill and Zen Sword equipped, then in most situations the extra damage from each of these skills is calculated independent of one another (they do not combine levels so it turns into Sword of Magic = SSSS or anything.. going from S to SS in the skills have significantly higher damage bonuses so they are not the same as going from E to D, C to B..). however, based on my numbers, Kyle should have been dealing 270% extra damage on the Ulses with SS SoM, SS ZenS and S-element, but he was clearly doing up to 280% extra damage.


also, i have been taking the highest damage values i have been observing and not an average. if i find the true maximum damage values at each level, it is more accurate.

you can basically ignore Sheet 1 in the document. Sheet 2 has far more values..

highwind44029
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Postby highwind44029 » Wed Nov 01, 2006 8:00 am

Man, this is all sorts of interesting. Kyle's really the only good candidate for Sword of Magic though. Rahal's another decent choice, but both are strong with Water, so Kyle pretty much trumps him. Too bad my console's not working. I would love to play with Magic Sword more too.

KFCrispy
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Postby KFCrispy » Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:52 am

the Prince is the second best choice with it, actually.. Rahal doesn't have any epic skills that further boost Magic Sword. (DIZZAPPOINTED :x )
Rahal can get S in the skill, but that will only let him deal an extra ~115% damage, and it wastes a turn.. while Crazed will do +100% from the start. for Kyle, it's definitely worth it since he gets +180%, something no other setup can provide.

i'm working on finding the maximum boosts that the best candidates can get from using the skills for Magic Sword.. i'll be adding it to the 3rd page in that excel file.

after the Prince, Lyon, Miakis, and Josephine may be decent.

oddly enough, Killey is the only L-range character that has the Magic Sword skill. and he can't equip the rune still (no L-range character can use the Magic Sword runes)... i'm thinking they changed his design to become LR. imagine if Killey had the same stats and was M-range.. he would have been even more top-tier in physical damage with the ability to multi-hit.
Last edited by KFCrispy on Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KoRnholio
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Postby KoRnholio » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:02 pm

Er, yeah, I have their DEFs. I'll get them when I get home (they're in the official guide). I keep seeing your post but then forgetting to tell you.

On Killey: Maybe thats why they changed him, so he wouldn't be an attacking monster. But then again, with Richard, Georg, Cathari, etc, they didn't seem to care much about nerfing most people in this installment.

EDIT:
Gray = 100
Red = 25

Its possible that the guide numbers are just approximations, monsters may very well follow the same levelling system that characters do, with a slight random factor.

KFCrispy
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Postby KFCrispy » Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:08 pm

hm, i got 92 and 17 as their minimum defense. there could be a maximum random variation amount in the damage formula.. 8 points. so maybe the basic damage formula always has a 16 point range.....

Killey would have had light weapons like Yahr and Shigure (who have 4 attacks max), the speed of Shigure, attack power like Gavaya (just under Galleon), and a critical factor very close to Georg/Hazuki. Gavaya is the only character i listed with 3 free rune slots (and 1 free skill slot as well), but Gavaya's strong because he has poor accuracy, evade, critical rate... you know. Killey also has Galleon's MDF and skill like Hazuki/Belcoot (parry/counter machines) to cover his only 2 low stats--HP and EVA. and of course he has magic like Kyle.
basically, characters with 1 or 2 really high stats are handicapped with only 1 free rune slot or something. Killey as a M-range would have been completely unhandicapped even with the fixed Treasure Hunt skill. making him L-range only allows for 1 hit/target, unable to parry (thus he can get hit often by physical attacks due to his poor EVA), and unable to use his "god-given" magic sword skillz!! :x

updated excel sheet

JWink123

rune?

Postby JWink123 » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:39 am

I've been lookin at this thread, and I didn't know a Magic Sword Rune existed previously. And on rune threads here and walkthroughs on Gamefaqs I've found nothing on where to find said rune. So, anyone kind enough to clue me in? :D

SuikoMJM
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Postby SuikoMJM » Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:58 am

You can buy them from the Dwarf Camp Rune Shop in the Baska Mines. At least, that's the one place I know for sure. Could maybe get them elsewhere.


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