Stat Growth Examination

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Wolkendrache
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Stat Growth Examination

Postby Wolkendrache » Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:25 pm

*******************************UPDATE***********************************
Examination Document:
ST_Stat_Growth_&_Ranks.xlsx

****************************UPDATE END*********************************


I did a little examination on stat growth. What I did was using the 3 Lv50 databases from here
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=5450
as well as my own Lv20 and Lv38 databases.

Similar to other Suikoden games there are 2 points where progression changes. In Suikoden 2 it’s Lv20 and Lv60. The exact equivalent of Tactics would be Lv10 and Lv30, but I’m really not sure, because according to the data, it could as well be Lv20 and Lv40 or even other combinations. In short: I couldn’t figure out the exact growth changing points. Once I know them, I could calculate the exact growth rates. As of now I could calculate several possible scenarios but we want the one used in the game of course.

Less important, but still another thing I don’t know much about yet are starting stats (Lv1 stats). I think they are fixed, because I recruited Rita several times and her starting stats were always the same (same for Lalacle). Most characters don’t start at Lv1, so it’s hard to figure out.
Lalacle
Str 2, PDf 2, Skl 3, MDf 3, Mag 3, Spd 2, Eva 2, Lck 2
Rita
Str 3, PDf 2, Skl 2, MDf 2, Mag 4, Spd 2, Eva 2, Lck 3
I guess 2 and 3 are the most common starting stats, while 4 and maybe 1 are exceptions.

As you can see I haven’t figured it all out yet, but here’s what I figured out so far…

Stat ranks (or growth rate ranks)
The 60 characters in the game don’t have an individual progression each. If you look at the characters’ HP at Lv50, you’ll notice that Axel, Karl and Trishtan have a stat close to 550. The next best characters HP-wise all have a stat close to 510. There’s no one really close to 530. I took HP as example because the ranks are very obvious here due to the low randomizing factor. It’s more difficult with the other stats, because their ranges sometimes overlap. Anyway, there are 7 different regular progressions and 2 kinds of special progressions. I’m calling the 7 regular ones according to the ranks: S, A, B, C, D, E and F. As for HP, Axel, Karl and Trishtan are rank S, the ones close to 510 are rank A, and so on. By “regular” I mean a steady progression. Axel, Karl and Trishtan have a regular HP progression, as they have the highest HP from an early level to level 50. There are 2 different special progressions which I call “downward” and “upward” progressions. A character starting with a high growth rate early (as if rank S or so) and having a significantly lower growth rate in later levels (ending up at like rank C or so) has a downward progression in that stat. Upward progression is just the other way around.

Here’s an exemplary comparison between regular and special progression:
Dario’s Str (regular rank A progression)
Lv20: 33, Lv38: 57, Lv50: 84
Nalleo’s Str (upward progression)
Lv20: 23, Lv38: 60, Lv50: 96
Note that there are only very few characters with a special progression in a particular stat.

Here are the average numbers of the regular stat ranks at certain levels (not including HP of course)
S
Lv20: 35.75; Lv38: 67.1; Lv50: 87.6
A
Lv20: 33.25; Lv38: 61.3; Lv50: 78.9
B
Lv20: 28.25; Lv38: 51.6; Lv50: 66.9
C
Lv20: 22.5; Lv38: 41.7; Lv50: 54.25
D
Lv20: 17.25; Lv38: 31.4; Lv50: 40.2
E
Lv20: 13.1; Lv38: 24.2; Lv50: 31
F
Lv20: 8.4; Lv38: 17.7; Lv50: 21

If you want to help out please watch certain stats of certain characters while playing:
- At which levels does Nalleo get significantly more HP? (There should be 2 points between Lv2 and Lv50)
- At which level do Nalleo and Lalacle start to get 3s to Str?
- At which level does Kyril start to get 3s to Str?
- At which level does Snowe get 0s to Str?
(This is to help find the progression changing points)

Moreover, more level X databases would be great. It doesn’t have to be Lv50, but all characters should be of the same level of course. A Lv30 database would be nice.
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Last edited by Wolkendrache on Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:31 am

I asked someone if the official Japanese guide has stat growth charts. I only know it lists stat grwoth "grade" (that is S, A, B, etc...).

This is a project I wanted to do for a long time, maybe I'll get to it soonish.

KFCrispy
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:42 am

i think all the significant changes in stat growths occur at level 31 or 30 until 50.

i do have the japanese guide. i do want to replay this game in the summer, but it'll depend on time. when i do, i'll definitely dig out the book and finish posting information i had started collecting (such as stage ranking requirements)... may have lost the documents i had started because i had a couple computer issues over the months though.

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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:22 pm

So unfortunately, the Japanese guide only has Level 40 average stats listed. Boo, Konami!

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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:43 pm

that's helpful to some extent.... but yeah it's not very informative. i really wished they had damage formula details in the guide too.

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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:48 pm

I thought about it and if I start writing down all the stat growths for all characters at each level in my next playthrough, we can it with their stat grwoth ranks and thus should get enough data to create a stat grwoth sheet. That'd be great! But we'd need these ranks for every character.

Wolkendrache
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:53 am

Antimatzist wrote:I thought about it and if I start writing down all the stat growths for all characters at each level in my next playthrough, we can it with their stat grwoth ranks and thus should get enough data to create a stat grwoth sheet. That'd be great! But we'd need these ranks for every character.

We've already got the ranks for every character, I've posted them. What we need in the end is all the growth rates for every rank and level stage. The data from character level-ups would tell us all we still need: 1) where the stat growth changing points are and 2) you can calculate the growth rates. You don't even need to write down all the data until 50, it's enough to do it until the last growth changing point (Lv40 or Lv35, but most likely Lv30), the rest can be calculated via the Lv50 databases (and you could even include Konami's Lv40 database).

Actually I've already started to write down level-up data while trying to figure out the first growth changing point. If it turns out to be Lv10, then I'll assume the second one is Lv30, but it would still need confirmation. Btw I think a Lv30 database would be useful, because that's your late-game level. I guess most players don't go beyond Lv35. If major growth changes occur after Lv30, then we will be blinded by the Lv50 databases, so we need one for Lv30 characters.
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Antimatzist » Wed Apr 29, 2015 5:55 am

Woops, didn't check your excel sheet. Then I'll keep it ready and an eye on stat growths. Maybe I can already contribute my end game party which has random level distribution, some go ~ Level 40, others are ~30, most support characters below that.

Wolkendrache
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed May 06, 2015 12:11 pm

KFCrispy wrote:i think all the significant changes in stat growths occur at level 31 or 30 until 50.

This seems to be true for the regular progressions. There's only 1 changing point at Lv30.
As for the special progressions, I don't know yet. A few characters have an individual progression for only a few levels, e.g. Rita's Mag and Rene's Skl. Rita's high Mag stat can be useful for quests, but I don't know what Rene's high Skl in early game should be good for.

Anyway, I'll come up with some data in a few days...
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

Wolkendrache
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Wolkendrache » Mon May 11, 2015 12:42 pm

Alright, I’ve got some results. The document can be found in the OP.
The first tab lists the ranks. It’s an updated version of the one that I’ve already shared.
The second tab includes all growth rate lists. The growth rates are largely based on my Lv30 database, as well as 3 Lv50 databases that can be found on this board.
The third tab includes the Lv30 database. I had more tabs with all the detailed growth up to Lv30 for every character and stat, but unfortunately the file was too big to upload here (275kb), so I had to cut that information. I could split these missing tabs into 9 separate files and upload them if you want.

Annotations:

Base stats and starting stats
By base stats I mean initial stats at Lv1. By starting stats I mean the stats the characters have at the level they join. At first I thought base stats were predetermined, because when I recruited Lalacle and Rita in 2 different runs, they had exactly the same base stats. However, comparing my characters’ base and starting stats to the ones in the walkthrough of this page, it seems that they have a randomizing factor. The base stats are different except for Lalacle’s for some reason. The fact that the starting stats differ even more (the higher the starting level, the bigger the difference) shows that it’s not only the base stats that change from game to game. Whenever you recruit a character, the game will generate the base stats, then simulate growth according to the character’s ranks in the various stat categories, thus determining their starting stats.

Example: Kika has rank S in Skl, so she will gain 1-2 points per level (more likely 2). She joins at level 8, so she will never have less than 8 points when she joins, and it’s impossible for her to start with more than 18 Skl points. According to her exact growth rate, the game will generate a starting Skl between 8 and 18, most likely 14 or 15.

Since there are only 5 characters starting at Lv1 (Kyril, Lalacle, Rita, Rene and Snowe), we don’t have a lot of information about base stats. The most common starting stat is 2, then 3, then 1. I’ve seen a 4 only 2 times: Rene’s Skl and Rita’s Mag, but keep in mind that they have an individual progression there, so maybe a 4 is impossible for all other characters, no matter which stat, but I’m not 100% on that.

As for base HP, it’s something between approximately 16 and 25. Characters with a high HP rank seem to start at slightly over 20, while the rest starts at 20 or little less.

Regular Growth Rates
As you can see, progression before and after Lv30 is almost identical. There is a bigger disparity at rank S and F, but this could stem from the low number of characters in that rank (too few empirical data). It is possible that regular growth rates are even easier to sum up:
S: 1-2 (75%)
A: 1-2 (56%)
B: 1-2 (33%)
C: 1-2 (8%)
D: 0-1 (80%)
E: 0-1 (60%)
F: 0-1 (40%)
…all the way to Lv50. The numbers in the document are based on the exact numbers of the databases.

Inconstancies (that I can’t explain)
- Katarina got a 3 in Eva once
- Kyril got a 12 in HP once
- Rachel got a 10 in HP once

Finally, if you find a mistake or have some questions, please write a comment.
"Within the four seas, all men are brothers" Shuihu Zhuan

Wolkendrache
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Wolkendrache » Fri Jun 12, 2015 2:38 pm

There's an updated version in the OP including another Lv50 database. There are only few changes regarding growth rates.

Regular growth rates are consistent until maximum as mentioned in the previous post.

BTW, I remember someone asking if it's possible to get 100 or more in one stat. A member tried to get Maxine's Mag to 100 by reloading, but ended up at 98. The problem is that Maxine has only rank A in Mag. If you try to bring someone up to 100, pick someone with S rank or those with an extraordinary growth after Lv30. If you're lucky you will sometimes get a 100 anyway: my Karl got 100 Spd without any form of manipulation.
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:12 pm

ooh cool, gotta check it out later

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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 9:12 am

how did you create the level 30 and 50 stat charts? were they based on the stat growth? i thought many characters would have the same final numbers considering there are a limited number of stat growth types, but i see so many different numbers...

for example, all these characters have an A in STR: Blue Merc, Busk, Coop, Dario, Hervey, Karl, Kyril, Lazlo, Lino, Tal. but most of their level 50 STR stats are different-- 70, 85, 75, etc

Wolkendrache
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:44 pm

KFCrispy wrote:how did you create the level 30 and 50 stat charts? were they based on the stat growth?

No. The first thing I did was comparing Lv50 databases, realizing there was something like ranks for stats. Then I started determining the ranks for each rank and character. However, knowing that some characters have a change in growth at some stats, I couldn’t calculate growth rates. I didn’t even know whether all characters have at least slight changes, the Lv50 databases don’t tell you that.

So in the end I played the whole game and brought every single character to Lv50 and wrote down all the Lv-up stat gains. From that chart (that I couldn't upload because it made the document too big) I saw whether there are changing points and at which level. I also took the values from the other databases to get closer to the average. From this I calculated the growth rates. Most of all it was necessary to detect all those exceptions, e.g. Trishtan’s Spd bonus, Rachel’s HP bonus, Rita’s unusual Mag development, etc.
KFCrispy wrote:i thought many characters would have the same final numbers considering there are a limited number of stat growth types, but i see so many different numbers...

for example, all these characters have an A in STR: Blue Merc, Busk, Coop, Dario, Hervey, Karl, Kyril, Lazlo, Lino, Tal. but most of their level 50 STR stats are different-- 70, 85, 75, etc

Why should characters of the same stat rank have identical final stats? Example: regular rank A has a growth of 1-2 (57% for higher value) up to Lv50, so the average final stat would be 79, but a span of +/-7 is normal, as the values you listed show.
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KFCrispy
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Re: Stat Growth Examination

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:48 pm

oh i thought you had some projected Lv 30 and Lv 50 stats, not based on real game results.. i want to get some expected numbers so that characters with the same growth in a stat and then it would allow me to do multiple sorts.....


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