My Ideal Suikoden 6

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Please justify all speculations with reasons why you think such an event could happen.
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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Tue Nov 19, 2013 2:48 am

Speaking of weddings and romance...

I have been trying to force myself to play S5 (my least favorite so far... hence why I haven't completed it yet) and one thing that really bugs me is how often they throw women and romance in your face. Let me explain.

In S1 there really was nobody making comments except for Ted at the beginning and Kasumi's obvious crush. But it always felt like if you didn't want the character to always be oogling women, or not interested in Kasumi, or gay, or whatever that it was perfectly fine and wouldn't necessarily be "wrong".

S2 had Eilie and her crush... but like Kasumi it was never forced on you. You had dialogue choices where you COULD be a womanizer in a way but you never had to. And the only comment made to you was from Viktor asking how he managed to travel with attractive women. Again... letting you make the protagonist function however you wanted.

S3 was different in that the protagonists had actual defined personalities but Hugo and Geddoe were very much independent from any forced romance. Chris was different in that all her knights had a thing for her and were quite open about it. But if you wanted to you could ignore it and more importantly put them in their place. Even if I am slightly upset that she couldn't have a stronger negative reaction to her subordinates disrespecting her so openly while on duty. Nash felt different because he wasn't under her command. But you could still define Thomas, Hugo, Geddoe, and Chris however you wanted to. Not interested, too focused on the war, interested but hasn't been expressed, gay, etc. Though to a lesser extent because they had actual personalities.

S4 had even less than S1 and it was completely absent to my memory.

But then S5... where your sister and aunt accuse and (in sialeeds case desired) you to peep at them bathing, kyle constantly bugging you about being with this woman or that woman, or making gross comments like "breaking in" the Barows girl and needing to see Jeane as a rite to "being a man." As if not being a scumbag makes you less of a man. Then with the barows trying to hook you up with their daughter (which to be fair you can dismiss) to the fortune telling person talking about you being with women when asked about love... to me it really irritated me. I suppose some of these things on their own would be fine... but I felt like I was getting bashed over the head with it. If you are going to make a silent protagonist.... then don't do things like that which forces us to define the character in a way we don't want to. If this was like S3 though where the protagonists had set personalities then I would have no objections. I just hate it... the purpose of a silent protagonist is so that you can define them.


Side note: I really disliked how in S5... it not only suggested terrible things to women like peeping in on them or constantly objectifying them... but actually encourages you to do so! Even Sheena who is a womanizer didn't seem as bad as Kyle forcing you to be like him and go along with his antics. And many more characters in the game were very open about crushes or being attracted to someone... etc. That had always occurred in Suikoden but never to this extreme. I much prefer the old ways of S1-S4 where that wasn't an issue. I don't think this was an issue in Tierkreis either though. So hopefully it was a one time issue for me with the series and won't happen again.

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Jocky
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby Jocky » Tue Nov 19, 2013 3:43 pm

In my opinion I don't mind a bit of harmless womanising, like Sheena used 2 do. Or even 2 the extent of having Richmond's last investigation of Jeane be just a shaking & rumbling screen with the word, "Sorry!" :lol: But you're right Kyle was a bit OTT. How could someone like him have become a Queens Guard member when all he did was talk about the chasing of or the spying on of women like Sialeeds, and even your sis at 1 point I think!! As you said if you have a game with a silent protagonist then he is defined by his actions rather than his words and being led astray like that changes your prospective of him. You have to have less moral ambiguity with someone silent than you do with someone that can talk back and hold their own. Kyle's antics would have been fine if the prince had a voice and made it clear that his antics were over the top, but the main question I suppose is, what is better, A silent protagonist or not?!

Shasarazawoowoo
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby Shasarazawoowoo » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:38 pm

Kyle is a common RPG archetype. He didn't bug me, since he's basically, Sheena (and not as OTT as Gavaya). He's in a Queendom working around and for some hot women. I wasn't surprised ONE of them Knights would be horny. He really makes me think of a toned-down Kyle from Lunar, or even Ronfar... hormone-driven, but able to kick ass in battle and get the job done when needed. Kyle's actions are Kyle's. Sialeeds really just likes to tease people, family included, we know that.

I mean, hi, it takes place in a Queendom, like I said. Not to mention, you ARE royalty. Succession, children, marriage, women, expectations, even incestuous undertones - these are commonplace tropes in fictional royalty (and even possibly real life, in the rare places such things still count). It would've felt unnatural to leave them out just because some fans would whine.

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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Tue Nov 19, 2013 9:48 pm

Shasarazawoowoo wrote:Kyle is a common RPG archetype. He didn't bug me, since he's basically, Sheena (and not as OTT as Gavaya). He's in a Queendom working around and for some hot women. I wasn't surprised ONE of them Knights would be horny. He really makes me think of a toned-down Kyle from Lunar, or even Ronfar... hormone-driven, but able to kick ass in battle and get the job done when needed. Kyle's actions are Kyle's. Sialeeds really just likes to tease people, family included, we know that.

I mean, hi, it takes place in a Queendom, like I said. Not to mention, you ARE royalty. Succession, children, marriage, women, expectations, even incestuous undertones - these are commonplace tropes in fictional royalty (and even possibly real life, in the rare places such things still count). It would've felt unnatural to leave them out just because some fans would whine.


The thing is that Sheena was a womanizer but he never forced you to participate in his womanizing. He never made you go along to stare at Jeane or any hot girl he was going after. His actions were his own. Kyle however, went beyond being a womanizer to trying to make the player partake in his womanizing. I didn't appreciate that.

And yes Sialeeds likes to tease people... that that combined with the marriages, combined with people making the brother/sister relationship of Frey and Lym totally awkward, combined with Kyle, etc. etc. was too much. A little bit of each element works fine on their own... but to me it was too much at once.

And yes, being royalty does bring along certain issues along with it like arranged marriages. I'm perfectly okay with that. But you can't have that along with everything else. And what royalty allows its knights to openly harass not only their fellow female knights and citizens while on duty representing the Queendom... but harassing the royal line themselves! If we are really going to try to bring in realistic elements like arranged marriages then I should be able to scold and put Kyle in his place for his obvious lack of respect to his superiors and his peers.

Side note: I find it extremely odd that despite the fact that this game takes place in a queendom... it has the worse objectification and harassment of women out of all the Suikoden games.

Shasarazawoowoo
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby Shasarazawoowoo » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:35 pm

Man, you're really sensitive. Maybe video games aren't for you.

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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Tue Nov 19, 2013 10:40 pm

Shasarazawoowoo wrote:Man, you're really sensitive. Maybe video games aren't for you.

Or I just have an opinion about something? You can disagree and that's fine you know. You don't need to start making accusations and rude comments because we disagree.

And I'm no moderator or anything but... if you aren't going to post something that contributes to the discussion then please just don't post. There's no need to start making comments about people. Did you really need to make that post? Did it enhance the discussion or help make a point? Not really. So why waste your time making it?

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Jocky
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby Jocky » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:18 am

At the end of the day a little light-hearted skirt-chasing is meant to be a bit of fun, especially in something like a computer game where you can get away with a LOT more than you could in real life. Yeah Sheena is a womanizer, Kyle is definitely a womanizer, but Shas has a point about Gavaya. If anyone deserves the title of biggest perv in SV then it's him!! Every sentence that came outta his mouth was about objectifying 1 woman or another, or deciding which 1 he was gonna ask to marry next. I think some of the female characters, when talked to in the castle, even mention that he had proposed to them. In every piece of dialogue that he had he was talking about women, hell even Oboro's investigations are full of his pervy-ness:

Gavaya Investigation 1
Gavaya is a fighter from Armes. But he apparently doesn't care at all about his homeland anymore. He travels from country to country now, looking for somebody to marry. (Possibly not shady but definitely desperate!!)
Hazuki Investigation 3
Over the course of her travels, she met Nikea and Gavaya. When she first met Gavaya, he was so persistent in his marriage proposals that she actually drew her sword on him. (Total harassment, verging on being a borderline rapist!!)
Lorelai investigation 3
I've seen Gavaya follow Lorelai, Hazuki, and Norma around. They're all very pretty girls, so I guess I can understand how he feels, but still... (MAJOR creepy stalker material!!)
And even poor Miroon the beaver gets it!!
Miroon investigation 3
When Gavaya tried to peek into the women's bath, I hear she sent him to the infirmary with a single blow. I hesitate to say this, but I think she might actually be super-strong... (Well this 1 says it all, doesn't it.......Narcissistic Homicidal Sociopath!! Fact!!)

Kyle was a typical pretty boy player in my eyes, and I don't think he ever crossed any major lines of respectability. And as for Sialeeds, she gave as good as she got. If anyone should be criticized for their behavior in SV it's Gavaya not Kyle!!

(*additional) And as for Konami's choice of hair color and clothing for Gavaya, this is very much based on what a stereotypical Scotsman is supposed to be like. I for 1, being a proud Scotsman, take this as BLATANT RACISM!! I mean he looks nothing LIKE a true Scotsman for god's sake!!
Image
Image
Holy S#@T........................................
He could be my long lost twin..........................
I may have lost that last argument...............................
LOLOLOLOL :lol:

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ItsDaveyJ
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby ItsDaveyJ » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:36 pm

I don't want to start this up again but I do think that there needs to be a distinction made:

Gavaya is represented as a fool. Kyle is represented as more of a hero. Anyways, personally I think S5 went too far with too many people hitting on each other. Just my personal opinion. Skirt-chasing can be funny and add to the game... but when too many people are doing it... it loses its sense of humor.

darkknightkv
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby darkknightkv » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:13 pm

I have no clue what you possibly mean :lol: ....The only people who are "Skirt chasing" are...

Kyle, Wilhelm, Roy, Gavaya, and Euram...Possibly Godwin if you want to count him.

I mean if you toss in women...Well you got Subala, Marina, Lelei, Urda, Hazuki, and Nifsara

Plus you kinda have to toss in whatever the heck Rahal has going on...

Crap...what is wrong with this game!

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Jocky
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby Jocky » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:10 pm

:lol:
Yeah there must've been a new member of the dialogue team that decided that in order for everyone to seem normal then they should be hitting on each other ALL the time!! He was the geeky otaku in the corner with the halitosis and acne that smelled of spot cream and dandruff shampoo that seemed to spend a little to much time in the bathroom................................lol
:lol:

Heptade
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby Heptade » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:05 am

Hating on a game because it acknowledges that humans are sexual beings? Weird!

Kyle is a Queen's Knight. That alone probably means he can get away with his womanizing much easier than the average knave. Sad but true. Just because it's a video game, it doesn't mean it's some utopia where everyone is treated equally.

Getting back on topic, Nagarea would be a nice setting for the next game, I guess. Harmonia would be good too, but I don't want to see it before the very last game of the series. Zelant would be my second choice.

Nagarea was briefly mentioned in SV, but they didn't get too much into details, so they could very well create an original culture (I loved what they did with Falena in SV: taking some country only mentioned in a few throwaway lines, and creating such a rich setting out of that. Well thay did pretty much the same thing with every Suikoden game after the first one, but SV achieved a level of depth rarely witnessed in video games.), and have religion play an important role in the plot, which could be interesting. Since it's close to Falena, S5 characters could return, though much older.

I'd like it to happen post-Suikoden III in the timeline, with 50-something Queen Lymsleia having a cameo at some point, with badass Queen's Knights Toma and Miakis. Resolve the Nether Gate plot (though the suggested timeline might make that a bit more complicated). And since I don't want ALL mysteries being only resoved in the final game, why not introduce Hikusaak? He hasn't been seen in centuries in Harmonia. He could be pretty much anywhere in the world. I don't want him to be merely a villain though (he deserves complex motivations), but I'd keep his intentions mostly a mystery until a later installment.

And bring back Zerase, she's now part of the series' mythology.

Pokerface
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby Pokerface » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:07 am

I am playing Suikoden 3 at the moment, which is the latest point in the timeline. I'd like a Suikoden Game with a Story about Scum and Villany, which means: Bandits, Smugglers, Thieves, Wizards gone rogue, dishonored Knights turned Mercenaries. The Locations should be Zexen, Grasslands, Tinto, Part of Harmonia, Hallec's Home Country, Parts of the Island Nations Federation and Nirva Island. I'd like Zexen to be the main Antagonist here.... I don't know... something like the Election of a new Governeur which turns everything into Chaos. Corruption, Greed for Profit, Political Intrigues etc.

- First main Protagonist: Geddoe and the Gang with Aila as a full fledged Member

Geddoe and the Gang are brilliantly written Charakters and they simply deserve more. They are flawed with their own dark pasts and backstories which need to be revealed.

- Second main Protagonist: Duke and the Gang (Duke needs 2 more people to complete his group)

Duke is an insolent and arrogant Prick, but he and his gang also deserves a well written story of their own.... and besides, I'm a sucker for a good redemption story when it comes to Duke.

- Third main Protagonist: Chris and her Knights soon to be screwed over and turned Mercenaries (Louis is a grown up man)

I'd like to see Chris and her Knights to be framed for a crime they never commited, which forces them to go dark and turn renegade. Ah... I smell some good story there.

- Fourth Main Protagonist: Chief Hugo of Karaya.

Hugo has a lot to do since Zexen is running rampant and marching into the Grasslands again.

Now since we are talking about Scum and Villany, here are some Charakters I'd like to make a Return:

Gilbert, Anji, Leonardo, Kanak, Killey, Victor (if still alive),Flik, Raven, Oboro + Crew, Kage, Fuma, Watari, Ayame, Gijimu, Koyu, Lo Wen, Albert Silverberg as a Strategist, Sarah (we know she is still alive), Pesmerga, Yuber, then our favourite Mascotts Jeane + Viki, George Prime (if still alive), Wilhelm, Mueller, Richard and some more.

I'd also like to travel by Ship like we did in Suikoden 4, fighting ocean creatures, hunting for treasures in hidden Caves, discovering uncharted islands and other locations etc.

Just an idea...

Ah well... one is allowed to dream hm..?
Mess with the best, die like the rest!
http://www.suikoden3.de

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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby wataru14 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:12 pm

If Louis is grown up, it would have to be around 10 years after S3. Wilhelm and Oboro would be in their 80s! Even Gijimu, Anji's crew, and Viktor would be in their 60s. It might be cool to see a band of retired bandits and pirates reuniting for one last hurrah. Or to see an ancient Oboro as the secret head of a vast intelligence network. But Wilhelm isn't going to be fighting or womanizing at 82 years old.

Pokerface
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Re: My Ideal Suikoden 6

Postby Pokerface » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:22 pm

Wilhelm that old? Damn... then I did not kept this point in mind, but you get my point, right? Even if some people are in their 60s, as support Charakters they would do a good job I think. Imagine these people sitting in the Tavern, drinking and bragging about their deeds in the past :P

A story about scum and villany... that would be awesome...
Mess with the best, die like the rest!

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