Character Analysis, Tiers discussion

[King_Zax]

Hello everyone. This is rpgfreakazoid from GFAQs here. I was actually wondering if there was a Tier list for Suikoden Tactics anywhere around here. If not, I was itching to make one. If anyone wants to help out, I'm making a topic on GFAQs about it.

I posted this here, because I'm hoping that if this generates enough interest, we could get the Suiko Tactics board bumping again, and possibly add in a new level of depth to Suiko Tactics.

If this has been done, I'd love to see a Tier list. Or, if people think a Tier list for this game is to hard to do (which is quite possible for this type of SRPG, this ain't no Fire Emblem) then simply tell me so I can close said topic.

Thanks again everyone. Happy Posting.

[KFCrispy]

i have not seen any tier list, and i feel that considering this is a cooperative type of battle that actually requires teamwork in order to win most of the fights, it is difficult to rate each character individually. i re-emphasize that we would have to agree on the specific criteria and battle situation(s).

what are you going to do about the fact that you can switch characters mid-battle? what if someone's role (Cedric and others) is only to get in the middle of the crowd to change to another character? what if the main purpose of someone is just to support others (not just Support characters but anyone can use items, and magic spells can also provide support)?

[KFCrispy]

a discussion is ensuing at http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmes ... c=39861752
although i'm actually working more on figuring out more technical/battle information now.

[KFCrispy]

the contributors feel the list is "complete" and although the middle/low tier may not be perfect, we've agreed on the top ~10-12 characters.

For what it's worth, that tier list is a shake-up job at classifying characters, and singling out which ones are best. At most points in game, you'll be employing 8-12 characters. Let's look at them:

Hero IV
Sigurd
Corselia
Eugene
Lalacle
Maxine
Kika
Nalleo
Frederica
Mercenary Leader/Kyril
Flare
Andarc

And let's subtract Merc Leader for Kyril, since he must be used. That gives you Kyril, Two Double-Sword users, a throwing-knife user, a spear user, three mages, an axe user, two archers and if you are on a New Game+, a fist user. If you subtract Lalacle for non-New Gamers, you could sub Millay in for a sword user quite easily. Seneca could also be used until Frederica joins.

Also, if you look at the list 7/12 join early. Technically eight, but you have to choose between Nalleo and Sigurd. That is definately a plus for all those characters. Being useful for a large amount of time definately outweighs the strengths of characters who join later. Actually, based off the top fourteen or so characters, you could have a team of the best 8-12 characters as soon as you clear chapter 15.

I really think we narrowed it down well. Some minor problems I have aren't worth major change, namely, I still don't think Ornela warrants that rating for being available for two chapters, but meh, good cases have been made for her and I think an argument for her place would hold water.

I thought we did our job for this fabulously. I'm sure we don't have some of the facts totally straight, but we nailed the majority of them.

My five cents.

here's the complete ranking list. please keep in mind we never really had a set criteria, so it's pretty much a "general usefulness" which also factors in how early or late someone joins in your game.

God Tier:
Hero IV
Sigurd
Corselia
Eugene
Lalacle
Maxine

High Tier:
Kika
Nalleo
Frederica
Mercenary Leader
Flare
Andarc
Seneca
Millay

Upper Middle Tier:
Rachel
Snowe
Kyril
Roget
Reinhold
Champo
Red Mercenary
Kate
Hervey
Simeon
Yellow Mercenary

Middle Tier:
Dario
Ornela
Wendel
Reinbach
Akaghi
Nalkul
Rita
Katarina
Kenneth
Jewel
Mizuki

Lower Middle Tier:
Jeane
Trishtan
Karl
Coop
Jeremy
Gretchen
Lino en Kuldes
Paula
Ameria
Tal
Blue Mercenary

Bottom Tier:
Busk
Selma
Mitsuba
Pablo
Axel
Charlemagne

God Tier was been shortened, and I'm pretty happy with the way it looks. Simeon gets dropped below Roget because I don't like him. Eugene is on the very border of God Tier, and I'm unsure about whether or not to put him up or not

Moved the spear users like I said I would. Rachel is now top of Upper Middle, Reinhold not far behind, Ornela top of middle and Lino at the bottom end of middle. In fact, screw Lino - middle tier is looking a bit chunky so a few from the bottom of middle becomes lower middle. Just because. Want a fight about it?

A few more go into bottom too, since I'm all about evening stuff out. I liked Mitsuba in IV too. Oh well. The tiers are looking better when I've evened them out, if I may speak for myself, but I'm just waiting the backlash for putting someone where they shouldn't belong. I also went out and put Eugene in God tier so God and Bottom tier each have 6 people in, since I'm OCD like that

I'm really not sure what Kate is doing in middle tier - sure, you get her pretty late in the game, but she's still pretty good. Sigurd gets in God for being awesome and early, whereas Kate gets in middle for being awesome and late? Well, it's a good thing she isn't late because I get the feeling she'll give birth to Jack Frost, but I've bumped her into upper middle regardless

for me, other than some stand-out characters, there are definitely certain classes that turn out better than others. (the top 10-12 individuals who were listed above pretty much are all the "stand-out" characters). Since there are only 2 fist, 2 missile, and 2 axe characters with 1 of each being a stand-out character, i won't mention them in the below class ranking.. the leftover characters can be grouped with other groups or by themselves.
1. "Mobile mages", mages who have Extra Move, after getting a Wizard Rune and Cyclone Rune, become godly and can probably handle complete battles as a group of just mobile mages without getting hit once.
2. Archers would be the next most useful, as long as they can mount Owls. their attack range is always useful, and they generally have high skill and a good critical hit rate. the Hawk Rune has a powerful lvl 2 attack and the lvl 3 can hit a lot of targets, and they all have average to high MAG for Magic Sword.
3. Claw users are generally very fast and have SKL, MOV, and EVA. Many of these guys can use Hand of God, and combined with their useful and powerful Lion Rune attacks, some of them become extremely lethal.
4. Spear users have a powerful rune and can use Kangacorns for movement. their weakness is that the Unicorn Rune's attacks all cause Unbalance, so precautions need to be taken.
5. 1-handed Sword users are typically very average and have a poor weapon rune. Many of them are better off using the Kangacorn for the mobility and Kangacorn Rune's attack for damage, but the Kangacorn Rush attack reduces the user's HP.
6. Mages w/out Extra Move can slowly proceed through an area together, destroying anything that comes near them, but their lack of mobility prevents them from making progress within a reasonable amount of turns.
7. Great Sword users are very slow but strong, but accuracy, speed, and mobility are all low. There are a handful of characters from other classes who can easily replace a Great Sword user when you want high damage. Like immobile mages, these guys will take forever to get through an area, and they are much more vulnerable to attacks than mages since they don't have a distance attack.

[KFCrispy]

btw, much of my input in the gamefaqs thread stems from just looking at the lvl 50 start charts we have here: http://www.suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewt ... =40&t=5450

we don't have stat growth rates, but your final stats for each character will end up decently close to our results.

my Excel spreadsheet also includes a lot more information, such as the basic skills (not all) each fighting character has and also if they can equip certain equipment.

[KFCrispy]

DarthMordechai from gamefaqs has written up a Character Analysis guide on gamefaqs. It's not too in-depth, but it's a product of the discussion we had on gamefaqs:

Code: Select all

http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/ps2/file/suikoden_tactics_char_analysis.txt

(copy and paste URL into your browser to access directly)

[IczR1]

Damn i missed this discussion ._. really bugs me, this game is very interesting for a discussion like this.

Very good list, i agree with most of it.

Some of my own opinions ..

Mizuki is a bit too low imo. She's water elemental so she works well with a lot of top tier characters (Sigurd, Corselia, Flare, ..), she can move far, dodges a lot, and her Shrike Rune is really useful, from the moment you get her. I don't think it's really inferior to the Lion Rune, iirc her lvl.2 skill NEVER stuns her (game is a liar) and i'm 50% sure her lvl.3 doesn't either, plus it doesn't cost 20% HP. The 3 square thing of the Lion Rune's lvl.2 skill .. eh who cares, she's a fast striker so setting stuff like that up wouldn't work too well with her anyway.
But yeah, Champo and Wendel are better than her. Claw users in general are just great :> it really surprises me that they are not higher on the list.

I'm also surprised that Kika isn't second after Hero IV (who should have his own tier, seriously). I used all those top tier characters, and her damage output over time was definitely on top of everyone else's. I think she's a bit better than Sigurd, who IS very useful but not as consistently (especially in the damage department). She and Hero IV could probably tackle Obel Ruins alone ;>

One question:
Can anybody explain why Andarc and Snowe are THAT high ? I don't see it (yet), i would love to understand.

[highwind44029]

^^Mizuki's Pile Driver (Shrike Lv. 3) also has a 20% HP damage on herself.

I just can't comprehend Hervey being higher than Keneth. Sure, he can be recruited first, but a) he doesn't have Extra Move, b) he doesn't have Bull's Eye so you can't really put a Berserker Belt on him, and c) Keneth has a higher SKL stat for critical rate, hit rate, and allows him to get Sword of Magic Level 3 earlier.

Andarc is amazing as a magician. I always took him out of my party after getting Corselia in previous games, but I had it wrong. He has high MAG and MDF, decent enough SPD, and most importantly, good will partners. He also has Battle Lust which makes him double up as a physical attacker, for counter-attacking or support attacks. I still say Lightning > Thunder. Thunder Runner's too good of a spell to waste.

My Maxine has a 98 base MAG stat (180+ MAG with equips/Wizard Rune) at Level 50, and clears out Obel Ruins by herself. XD

[IczR1]

^^Mizuki's Pile Driver (Shrike Lv. 3) also has a 20% HP damage on herself.

Oh okay, it's been a while and i'm forgetting fast ^^'

Dunno about Andarc, he's not fast and not strong, depends a lot on other characters. As a fighter he's substandard. And imo lightning isn't a very good element, it doesn't fit into most party builds. In that regard i think it's something like:
wind > water > fire > lightning > earth

[highwind44029]

Lightning and Fire are the best early-game magic runes when you only have the Level 2 MP because of their single-target nukes. And by the time he gets Level 3 MP, you can already give him a Flowing Robe (either from Chiepoo or Haruna) and a Water Rune so that he can use Breath of Ice. You don't have to get stuck with Lightning affinity all the time. Just change it with elemental robes.

[IczR1]

Eww, elemental robes :P i know they do the job, but they take away a very precious equipment slot.

[Runemaster]

I've never used him cause I ain't interested but why is Eugene in such a high rank?

[KFCrispy]

Mizuki - i don't rank her highly because she lacks offense. sure, she dodges great but her weak attacks simply make her less efficient than the better characters; most of the time the goal is to defeat all enemies. she has high MP (high skill), but even with Magic Sword active, she's still not going to dish it out (magic sword bonus isn't so great for her since her MAG is low). also, her great dodging doesn't save weaker allies around her because enemies go for weaker targets in this game.... the only thing that screws up the AI is Firefly Rune (Eugene).

Kika is powerful but most characters simply can't match the nuking power of mages. if i had a choice between Kika and a generic "mobile" mage, i'd always go with the mage simply because they can destroy everything faster. Kika needs to physically meet with the enemy and kill them one by one. most other characters can't catch up with mobile mages. a typical scenario for me is that my mobile mages will run through everything and clear the screen while any non-mages are just running forward with nothing to attack after a few turns have passed.

Andarc and Maxine are basically clones in this game, which is why i always disagreed with DarthMordechai always placing Maxine way ahead. their only difference is the elements they can use, but since they can both use Wind, Lightning, and Fire, they're equal in my books, especially after you give them both Wizard Runes... then their MAG values become the same. w/out Wizard, Andarc has higher MDEF while Maxine has high MAG. well that may be her reason for making Maxine higher; early in the game Maxine will out-class Andarc slightly.
Andarc being able to deal and dish out physical damage will help very early on, but once he gets decent MP you really won't bother to do physical attacks with him.

Snowe is highly praised for his speed. his high speed and ability to mount kangacorns makes him very flexible.. he also won't have accuracy problems and has a lot of MP thanks to his high SKL. if you look at Mizuki, she still wins in dodging but everything else about Snowe is superior-- speed, movement, attack. Snowe can make use of a Violence Rune to take advantage of getting hit.. and he also has a unite with Lazlo who will be seeing more action than the other ninjas (who have unites with Mizuki) if you're using top tier characters.

Eugene has the Firefly Rune which strongly influences AI to become predictable and manageable. stick Eugene in a crowd of enemies and bring in your best attackers... more than likely all the enemies will surround Eugene and try to attack him. that makes battles much easier because you know to just focus on keeping Eugene alive instead of worrying about the whole team. also, Eugene's stat growth gets ridiculous after lvl 30 (i think that's the level, maybe 40); his PDF and EVA go through the roof. did i mention he also has high HP and SKL? the only problem with Eugene is he is slow, so you should plan your strategy accordingly.. enemies generally get a turn advantage over him (but at least they'll still be attacking him). another minor problem is that Eugene's low LUK helps him get permanently killed easily if he is defeated in battle, but you can always restart your battle if you don't want to lose characters permanently.

My Maxine has a 98 base MAG stat (180+ MAG with equips/Wizard Rune) at Level 50, and clears out Obel Ruins by herself. XD

that's really different from my stats! is that with a lot of magic boosting equipment?

[IczR1]

That was very insightful KFCrispy (like always), thx for explaining :>

About Mizuki, yeah she's not the most damaging character in the world, still it's enough to 1-hit-kill some enemies if she's standing on a water-tile (likely). I use her as a standalone unit that i seperate early from the rest of the gang to kill those small-numbered units coming from an odd angle. Works well for me.
I definitely understand why she's mid tier in this game (and definitely below Wendel, her direct rival), though would still argue about listing her below the likes of Jewel, Rita, Kenneth and Nalkul (who imo is the worst claw user).
But yeah, that's just nitpicking :> i think the tiers in this game are not as strict as in most other (T)RPG's, which is also a reason why it's harder to tier. I like how even the lower tiered characters can be useful (except for greatsword users they really DO suck lol, poor Mitsuba i could never make her useful), since there are also a lot of characters to choose from, keeps things fresh. E.g. i used Gretchen a lot (because i like her, her stats are not so good), even in my all S rank run, and mounted she did pretty well for me with her high PDEF and kanacorn movement + rune. Of course there are better characters, but it hardly matters when it's already enough in the damage department and working with your strategy :>

a typical scenario for me is that my mobile mages will run through everything and clear the screen while any non-mages are just running forward with nothing to attack after a few turns have passed.

Yeah, same here, probably why i stopped using them in my second run, to have a bit more fun than that ;>
But why is Sigurd still ahead of them (and Kika) then ? I know his stats + that knife rune (great skill set, and he gets a hell of a lot of skill points iirc) are great stuff, but is that already enough ?

And one last question (probably not, but whatever :P): Rachel and Busk are really far away from each other in the list, why ? (i wouldn't know, Rachel was the only spear user i ever really used).

[highwind44029]

I sorta manipulated her level-ups so that her MAG always increases by 2 per level. Aside from that, our stats almost match, with differences of like only 1 point. I could have done the same to Andarc, but I had to pick one, and I like Maxine better. =P She has 183 MAG with a Wizard Rune, Iskas's Bracelet, Simeon's Spell Book, Archmage's Glasses, Woven-Grass Medal, Imperial Ring, Tome of Black Arts, and Merchant's Cap. O_O Yeah, you can tell she's my favorite character. XD Did you know that Maxine is the only pure magician (so Lazlo doesn't count) character that has a 2 in JMP??? =O

Eugene's PDF and EVA goes up +3 about 90-95% of the time after Level 30. Same with Snowe's SPD and Nalleo's STR.

I noticed Mizuki's lack of power too. Even with Battle Lust and a Berserker Belt she doesn't hit very hard. There are definitely other better characters than her. She makes a decent evading "tank" early in the game, but Eugene on a Kangacorn is good enough even if his PDF and EVA are still low because he has high HP anyway, plus he has a Firefly Rune. Oh, and Mizuki also can't equip Hand of God.

Kika could deal lots of damage, which could help with rankings (3xDMG is not a joke!) but she can't hit multiple enemies in a turn unlike mages with Breath of Ice or The Shredding, Sigurd with Piercing/Smoking Shot, Nalleo with Earth Split, Lalacle with Air Shot, Flare/Seneca/Fredrica (honestly all of them are good) with Dance of the Hawk, Wendel/Champo with Shredding Claw, Lazlo with Double-Edged Sword, or Kyril with Flying Swallow Cut.


Edited to add: Re: Rachel & Busk. I could think of two reasons: a) Rachel is recruited much much earlier, and b) Busk usually doesn't reach 60 SKL, so he doesn't get a head rune slot.

Edited to add again: What's wrong with elemental robes? It's not like there's a Robe of the Dead in this game that boosts MAG by 50. There aren't a lot of other good equipments for magicians anyway, except maybe the Guardian Vestment, the Phantasmal Coat or the Venus Armor for the females, but if you use your magicians right, they shouldn't even be getting hit in the first place.

Edited to add again x2: Maxine also has a strong Coop Attack with Simeon and Roget that has a wide range, and charges quickly, while Andarc's can be hard to position (albeit useful early game).