[Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

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KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby KFCrispy » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:12 pm

unfortunately this formula is not perfect, but i'm not sure how much more progress i can make. i am seeing more consistent 35% boosts in STR for standing on your positive terrain. also, at low STR/ATK levels, even though the STR/DEF ratio was over 1.6 (42 ATK.. 13 STR vs 8 DEF/PDF), I was seeing a multiplier of only 1 instead of the expected 1.3, so that part ain't perfect either--for that same character standing on his positive terrain, I was getting a good prediction when I used a 35% STR boost and also bumped the STR/DEF multiplier from 1 to 1.2. So maybe the rule is slightly different..

Wolkendrache
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:14 pm

2 hypotheses:

- The golem arm damage is based on the target’s PDF.
Trishtan without body armor (lvl 39, PDF 65, DEF 82), standing on his terrain, got diagonally hit for 160 damage, then hit from the front for 151 damage. The golem had AT 278.
Wendel (lvl 39, PDF 40, DEF 106), standing on her terrain, got front-diagonally hit for 225 damage, then from the back for 292 damage. The golem had AT 282. (Direction matters, even though the animation suggest that you got hit from the top)

- There is a damage factor that slightly randomizes damage.
Trishtan caught a golem in the corner (Trishtan on his terrain, golem on ist opposite), the golem did a normal attack from the front for 108 damage. Trishtan laid a bead on an irrelevant spot to gain exp and level up. The golem attacked him again under completely identical conditions for 112 damage. Without a randomizing factor, the second attack should have done either the same or less damage.
This also explains why the damage prediction sometimes fails in both directions. Sometimes it predicts a kill, but the enemy survives; sometimes it predicts the enemy will survive, but it is killed. There is no other factor that explains why 2 identical attacks under the same conditions do different damage.

Another question: do certain negative status effects have an influence on damage (like the sleep status in S2)?
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby KFCrispy » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:27 am

random variance is natural for games like this. also, you can see the damage predicted by the game is usually different from the actual damage delivered.

not sure about status effects, but we have PDF+ and ATK+ statuses at least... i believe there is Rust that drops ATK.

Wolkendrache
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby Wolkendrache » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:13 pm

I’ve done a series of tests, so here are some additions, differences etc. to the OP…

Physical damage formula
(((Str + PDf/2 + Str_bonus_equipment + Weapon_Atk - (Enemy_PDf + Enemy_armor_bonus)) x Ratio_mod x Direction_bonus x Battle_Lust_bonus x Command_Rune_multiplier) + Mag x Terrain_mod + MDf/2 x Terrain_mod) x Terrain_mod
Str: Strength stat. To check it, you must unequip all Str-boosting runes and equipment. In the status screen, the Str stat must be written in regular black script. If it's written in blue, there are modifiers active. This applies to all stats.
PDf/2: Warrior Rune effect, only if Warrior Rune is attached. Halves PDf and adds that amount to Str (the smaller integer is used for odd numbers). Keep in mind that once you attach the rune, the Str stat will immediately be modified in the status screen (written in blue).
Str_bonus_equipment: Added up Str bonus from equipment. Keep in mind that once you equip Str-boosting stuff, the Str stat will immediately be modified in the status screen (written in blue).
Weapon_Atk: Weapon attack strength
-> Str + PDf/2 + Atk_bonus_equipment + Weapon_Atk: Atk stat
Enemy_PDf: Target’s PDf stat
Enemy_armor_bonus: Target’s defense bonus from equipment
-> Enemy_PDf + Enemy_armor_bonus: Target’s Def stat
-> (Str + PDf/2 + Atk_bonus_equipment + Weapon_Atk - (Enemy_PDf + Enemy_armor_bonus)): base damage
Ratio_mod: base damage multiplier based on Str stat / enemy PDf ratio
Direction_bonus: base damage multiplier based on from what side the target is attacked
Battle_Lust_bonus: base damage multiplier based on Battle Lust skill
Command_Rune_multiplier: base damage multiplier from weapon command rune spells (e.g. Hawk)
-> ((Str + PDf/2 + Atk_bonus_equipment + Weapon_Atk - (Enemy_PDf + Enemy_armor_bonus)) x Ratio_mod x Direction_bonus x Battle_Lust_bonus x Command_Rune_multiplier): physical damage
Mag: bonus damage from Magic Sword, equals Mag stat. Only if Magic Sword from the Elemental Sword Runes is used or activated.
MDf/2: Wizard Rune effect. Only if Wizard Rune is attached and Magic Sword is used or activated.
Terrain_mod: increases or decreases Mag and MDf, as well as total damage by 35%

Str/EnemyPDf ratio modifier
No matter how high the actual ratio, I’ve never seen a ratio mod higher than 1.2. The highest is 1.2 and at some ratio, the mod even decreases again:
Ratio <0.65 = ratio mod 0.8 (I haven’t tested for ultra low Str characters, so 0.8 was the lowest I’ve seen)
Ratio 0.65-<0.8 = ratio mod 0.85
Ratio 0.8-<0.9 = ratio mod 0.925
Ratio 0.9-<1.1 = ratio mod 1
Ratio 1.1-<1.2 = ratio mod 1.075
Ratio 1.2-<1.35 = ratio mod 1.15
Ratio 1.35-<1.65 = ratio mod 1.2
Ratio >=1.65 = ratio mod 1.15

Terrain effect
It does neither boost Str nor Atk. It even isn’t a base damage multiplier. Even better, it increases total damage by 35%! The only stats that get a bonus are Mag and MDf, and probably Skl (I haven’t tested accuracy). Atk, Def, Str, PDf, and Spd are not increased. I don’t know about Lck and Eva. I guess the damage bonus is 1.35 x 1.35 if the character is on its positive and the target on its negative terrain.

Magic Sword and Wizard Rune
A good thing about the magical bonus damage is that positive terrain has double effect. A bad thing is that, unlike the Warrior Rune effect, the magical damage is not affected by any other damage increasing multiplier.

Warrior Rune
The more PDf, the more effect, but not only that: the more damage multipliers, the more effect! The latter does even more apply to the weapon command rune spells.
Last edited by Wolkendrache on Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:06 pm

nice find with the damage boost from the terrain effect and the ratio mod testing! did you happen to check how standing on the opposite terrain affects it?

i have to see why my original ratio mod numbers are different.. and seeing it decrease in your tests from 1.2 to 1.15 as you increase STR is odd.

i'm not keen on separating all the values for raw STR, warrior rune bonus, weapon atk, and boosts from equipment since we only care about the total ATK in that section.

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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:26 pm

KFCrispy wrote:did you happen to check how standing on the opposite terrain affects it?

I didn't. I assume it's 0.65, but whatever it is, the formula remains the same. I mean the terrain mod is still a total damage multiplier, whatever the different multipliers are.
KFCrispy wrote:i have to see why my original ratio mod numbers are different.. and seeing it decrease in your tests from 1.2 to 1.15 as you increase STR is odd.

It would be nice if you could check it. I made a test for randomization (it's about +/-20), and took it into account. But still, Lalacle for example had a Str/EnPDf ratio of slightly over 2, but her ratio mod was still 1.15, and it was even closer to 1.1 than to 1.2. It's indeed odd, maybe it's supposed to be a balancing factor, idk.
KFCrispy wrote:i don't see a point of including pdf/2 in the formula [...] too confusing!

Yeah, in this thread I could have worked with annotations, but I used the formula needed to calculate from my calculator: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=14047
In a calculator, of course you need the warrior rune effect separate from the Str stat.
For beginners, this would surely be confusing as you say. But I think players who've played a bit know already that if a stat is written in blue, there's some modifier going on. I don't think the first thing total beginners look up would be the physical damage calculation. And even if they do, they would read 2 lines, then think "wtf is battle_lust_mod?!", then leave. :wink:
KFCrispy wrote:you'd have to also include another variable for STR from equipment since we are now using "base STR" as a separate value.

No, I just need to rename it from Atk_bonus_equipment into Str_bonus_equipment (equipment increases Str, not only Atk, similar to warrior rune effect). It's already there. I should also switch it with Weapon_Atk. Luckily all this doesn't affect the result of the formula. Only Ogre Mail is said to increase Atk... do you know how it works?

EDIT: Ok, I've made the above mentioned changes in my "formula post" and made annotations to make it more beginner-friendly.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby KFCrispy » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:53 pm

does Ogre Mail give the Fire icon on someone or the ATK Up icon? i haven't done testing with either... but you can also use items to apply the ATK Up status, right? maybe it's something i'll look into sometime. it's easier just ignoring everything and going with generic ideas (high STR --> more damage lol)

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:13 pm

Hmm i just noticed the description about elemental effects probably say *something* increases or decreases by 50%... please take a look Image

Wolkendrache
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:29 pm

On the first view, it says something about a Lv50 Millay at the bottom, in case you're talking about the part written in orange.
Very busy these days and I'll be away for a week from now, but I'll help you translate more when I come back, as well as write replies in other Tactics threads, you've written a lot in the meantime! Awesome, keep it up!!!
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Aug 05, 2015 6:44 pm

oh the 50 is Millay's level, ok.. and the top section talks about restoring health and either physical damage or attack up / magic damage or attack up ..or STR / MAG up?

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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri Aug 14, 2015 5:36 am

Merits of (walking onto) positive element
• HP restoration
• Atk & Def Up
The paragraph on the right says your Str, Mag, PDf, and MDf values are raised by 30% if you stand on positive terrain. Your HP will be restored by 20% of max HP if you end your turn on positive element or whenever your spot is changed into positive element. If you stand on opposite element, the above parameters go down by 30% and you’ll lose 20% of your max HP.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

KFCrispy
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Re: [Guide] Physical Damage information / calculation & tips

Postby KFCrispy » Fri Aug 14, 2015 10:01 am

ah so it is an indirect effect to damage.... STR goes up 30%


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