badder guys

A place to post news and also give your ideas about the future of the Suikoden series.
Please justify all speculations with reasons why you think such an event could happen.
VinceValentine
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Post by VinceValentine »

I have no idea why you'd give Graham Cray credit for doing what he did, all he wanted was the Rune of Punishment back, so he started a war to lure Lazlo to him and i thought Cray was kinda lame for a villian. I liked Troy though.

About Luc, he really wasnt a bad guy at all to be honest, he just hated Holy Harmonia, Leknaat, and because he was created to just be a "bearer" for the True Wind Rune. (which was really just using him to "hold" the True rune.) (if you played his chapters you'll be able to figure it out.) so he wanted to destroy the 5 Elemental True runes to save people, but did it the wrong way but to him, it was like his life's goal, his mission, and he didn't let anyone get in his way... even if it meant taking lives and innocent lives, it was all for the good of the future in his mind.

Also, Marscal didn't really "strike" me as a truely evil person, he was a power maniac, yes, but deep down he was a pretty good person (heck, at the end before the final battle he even says himself he doesnt wan't to destroy Sol Falena and the country) he wanted to make Falena prosperous and peaceful but was doing it in a wrongful manner which caused the Prince to rebel against him the way he did, though, he does have that Hitler look and feel about him. I think Dolph was the real truely evil one.
Leebot

Post by Leebot »

VinceValentine wrote:I have no idea why you'd give Graham Cray credit for doing what he did, all he wanted was the Rune of Punishment back, so he started a war to lure Lazlo to him and i thought Cray was kinda lame for a villian. I liked Troy though.
You have to be able to sympathize with him as a parent who lost his son, and then sees a potential way to get him to "live" again (in the twisted way he sees the world; doubtful the Rune of Punishment actually stores souls like the Soul Eater). Parents who've lost their children can get really desperate to bring them back, and can lose a fair bit of sanity in the process. That's why I can sympathize with him in that respect, at the least, though it doesn't take away from the fact that what he did was selfish and evil.
VinceValentine
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Location: Magical Land

Post by VinceValentine »

I know, i agree, i mean i do understand and sympathize a little but only a "little", honestly you can tell he didn't have much sanity by just looking at his portrait when the first cutscene with him comes, but yeah i know he wanted to be closer to his child, i think thats the main reason why he wanted the rune back but i don't think starting a war against the Island Nations and killing a ton of people was a good way of dealing with things, however he is insane so maybe he didn't care about any of those people and just cared about himself, so yeah he was self centered and twisted, that'd be the best way to decribe him.
soonket
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Post by soonket »

lol... self centered and twisted... almost every villain possess that personality i suppose?? hahaha....

okay.. my opinion for badder guys is the they should be killing peoples and destroying cities without any good reason... just for his bloodlust... thats the trait a BAD GUY SHOULD HAVE !! woo hooo.. lmao
Yuber: I look better in black armor and you know it! Why do you make me look like Michael Jackson instead ?!
jonathan_priest
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Re:

Post by jonathan_priest »

Rezard wrote: About LordLake, it was protected by the beaver's dam at the time, so the only casualties would be mitlitary and not civilian. In a war, you are allowed to kill an enemy, but you can't kill civilians.
A lot of the problems with your reasoning here is the difference in philosophy. Leon Silverburg would have crushed all the enemies just to end the war quicker. However, what you need to recognize in this war is that the action to spare the lives of the soldiers was more a public relations act than anything else.

The Godwin's had already declared themselves leaders of the country, thus by destroying soldiers who were forced and threatened into enlisting, you would have justified all the negative aspects the Godwin's were saying about the Prince's army. Those men weren't soldiers because they wanted to be, they were forced into action. When the time came to pick a side, who do you think those men would have sided with? More than likely, they would willingly throw down their weapons and surrender to the Prince if it actually came to it later in the war. Hence why I said this was a public relations act.
"It doesn't matter if the glass is half empty or half full...what matters is the glass."
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Red rune
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Re:

Post by Red rune »

Leebot wrote:
VinceValentine wrote:I have no idea why you'd give Graham Cray credit for doing what he did, all he wanted was the Rune of Punishment back, so he started a war to lure Lazlo to him and i thought Cray was kinda lame for a villian. I liked Troy though.
You have to be able to sympathize with him as a parent who lost his son, and then sees a potential way to get him to "live" again (in the twisted way he sees the world; doubtful the Rune of Punishment actually stores souls like the Soul Eater). Parents who've lost their children can get really desperate to bring them back, and can lose a fair bit of sanity in the process. That's why I can sympathize with him in that respect, at the least, though it doesn't take away from the fact that what he did was selfish and evil.
Where do you get the cutscene where Graham Cray's son is holding the true rune?( Or something like that explaining how he had the rune), because if you just got it from suikosource then nevermind...


For my opinioun on badder guys i would like them to be badass and meanicing( like Yuber :wink: ) but i dont want them to be cowardly( also like Yuber) His motive for fighting against the Hero would be revenge.

ORR... The villian would be like Jowy, fighting due to the runes bounding his fate with highland. and is protecting an inoccent person( Jowy protecting Pilkia) but would fight the hero to restore their honour
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Rezard
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Re: Re:

Post by Rezard »

jonathan_priest wrote: A lot of the problems with your reasoning here is the difference in philosophy. Leon Silverburg would have crushed all the enemies just to end the war quicker. However, what you need to recognize in this war is that the action to spare the lives of the soldiers was more a public relations act than anything else.
That´s what rune of illusion said way back, it makes sense, but I still don't buy it completely, I think it would be military more effective to weaken your enemy, rather than being politic. It´s just my opinion.
jonathan_priest wrote:The Godwin's had already declared themselves leaders of the country, thus by destroying soldiers who were forced and threatened into enlisting, you would have justified all the negative aspects the Godwin's were saying about the Prince's army. Those men weren't soldiers because they wanted to be, they were forced into action. When the time came to pick a side, who do you think those men would have sided with? More than likely, they would willingly throw down their weapons and surrender to the Prince if it actually came to it later in the war. Hence why I said this was a public relations act.
You know, in most countries in the world, it is very common to force soldiers to enlist on special situations (total war), it is usually a crime not to go when you are called. When you have a big war where you need lots of soldiers, you can't depend on a few patriots to do the job, everybody needs to go. People usually won't put themselves in danger willingly. I wont even comment on how it was in ancient times.

Anyway, being forced in war doesn't mean you will betray your country/faction on the first opportunity. If America forced you to go to Iraq, would you betray your country on your first opportunity?
jonathan_priest
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Re: Re:

Post by jonathan_priest »


You know, in most countries in the world, it is very common to force soldiers to enlist on special situations (total war), it is usually a crime not to go when you are called. When you have a big war where you need lots of soldiers, you can't depend on a few patriots to do the job, everybody needs to go. People usually won't put themselves in danger willingly. I wont even comment on how it was in ancient times.

Anyway, being forced in war doesn't mean you will betray your country/faction on the first opportunity. If America forced you to go to Iraq, would you betray your country on your first opportunity?
Of course I wouldn't betray America rather than go to Iraq, but the difference is, that's fighting a foreign power. In Suiko V, you were fighting a civil war in which you would have been responsible for killing your own citizens.

Essentially what it would have come down to was who would the citizens eventually have sided with? The Prince who was trying to save them from the corrupt Godwins? Or the Godwins who burned their own town to distact the army while they escaped. Doraat is the perfect example of this. They trusted the Godwins, but after a number of them were killed after Childerich retook the city, they stormed the gates when the Prince came.

Sparing soldiers forced to fight in a war they didn't believe in was just another way to get the backing of the people is all. Just my opinion.
"It doesn't matter if the glass is half empty or half full...what matters is the glass."
Pokerface
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Re: badder guys

Post by Pokerface »

I wish there were more bad guys like Gizel and Marscal Godwin. Intelligent, charismatic always with a second strategy in mind. I would like to see a mix between Gizel Godwin and Luca Blight. but they also should have their weaknesses. What I'm trying to say is that Konami should give us the possibility to know the true reasons for becoming a bad guy.

Pokerface
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KvChaos
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Re: badder guys

Post by KvChaos »

To me, badder guys (besides Luca) identity should be a mystery.
He should be someone close to you, knowing your every moves, and attempting to kill everyone who's close & good to you. Jealousy is the key word, and you can be sure the players will hate this man! 8)

P.S. The side effect is that players will come to hate the main character for been so stupid.. lol
Tsubaki
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Re: badder guys

Post by Tsubaki »

Hells yeah! I agree dude, Luca kicked ass an was hard as fxxx it took a entire army to beat him an that was an ambush! we need another evil sob thed burn down villages kill women an kids an make them pretend to be pigs an then kill them anyway yet with a story an a reason for bein evil. what i loved about s2 was.... everthing lol. my suikoden violence topic was about this back in the day but they jus dint seem ta get me...
When its all said and done im feeling like the milkmans son!
KFCrispy
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Re: badder guys

Post by KFCrispy »

i'm sorry but "jealousy" is a retarded reason to be a villain in any story, especially considering that the "jealous" villain always becomes more powerful than the person they are jealous of, so there is nothing to actually be jealous of.......

carefully crafting a well-liked villain who seems logical is difficult and the Suikoden series has done a pretty good job in writing their characters. completely insane and powerful random people who want to destroy the world suddenly don't belong in the Suikoden series. go play your generic RPG and fighting games for such a story.
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