Character evaluation in numbers

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Wolkendrache
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Character evaluation in numbers

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:11 am

Here is something to toy with…
ST_Fighters_or_Mages_Evaluation.xlsx


What’s that?!
I called it evaluator. It will automatically generate a character ranking based on different criteria. You are supposed to decide how important each criterion is.

How does it work?
Easy. On the first page just fill in the blanks according to the number range suggested. You could enter higher numbers but it will probably destroy the balance. Then just switch to the second page and watch your character ranking.

I already know which characters are best, so what is it good for?
I’m sure you’ll stumble on some surprises in your top 10 or top 20. In this case, it’s time to try these characters out! The main purpose is to have a ranking about how effective the characters are. Unfortunately you can’t compare fighters with mages, so for the time being, you need to decide first what you want to rate: fighters (fill out according to what is important for a good fighter) or mages (fill out according to what makes a good mage).

You forgot some criteria!
I know, this is just the first version. If you have ideas for improvement please tell me. For the time being, you can manually add or deduct points manually (for the criteria I forgot): use the “Unsorted” page column S. Not the second page; the “Unsorted” page! For example, if I want to rate physical damage dealers, I would deduct like 20 or 30 points to everyone without battle lust (all mages except Jeane and Andarc iirc).

That’s all?
This document has many uses, because you don’t need to necessarily fill out everything:
- Fill out only the stats (Str, HP, etc.) to see who is the best stat-wise.
- If you want to know which characters are best at a particular stat, then only fill out the according blank. Example: just enter 1 in line 24 to have a list of the fastest characters. You can do that for every stat.
- You can use it to check who has something particular and who doesn’t. Example: enter 1 in line 4 to check who can wear the Hand of God. You could also check the “Files” page in case you prefer it alphabetically but unsorted.

Remember to give some ideas for improvement. It would be cool to have something like this for all Suikoden games…
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"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:02 pm

Great sheet! There seems to be some kind of small error, though, as it doesn't properly execute some things. Sorry, hard to explain, let me show an example:

Let's say Magic is the only important skill to me - "3". Karl, Dario and Coop are all bad at magic so they have a 2.209 in Magic. But in the Ranking chart their "value" is as follows:

Karl: 6.62721
Dario: 6.62712
Coop: 6.62711

I don't know where this error comes from and it's only very small, but it might accumulate when more stats are selected.

Wolkendrache
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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu Jul 09, 2015 12:18 pm

Thanks!

If you leave everything blank, you'll notice that they all have some very small base values. In fact it's like a numeration reverse-alphabetic. I needed this because otherwise the sorted list would have problems with 2 or more characters of the same total score. Coop is number 11 in the alphabetical list, so he gets a 0.00011. Don't worry it doesn't accumulate. But yes, it's not... beautiful. I suck at excel, and this was the only solution I found, sorry. Is there a better way to handle that? It would be the first improvement!
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:50 pm

You could simply change the way that column shows numbers, like only the last 4 decimal numbers. That would solve the problem (probably). But can't Excel handle equal numbers when ordering?

Wolkendrache
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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:36 am

Oh, now I know what the „0,00->0,0” button means. I also managed to make the alphabetical order appear. I will wait for more improvements/additions before uploading a new version. Thanks!

I’m curious about your top10 fighters according to the evaluator. Mine was…
Lalacle
Nalleo
Nalkul
Kika
Champo
Akaghi
Ornela
Kyril
Mizuki
Wendel (followed by Kate and Sigurd)

I forgot to mention that this evaluation is based on Lv50 characters, even though this fact is not important for most characters. However, it matters for those characters with an extraordinary development in a particular stat. These are only very few characters, they are listed in the “Rates” page under “Individual Growth Rates”. In other words, if this evaluation was made for Lv30 characters, then some characters would be a little worse (i.e. Lalacle, Nalleo, Snowe, Eugene, Sigurd, Karl) while others would be a little better (i.e. Trishtan, Rita, Rachel).
Example: At Lv30 Lalacle would have a lower value in the Str and HP columns; Str would be similar to Kika and HP similar to Lazlo for example. In my ranking, Lalacle would fall back to the 2nd place, Nalleo on place 7, thus making Nalkul the top fighter!
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby Antimatzist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 6:43 am

I had pretty much the same result as you had! I think Wendel wasn't in the top 10, though. Was really surprised to see Champo. I'm also surprised that Katarina's Magic growth is so bad, I always thought she would be better than that. And Roget is equally bad! :-O Maybe you could colour Mages and Fighters in a different colour so it's easier to seperate them visiually? Great guide!

KFCrispy
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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby KFCrispy » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:46 am

wow, this is quite something! O_o

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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby KFCrispy » Mon Jul 13, 2015 11:11 am

my problem is deciding on all the priorities.. i mean assigning numbers 0-3 is simple, but 0-10 and 0-30 is really arbitrary.

maybe you can create "filters"? back when I evaluated characters with my Level 50 spreadsheet, I used a ton of filters and re-sorting. My own problem with the sorting is that it had to be strict, since I was using the static, randomly-generated stats. I can see how knowing the growth rates is better.... that will allow for multiple sorting criteria since characters will be weighed by the generalized growth rates.

some key filters I used for my own spreadsheet were:
-weapon types... if fact i might wamt to consider short-range or long-range. and one thing to note is Dart users are both!
-Extra Move
-can use Hand of God or other equipment
-can use Kangacorn/Owl
-innate Element .. or "available Elements" - for my own spreadsheet I might try to expand this to be more flexible knowing certain characters can use certain armors to change elements

-I would also look for good candidates for Berserker Belt, but the criteria can vary, since it depends on either spamming a rune (high SKL) or possibly having the right abilities like Bull's Eye and/or Sniper.

Wolkendrache
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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:50 pm

0-3 is because it’s a multiplier to a base which is determined by the stat rank. It’s average Lv50 value divided by 10, so a character with average Str will get 5.4 evaluation points if you enter 1, or 16.2 points if you enter 3. It works the same for all common stats. As for HP, I used the common stats average Lv50 values as the base to make it comparable. This means you get 2-9 (depending on stat rank) when entering 1, 4-18 when entering 2, and 6-27 when entering 3.
Weapon attack works the same: WLv8 value divided by 10 (e.g. 130/10=13 for 2-h sword users). Keep in mind that while Weapon Atk is higher than Str, it does not increase ratio mod, so it’s a good idea to rate Str higher than W-Atk.
Hand of God and Ogre Breath work the same too: HoG base is 4 (40 Str divided by 10), OB base is 1.5 (15 divided by 10). In other words, 10 points in a stat gives a character 1 point for the evaluation. Keep in mind that on the one hand these items are extremely useful, but on the other hand you’ll only get 2 of each per run, and only very late.

The problem with the other criteria is that there is no base, so the number you enter will be the value for that criterion. Why did I use 0-10 and 0-30? I used 30 because that is about the maximum you get for the stats criteria (I could have used 27, it’s not much of a difference). I used 10 as max for Mov because it will be doubled for characters with 7 Mov. I had a mount criteria with 0-30 previously and divided it into Owl and Kangacorn, so I changed it from 0-30 to 0-10 each (maybe 0-15 makes more sense). I could make up a base value to be multiplied by a value from 0-3, but I want the user to have as much control as possible. I recommend just to experiment a bit by entering different numbers and watching the results.

Sure I can try to add filters, so you have the option to hide certain characters, that’s a good idea. I just don’t understand the connection between filters and the problem of determining numbers to evaluate characters, this is a different kettle of fish, isn’t it?
KFCrispy wrote:-I would also look for good candidates for Berserker Belt, but the criteria can vary, since it depends on either spamming a rune (high SKL) or possibly having the right abilities like Bull's Eye and/or Sniper.

The criteria depend on the style of playing. I would only wear it on someone who has enough command rune attacks (100% hit chance). Skills have failed me too often. So from my point of view it’s easy: just add points to the command runes because they make the use of the b-belt possible. However, other players might disagree. So I really don’t know how to implement that b-belt thing.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

KFCrispy
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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:15 pm

haha i'm not saying you need to come up with these things.. i'm just pointing out how i have used these stat charts in the past to figure out ways to improve characters and compare them.

Wolkendrache
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Re: Character evaluation in numbers

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:06 pm

Yeah, but filters are a good idea, like you could watch a list of your best Hand of God user and so on. I wanna add some filters, so I'll try to figure out how to do that...
Berserk Belt as a criteria isn't a bad idea either, I just don't know how to implement it. That needs more contemplation.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan


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