Rune Combinations for Fighters

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Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:59 pm

******************************************************* EDIT ************************************************************

Here’s the damage calculator for fighter’s rune combinations:
ST_Damage_Calculator3.xlsx


The first table is the calculator. The second table is an explanation of the total damage formula, and it tells you what numbers to use if you want to include modifiers.

What you can modify:
- Str, Weapon attack, PDf, MDf, Mag and Enemy Def.
- Attack bonus from equipment, Direction bonus, Battle Lust bonus and Terrain mod: use the numbers from Table 2.

What you can’t just modify:
- Rune Slots and Number of Spells. Needless to say, but with less rune slots more rune combinations become unavailable and with more rune slots more become available. The number of spells is crucial for Magic Sword and Command Runes. You can’t use Magic Sword at all without an available Lv3 spell. As for command runes, since we’re calculating damage potential for 3 turns, it can be a huge difference if a character has let’s say either 1 or 2 Lv3 spells available. I used Lv37-40 characters, and all the calculations that include Magic Sword and/or Command Runes are based on the rune slots and number of available spells of these characters. Sure, you can use different numbers of rune slots and spells, but then you must change the formulae manually.
- The normal Ratio_mod and the Warrior Rune Ratio_mod are calculated automatically.

As mentioned above, the damage calculations take 3 turns into account. If you only do it for 1 turn, I think the results become blurred, because for example Kika can’t use her Lv3 spell every turn in a battle. However, unless you’re overleveled, you normally level up after 2 or 3 hits/kills, so I think 3 turns are fine to calculate with. Moreover, 3 turns is a full Magic Sword cycle.

Miscellaneous:
- The damage relations between the runes or rune combinations will change if you use modifiers, and you should use them to simulate realistic battle circumstances!
- A red cell means either that this rune (combo) is unavailable because of spell or rune slot restrictions or because there’s no command rune for that character; or that one rune of that combo doesn’t add any damage.

**************************************************** EDIT END ************************************************************


What do you think about the following test and its results?

Frederica, Lv39, 2 rune slots, 6/3/1
Atk 135, Mag 40

I’m adding the damage output of a fight that lasts at least 5 turns, so we can take the gale rune into account. Most fights last at least 5 turns, so that’s fair. By the time a character had 5 turns, the same character would’ve had 6 turns with a gale rune. That’s estimation, but it should be something like this. Note that Frederica has an above average Mag stat, so the Magic Sword will have above average effect. Let’s assume she levels up after 3 hits (everything restored), so she has Magic Sword activated all the time and can use the 2nd level Hawk Rune spell all the time (that’s actually perfectly realistic).

Magic Sword + Warrior Rune: (135+40+17)*5 = 960
Magic Sword + Wizard Rune: (135+40+18.5)*5 = 967.5
Magic Sword + Hawk Rune 2nd level spell (Magic Sword *2, Strong Arm*3): (135+40)*2 + (135*1.5)*3 = 958
Gale Rune + Warrior Rune: (135+17)*6 = 912
Gale Rune + Magic Sword: (135+40)*6 = 1050
Gale Rune + Hawk Rune 2nd level spell: (135*1.5)*6 = 1215
Warrior Rune + Hawk Rune 2nd level spell: ((135+17)*1.5)*5 = 1140
Hawk Rune 2nd level spell (alone or + Balance Rune or so): (135*1.5)*5 = 1012.5

There are 43 fighters (Lazlo does more damage as a mage, so I don’t treat him as a fighter). 18 of them have a 1st or 2nd weapon command rune spell that has a 1.5 damage multiplier or higher, so the Gale Rune + Command Rune combo will do the most damage. There’s only 1 exception: Wendel. Her Mag stat is so high that she’ll do slightly more damage using the Gale Rune + Magic Sword combo. Flare has the second highest fighter Mag stat and does slightly less damage using Gale and Magic Sword. So there are 17 fighters with the highest damage output using Gale and Command Rune: Seneca, Coop, Sigurd, Dario, Nalleo, Flare, Selma, Axel, Mitsuba, Kate, Nalkul, Champo, Frederica, Akaghi, Mizuki, Kika, and Yellow Mercenary.

I would test every fighter like this, but before I do that, I would like to ask you if there are mistakes or if I missed something. Any criticism?
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Last edited by Wolkendrache on Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:14 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby gildedtalon » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:45 pm

I don't understand the math formula. Where do you get it?
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Antimatzist » Sun Feb 08, 2015 5:04 am

gildedtalon wrote:I don't understand the math formula. Where do you get it?

It's (pure) damage output per turn multiplied by the number of turns.

Wouldn't Warrior output be altered by the DEF stat? The same is true with Wizard, but I already see that the Wizard combinations don't rank so high.

Wouldn't you need to keep in mind that with Magic Sword Lvl 3, you will definitely be standing on your terrain for the next three turns, raising your attack (and also defense). If we think of pure damage output, you will neglect the terrain effects. Of course there are beads, but I think it's too bothersome to equip all your characters before a fight.

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:08 am

Let me explain…

Warrior Rune: Do you mean the user’s defense? It depends on the PDF (not Def) of the user. Frederica has PDF 34, so her strength boosts by 17, and that means her base damage increases. Any base damage is altered by the defense stat of the enemy. Depending on the character base attack stat and the enemy defense stat ratio, the damage output of the Warrior Rune bonus might become higher than the strength boost alone. However, it is not guaranteed that the so called ratio mod will change by the use of the Warrior Rune, and in most cases the difference will be small. That’s why I’m ignoring it, but it’s true, you should keep in mind that the Warrior Rune has the potential of increasing the damage output by more than just the strength boost.

Magic Sword: When you use Magic Sword you’ll stand on your terrain 100%, that’s true. So theoretically you don’t stand on your terrain at all without Magic Sword, but practically you do at about 80-90% anyway. There are not only beads, there are mages or other fighters or support characters to change terrain, there is natural terrain, and many enemies change the terrain “for you”. There are also elemental mirrors, probably more likely to be obtained late game, but when we talk about Magic Sword, we talk about late game anyway. The test circumstances are supposed to be a realistic Tactics battle, not a theoretical situation where the test object alone fights a punching bag. I might contradict myself when I assume that the tested character has something to hit in any of the 5 or 6 turns. Magic Sword does benefit from that contradiction, because if you can’t find a target for 2 or 3 turns after activating it, it will be gone and you’ve probably not leveled up to get another Magic Sword attack. The same is true for the Gale Rune. An additional attack does only matter in this test if you hit something in that additional turn.

Wizard Rune: It only makes sense for fighters if they use Magic Sword along with it.

Weapon Command Rune 1.5 multiplier spell: To keep the formula as simple as possible, I’m ignoring all those damage multipliers that could come into effect no matter which runes you use. These are ratio mod, terrain mod, position mod and battle lust. However, since the Command Rune spells have a multiplier (1.5 in this case), they are actually weakened by ignoring other multipliers. So keep in mind that these Command Rune spells actually do even more damage the more multipliers come into effect.

Accuracy: Only the Command Rune attacks and the 1st strike of Magic Sword hit at 100%. All other attacks would actually miss once in a while, depending on skill stat and accuracy skills and enemies’ evasion stat and evasion skills. Because there are so many factors that make it difficult to calculate, I’m just ignoring that and treat all attacks as if they all hit. For the same reason I’ll also ignore critical hits, I really don’t know how often you land one, so it’s hard to calculate. Maybe ignoring both critical hits and possible misses creates a balance?

gildedtalon wrote:I don't understand the math formula. Where do you get it?

Maybe you should read the sticky thread about physical damage calculation, then it’s probably easier to understand.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Antimatzist » Sun Feb 08, 2015 12:12 pm

I mean: People who can equip stronger armors benefit more from Warrior Rune.

What I meant with standing on your terrain 100% of the time: Using other characters to lay terrain will decrease your overall efficiency. A Elemental Sword Lvl 3 user is a one man army that could act independantly which is a pro. As he's also standing on his terrain for 3 turns, he could potentially use turns in which he cannot attack with laying terrain for other people.

A con is, of course, that there are several Attack Runes whose attacks will affect several enemies at once, so the damage multiplier could vary from 1 to 6, depending on the attack (the 6 was just a guess, I don't know which spell has the highest AoE)

How much more damage do critical hits do? But it gets very specific at that point, a character with high skill will hit more often (because higher accuracy) and crit more often (or is crit% based on luck alone?), whereas a low skill character will suck at both.

I think there are several ways to look at it and calculate the best setup, but most of them would lead to the same result I guess. I'm a bit amazed that Gale Rune is so overpowered, but it makes kind of sense.

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:03 pm

Thanks, these are very good points.

First, about critical hit: it is based on both luck and skill, but don’t forget the critical hit skill. I’m not sure whether accuracy skills and certain equipment that raises accuracy also raise the chance for critical hit. And I absolutely don’t know how the final hit chance is calculated.

Warrior Rune and armor: No. The Warrior Rune is based on Pdf alone, not Def.

Gale Rune: Yes. Many people say “speed is king in Tactics”, and yet, the gale rune is still underrated or ignored. The best setup for a mage is elemental rune + magic boost + gale.

Magic Sword and Weapon Command Runes: The problem is you would fight very different depending on which runes you use, but for a comparison, I need similar circumstances. Whatever set of circumstances I choose, every rune will thereby have a drawback, so what I was trying to do is to create a balance of drawbacks. The drawback of Magic Sword is that I ignore the 100% terrain bonus and possible critical hits. The drawback of Command Runes is that I ignore the 100% hit chance (hoping this kind of equals out the crit hit drawback from above) and all the other damage multipliers (battle lust, terrain, Atk/Def ratio, position) which would further increase its damage output as long as the command rune damage multiplier is >1 (hoping this kind of equals out the terrain bonus issue).

I think it’s time for a test…
Character X, Atk 100, Mag 30, Magic Sword, 100% terrain bonus (1.35 multiplier), 3 turns: (100*1.35+30)*3 = 495
Character X, Atk 100, Mag 30, Strong Arm, no terrain bonus, 3 turns: (100*1.5)*3 = 450
Character X, Atk 100, Mag 30, Magic Sword, 100% terrain bonus (1.35), max battle lust (1.8 ), attack from behind (1.5), 3 turns: ((100*1.35*1.8*1.5)+30)*3 = 1184
Character X, Atk 100, Mag 30, Strong Arm, no terrain bonus, max battle lust (1.8 ), attack from behind (1.5), 3 turns: (100*1.5*1.8*1.5)*3 = 1215

I hope this shows what I mean by “balancing out drawbacks” I created by choosing a comparable set of circumstances. Actually the example above is not in favor of the Command Rune, because if you don’t use the Wizard Rune you will not have no terrain bonus. Without Magic Sword I still attack from my terrain at about 80%. How is that possible? Because I have more than one character, and the enemies mostly come in waves of only 4, so most of the times there are enough characters to change the terrain, sometimes the terrain is already there, and sometimes the enemy does the work for you. If the above Strong Arm user manages to attack from his/her terrain at only 30%, his her results would be 497 and 1343.

What you say about aoe command rune attacks is true, it’s another setback I apply to the command rune, because I’m treating them as if they always only hit 1 enemy. It’s hard to calculate with aoe, so just keep it in mind as another drawback towards the command runes. It seems the command runes suffer most from the test circumstances I chose. You’re welcome to come up with a formula that you think is more balanced (remember, balance is necessary for the sake of comparison).

EDIT: In my OP I was wrong about Wendel. I forgot that if she doesn't use/have Magic Sword she can instead make use of Beast King Claw (Lion Rune 3rd level spell). So Gale + Lion is the strongest combination for her.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby gildedtalon » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:59 pm

After learning Bullseye on this new game+, I got so many critical hits. Lalacle, Seneca, Flare. I don't even learn critical hit
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Antimatzist » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:29 pm

Warrior Rune and armor: No. The Warrior Rune is based on Pdf alone, not Def.

Ah, sorry, I thought the stats represent the other thing (i.e. Def is the stat, PDF is equipment+def).

I think the calculation should include all (or at leats most) possible confiurations. So:

Standing/not standing on your own terrain (which will determine if the terrain effect of Magic Sword will be big enough to be of use and to see how much better the Attack Runes become if you're already yon your terrain which simulates a real battle situation. We could also include standing on your opposite terrain just for fun - taht should not be of importance to us)

With/without Warrior/Wizard Rune

With/without Gale Rune

Battle Lust on S and not

We assume 100% accuracy and no critical hits.

We should also think of the order in which the runes are equipped. How many fighters can equip three runes? I think the order should be

Attack Rune/Elemental Sword > Gale > Wizard/Warrior

The first one is obvious I think, as we want to see the effect of that rune. Is there any fighter who cannot equip more than one rune?

These are MANY parameters that shoudl be checked, but I think they are all worthy to look on.

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Sun Feb 08, 2015 7:27 pm

Ok, but in any case there’s no connection between armor and Warrior Rune. People with better equipment do not benefit more from the Warrior Rune.
I don’t understand what you mean by order of runes equipped.
The characters I use for demonstration are all between Lv37 and Lv40, and they all have at least 2 rune slots. Kyril, Mizuki and Lazlo however have a fixed rune, so they have only 1 open rune slot yet. Luckily their fixed runes are useful.

Calculations for all configurations are a good idea, but it’s too much work, it would be hundreds of combinations for each fighter. Let me suggest the following: I will present the formulae for every character, but only at 1 particular level (e.g. Frederica Lv39), and the formulae will take into account the stats at that level, how many rune slots, and how many spells. If someone has 2 open rune slots, I will only present formulae of combinations of 2 runes. I will also take into account how many spells of which level someone has, because this decides what a character will do throughout the 5 or 6 turns.

You can then change the formulae at will. Like if you have a Lv30 Frederica, just replace the stats accordingly and change the formulae accordingly. Or if you want to apply damage multipliers that I ignored, just apply them. So let me explain you how to do that:

((Atk + PDf/2 - enemyDef) x ratio_mod x direction_mod x terrain_mod x battle_lust_mod x command_rune_multiplier) + Mag + MDf/2

This is the damage formula for 1 attack. For an understanding of the terms, see viewtopic.php?f=40&t=9537
+ PDf/2: only if Warrior Rune attached
x command_rune_multiplier: only if command rune spell is used, only relevant if multiplier ><1
+ Mag: only if Magic Sword used/activated
+ MDf/2: only if Magic Sword used/activated and Wizard Rune attached

Modification example: My Lv39 Frederica attacks a Def 40 enemy, she's on her terrain with Battle Lust S, Magic Sword activated and Wizard Rune
((135-40) x 1.3 x 1.35 x 1.8 ) + 40 + 18.5 = 359
Modification example 2: My Lv39 Frederica attacks a Def 40 enemy with Battle Lust S, Warrior Rune and Strong Arm
(135+17-40) x 1.3 x 1.8 x 1.5 = 393
Note that I will calculate 5 or 6 turns rather than just 1 (to take the gale rune into account), so some formulae will become more complicated when you do different actions throughout your 5 or 6 turns.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Antimatzist » Mon Feb 09, 2015 1:49 am

I don’t understand what you mean by order of runes equipped.

If a character can only equip two runes, we have to make sure which they equip ;) That's all. That way, there's not need for most characters to even look if Warrior will do something, if we assume that Gale is always more useful.

Will you just take your example stats for calculation? There's not stat grwoth guide for Tactics.

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:16 pm

EDIT: Alright, I changed my mind. I'm working on an excel document you can use to calculate damage. It covers the following runes and most of the 2 slot and 3 slot combinations: Elemental Sword Rune (Magic Sword), Wizard Rune (only in combo with Magic Sword), Warrior Rune, Gale Rune, and Weapon Command Rune.
You can change stats and apply various damage multipliers. There will be a second table with some kind of instructions.

But first I need some information, I hope you can help:
- The terrain bonus and malus are 35%, right?
- On which stats? Only Str and PDf? What about Mag and MDf, and the others? If it applies to Mag, does the Magic Sword Mag damage increase when you're on your terrain?
- Does the terrain bonus take the Warrior Rune effect into account?
- The Atk/Def ratio: is it based on Str and enemy PDf, or Atk and enemy Def?
- Direction bonus: Attacking from the back does physical damage*1.5; attacking from the front does physical damage*1?
- Are these Battle Lust damage multipliers correct: E = 1.1, D = 1.2, C = 1.4, B = 1.5, A = 1.63, S = 1.8?
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:31 am

-I read somewhere it's *1.5 and /1.5 (= *0.67)
- I'm sure MGC also raises, because mages become more powerful. Don't know about speed or anything.


Can't help you with the rest.

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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:56 am

Thanks. I did some quick testing…

-Terrain bonus: 1.35 works best as Strength multiplier, the one for a malus should then be 0.65. The numbers could as well be 1.33 and 0.67, but at least we’re close.
- The terrain bonus does increase Str (not Atk!) and Mag. I guess it increases PDf rather than Def, and it should also increase MDf. Maybe it even raises Skl and Eva, but I doubt it raises Spd.
- The terrain bonus does apply to the Magic Sword Mag bonus because your Mag stat is increased. Note that you get the terrain bonus from the spell only after you used it (after the first hit).
- The terrain bonus seems to take the Warrior Rune effect into account, so the formula fragment is: (Str + PDf/2) x 1.35 + weapon strength - enemy Def …
- I’m not sure about Atk/EnDef ratio, but after these brief tests I believe it’s based on Str and enemy PDf.

Only the Command Runes really confused me. I’ve tested Air Shot with Lalacle. She attacked different enemies, and her attack always did more damage than it should according to the formula. Whenever I ignore the enemy PDf in the formula (however applying the Str/EnPDf ratio as usual), then I came very close to the damage results. Does Air Shot ignore enemy Def?

However, it didn’t work that way when I used the Lion Rune with Akaghi. Depending on the enemy defense and Str/EnPDf ratio, some attacks did more and some did less damage than they should per formula. However, when I replaced the Str/EnPDf ratio by a fixed number of 1.05, then I got almost exactly the damage results. Strange.

This is the updated and full damage formula:
((((Str + PDf/2) x Terrain_bonus + Weapon_Atk + Atk_bonus_equipment - Enemy_PDf x Enemy_Terrain_bonus - Enemy_armor_bonus) x Str/EnPDf_ratio x Direction_bonus x Battle_Lust_bonus x Command_Rune_Multiplier) + Mag x Terrain_bonus + (MDf/2) x Terrain_bonus) x Turns

So the formula works well so far except for the weapon command rune spells. I need to test a little more.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Wolkendrache » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:02 pm

I was wrong about how speed is used to calculate the action bar, so the gale rune effect is smaller than what I assumed. I went to the Obel Ruins with Millay and Flare. They had a similar Spd, so I gave Millay the gale rune. I assumed that Millay would overlap Flare after 5 or 6 turns, but she overlapped her only after 12 turns. That’s why I decided to ignore the gale rune for the damage test. Now, should I calculate the damage for only 1 turn or for more? For how many turns and why?

I have an idea about how the action bar calculation works. Maybe I’ll open a new thread about this in case you guys are interested.
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Re: Rune Combinations for Fighters

Postby Antimatzist » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:07 pm

I'm definitely interested, that whole turn thing is already confusing enough. We need some clarification on this.


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