Rune Combinations for Fighters

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby KFCrispy » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:02 pm

turn order is complicated for sure. defending will get the next turn out sooner, and other actions (not sure about items) cause delays for the next turn.
the damage formula is really complicated, and even more if you're trying to think of what happens in 6 turns. i do prefer Gale over many runes because the game isn't just about damage; having more turns than the enemy is always a good thing. in the serious battles, they certainly last more than 5 turns...... it usually takes a couple turns to even reach a boss on a map or to mop up the randoms that appear as reinforcements, etc. so i really don't care for some kind of calculated damage over "6 turns" but prefer having the potential to produce high damage when needed to multiple targets.

for Frederica specifically, i try to give her STR boosts like Hand of God (and maybe Berserker Belts), so the Warrior Rune's small boost isn't too useful (it won't give her a bump on the str/pdf ratio since Hand of God already raises the modifier to max). I also like giving her the Hawk Rune and Magic Sword. i don't rely too much on attacking while mounted, since it doesn't utilize Battle Lust when mounted.

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Sun Feb 15, 2015 3:36 pm

I've put a damage calculator for rune combinations into the OP. It's definitely worth a look!

If you find mistakes in the formula or if you have questions, go ahead.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby gildedtalon » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:21 am

Thank you sir, at first I got confused by Magic Sword because your original post is wrong and misleading

I just realized that Magic Sword gives a terrain modifier for the next 2 turns
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I already closed gildedtalon, my old account

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:33 am

You mean the old OP? I originally tried to use a simplified formula for the test (deliberately leaving out most modifiers) until I changed my mind. But there were (or would have been) some mistakes, e.g. I ignored that when MS is activated you get the Mag bonus when using Command Runes, etc.
Yes, I included the terrain bonus for MS for the 2 turns after activating it. Because of this, if you further change the terrain mod in column N, then this will only affect the 1st turn of all MS combinations, of course.

Evaluation
Magic Sword alone: Not realistic. By the time you can use MS (getting your first Lv3 spell) you’ll already have more than 1 rune slots.
Warrior Rune alone: Not very realistic. You can get them once you reach Haruna, but by that time most characters will already have 2 rune slots (except maybe Dario, Coop, Mitsuba, Trishtan and Tal). And if they’re underleveled because they weren’t used, I wouldn’t put them to the front line with half PDf anyway.
Command Rune: In early game, when you only have 1 rune slot and Lv1+2 spells, it is most effective for all spells with at least a 1.5 multiplier, i.e. Hawk, Eagle, Lion, Gozz and Titan (as well as Falcon and Shrike of course). Use beads or other characters to change the terrain for your Command rune users.
Magic Sword + Wizard Rune: This is the weakest of all the tested 2 rune combinations, at least under realistic battle conditions (i.e. lots of multipliers). The gain from the Wizard Rune isn’t high because its bonus damage is not affected by most of the multipliers.
Magic Sword + Warrior Rune: The bonus from the Warrior Rune is affected by all multipliers, and it often increases one of them (ratio mod). Thereby the total damage is increased drastically. I always underrated this rune, but now I know why it is so expensive.
Magic Sword + Command Rune: In my opinion this is the most useful combo. It might deal less damage than the Warrior Rune combinations, but you always have 100% hit chance, can always change terrain, and don’t get a PDf penalty.
Warrior Rune + Command Rune: This 2 rune combination deals the most damage (by far), except for 1H sword users. However, due to the 100% hit chance from Command Runes, you can give them a berserk belt. If there are lots of high multipliers, MS+Command+berserk belt will at least be stronger than MS+Wizard, even for Paula who has a high MDf. Btw, berserk belt is a good choice for everyone who has enough spells to always use Command Rune attacks.
3 rune combinations: MS+Warrior+Command is obviously the strongest combination.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Antimatzist » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:31 am

Great work! Nice to see that I wasn't THAT wrong, haha. But I will look into using command runes more often from now on, at least for more characters.
In a real battle, a lot of things can change. Elemental Sword is especiallz useful when you have several front characters with that element and most of your enemies are weak against it, allowing for some nice tactics.
And wow, Kika is badass.

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:40 am

Oh, I should add one thing:

This work only reflects damage potential, it doesn’t reflect the entire effictivity of a character. I think effectivity = damage potential + mobility + others. By mobility I mean Spd, Mov, Extra Move, Godspeed, an early third rune slot for the gale rune, ability to mount, etc. By others I mean, you know, defensive abilities, accuracy, partners for a good unite attack, etc. Often enough characters with a high damage potential have problems in other fields. Because of this, for example, the gap between Sigurd and Kate isn’t as big as the damage calculator suggests; and because of this, I think Lalacle is overall much more badass than Kika, but still, agreed, Kika is damn badass.
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KFCrispy
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby KFCrispy » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:21 pm

remember that Magic Sword doesn't necessarily give a terrain boost, since you can use an element that doesn't match the character's element.


by the way, to mess around with the Ratio Mod, how about letting users enter a PDF value for the target. that way you can calculate both the ratio mod and the Warrior Rune ratio with a vlookup (exact match false) if the table is setup in order.

also are you going to consider equipment?

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:40 pm

Have you actually seen the calculator in the OP? You CAN enter the enemy PDf, and the calculator automatically calculates 2 ratio mods: a normal ratio mod and a warrior rune ratio mod. For every warrior rune combo, the warrior rune ratio mod is taken for calculation. You can also enter a value for Str boost from equipment.

EDIT: I think I know now what you mean. I've named the column on which ratio mod is based "enemy def". Consider this as "enemy pdf" for now. Later I will add another column either for enemy equipment bonus or for enemy Def stat. As of now, you don't get correct results if you fight targets with equipment. I'll change this asap.

Generally, this calculator is about maximum damage potential, not minimum damage potential. In their 3 turns, the characters unleash their strongest attacks. Of course you could use magic sword of opposite or neutral terrain, and of course you could waste Lalacle's 3 turns by casting the white tiger rune 2nd spell for a damage outcome of 0. But hey, come on...
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:40 am

Calculator updated, thanks!
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KFCrispy
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby KFCrispy » Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:38 am

oh i didn't even notice the enemy def column in the first version :)
i would personally modify the spreadsheet so you can enter a single enemy PDF at the top, and the values can all be calculated from it.. but it's fine as it is!

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:18 am

Damage Calculator updated! (see OP)
It had a mistake: the ratio_mod formula had previously ignored the Str bonus from equipment
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:07 am

i started evaluating characters who would benefit from Warrior Rune in terms of STR... i'll probably setup some characters with the rune once i get my hands on them since i'm playing again :)
-Sigurd for sure, since he has ridiculous PDF and can stay completely out of enemy range
-Eugene is a maybe.. obviously at level 50 he's a godly evader, but he's still going to be the primary target when he's out there
-many 1-h Sword characters like Trishtan will definitely benefit since the Viper Rune is so average. Grethen stands out; she has high STR and PDF
-Reinbach will benefit a lot
-Kate
-Rachel

Wolkendrache
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Jul 14, 2015 2:48 pm

Iirc it was you who recently said in another thread that “damage is not everything”. 100% true. When thinking about good candidates for the rune, I wouldn’t focus on characters who benefit most from it stat-wise. So you would give Sigurd the warrior rune and Mizuki the gale rune? I would do it exactly the other way round. Sigurd’s problem is low Mov and average Spd, he has much less problems in dealing damage due to his eagle rune (and not to forget the ability to use the Hand of God). Mizuki often times fails to 1-hit-kill despite her shrike rune because she lacks a few Atk points due to low W-Atk and no good Str-boosting equipment. So I’d still give Sigurd the gale rune (but later on the head slot) and Mizuki the warrior rune, even though they benefit less stat-wise. In my opinion they are more effective in a battle that way.

Eugene: I’d give him a gale rune rather than warrior rune, but he has no free 3rd slot, and I wouldn’t replace unicorn and flowing sword. You could use warrior instead of flowing sword for max damage, but the ability to change terrain is very important at times.
Trishtan and other 1-h sword users: For most of them and for most of the time Viper + berserk belt is better. In later levels, warrior is stronger but doesn’t give 100% hit chance and still halves your PDf. I’d only give it to those with a free 3rd rune slot, but only if they’re fast enough, otherwise I prefer the gale rune.
Reinbach: Perfect! He’s got his command rune on the head slot, so he’ll get his second free slot very early (Lv24 on average).
Kate: She’ll get her head slot at Lv38 on average.
Rachel: Head slot at Lv45.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby KFCrispy » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:04 pm

of course Hand of God is good for Sigurd, but it's not easily obtainable and is limited, so I want to showcase some setups that anyone can pull off at that point in the game. I also can move Hand of God to other characters.

Gale Rune would also be good for Sigurd... probably go with Eagle, Warrior, and Gale. But another tempting idea is Kangacorn Rune so that he starts mounted, gets to a good spot, and activates berserk on turn 1, then dismounts and snipes someone for huge damage. there are items and support that can give berserk or ATK Up though, so maybe that's better.

I think Gale Rune is not always the best idea for characters who aren't going to do much damage. Also, characters with low SPD don't benefit too much from it. Someone with 40 SPD will only end up with 48 SPD, while a high SPD character with 75 SPD jumps to 90! Eugene is mostly going to tank it out throughout most of the game and I think it's fine that he rarely moves. A Kangacorn gets him in a good position and from there he can get slaughtered lol.

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Tue Jul 14, 2015 5:00 pm

KFCrispy wrote:of course Hand of God is good for Sigurd, but it's not easily obtainable and is limited, so I want to showcase some setups that anyone can pull off at that point in the game.

You can buy warrior runes after the battle at Haruna (late mid-game). Unless you’re in NG+, you’ll not have enough money to buy several warrior orbs until late-game. But yeah, they’re unlimited.
KFCrispy wrote:I think Gale Rune is not always the best idea for characters who aren't going to do much damage. Also, characters with low SPD don't benefit too much from it. Someone with 40 SPD will only end up with 48 SPD, while a high SPD character with 75 SPD jumps to 90!

Forget the greater benefit! You’re not going to solo. Imagine a team of 2 characters: one with Spd 40, the other Spd 90 due to gale rune. The fast character would either die at the front lonely; or wait for the slow but strong character (so the Spd bonus is wasted); or, if it’s a strong character, kill all the enemies alone before the slow character reaches them, leaving no Exp for the latter. I’m arguing that a Spd 48 character + Spd 75 character are more effective in combination, fighting more evenly and mutually supportive. I’m always giving Dario a Wing Shield (Spd +5) instead of a Str-boosting shield, I would even prefer it over an Ogre Breath (I’m also giving him the Imperial Ring when available for another +5 Spd). This way he can keep up with Nalleo longer to perform their awesome unite attack. Slow characters urgently need Spd while they usually got enough Str and PDf. Fast characters often lack Str and PDf, so what they don’t really need is even more Spd. For a weak but fast character +5 Str is more important than +15 Spd; for a strong but slow character +5 Spd is more important than +15 Str. Maybe that’s just my opinion.
As for fast characters who can’t do much damage (Millay, Ameria, …), yes, I’d prefer warrior over gale.
KFCrispy wrote:Eugene is mostly going to tank it out throughout most of the game and I think it's fine that he rarely moves. A Kangacorn gets him in a good position and from there he can get slaughtered lol.

Haha, especially when his PDf is halved by the warrior rune! :D
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