badder guys

[Jodan]

i dont know about you but i think in the last couple of games the fight between good and evil has been softend the good guys are all good and the bad guys are misunderstood i never got the feeling that they were the antithesis of the hero. it kinda just felt that cray and jizel were poor excuses for the hero to act.
heck in 4 the good guys did the most mass slaughter
in 5 the bad guys were just corrupt polititions. i get enough of those at home or when i turn the tv on cause of the sping election.

what i want is a blood thirsty hitleresque charater who commits genocide for fun (like luc only less emo) someone you can really hate. and that when you beet him at the end you really feel a sense of justice

[Oppenheimer]

The good guys are all good? Have you met Sialeeds? In fact most of the people on your team are criminals. The criminal element was increased for Suikoden V, moreso than previous Suikodens.

I think your evil killer character would be boring. It's good that they're creating characters with depth.

[LadyRhia]

what i want is a blood thirsty hitleresque charater who commits genocide for fun (like luc only less emo) someone you can really hate. and that when you beet him at the end you really feel a sense of justice

But the Godwins were Hitleristic (in their ways) and Luc wasn't trying to destroy a continent for fun....

[Raww Le Klueze]

i dont know about you but i think in the last couple of games the fight between good and evil

Your problem seems to stem from a huge misunderstanding of the series. Suikoden has never been about good vs evil, Suikoden has always been a politically driven series of plot events. And frankly, thank god for that.

No one has been evil for the sake of being evil since Luca Blight and he wasn't playing with a full deck to begin with.

If you're looking for good vs evil you're playing the wrong series. For a generic good vs evil plot Final Fantasy will probably suit your needs more.

[Raijin]

I hated Gizel throughout out the game. I will never forget what he did... *sob* Having a reason for what he did doesn't justify it.

[kharaa]

yes i think you forgot exactly what gizel was trying to do..


remember he wanted to commit genocide, of the dwarves elves and beavers? because he wanted Falena for Falenans?

[Rezard]

I don't understand what Gizel was doing. How killing the demi-humans (who would make excelent builders, diggers, etc...) hepls Falena in any way?

About the heros... I disagree, they are too nice. In Suikoden V it was ridiculous, remeber what they said before the attack on fort hatred: "Let's not kill those poor enemy soliders. They are also from Falena".

Of course they are from Falena, it´s a damn civil war!!!! Kill all the enemies, finish the war sooner. What are they? Jesus? Buda? Not to mention they avoiding to attack the enemy at their best to avoid throwing oil at the river. What is that? Greenpeace? In an ancient country? We, modern people, do much worse every day.

[Iku]

because he thought by doing so he could unify the falenans! so he was blood thirsty for the hell of it!

[Oppenheimer]

I don't understand what Gizel was doing. How killing the demi-humans (who would make excelent builders, diggers, etc...) hepls Falena in any way?

He was purifying the land. . . try reading some WWII history.

You sound like you're on the Arshtat Sun Rune band wagon. You would have wiped out LordLake for sure after all they were being disloyal and "it's a civil war". . .

I guess you didn't learn anything from the social undertones of tyrany the game was trying to critique.

[Rezard]

He was purifying the land. . . try reading some WWII history.

I know that, I am just saying that I can't understand what Gizel did as something "useful", but something that was just evil. And I feel the same about the WWII.

You sound like you're on the Arshtat Sun Rune band wagon. You would have wiped out LordLake for sure after all they were being disloyal and "it's a civil war". . .

I guess you didn't learn anything from the social undertones of tyrany the game was trying to critique.

You really misundestand me. In the other topic I didn't defend the use of the sun rune, only the punishiment of Belcoot and Marina. I am not a Nazi, I defend the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It is just that I am lawyer and, to me, it was just clear there was a crime there.

About LordLake, it was protected by the beaver's dam at the time, so the only casualties would be mitlitary and not civilian. In a war, you are allowed to kill an enemy, but you can't kill civilians.

[WaterMoon]

However, any good soldier knows that you want to inflict the minimum amount of damage necessary to stop enemy forces so as to make the peace treaty go easier as those in power afterwards and the civilian members of that country will be less hostile towards you after the fact. It's one of the reasons that the US goes in and rebuilds what we destroy in wars. That's about all we're doing left in Iraq anymore, is rebuilding what we destroyed in the fighting.

[Rezard]

According to Sun Tzu, the minimal damage you must inflict is agaisnt the country, not the enemy forces.

In a war, you must capture your enemy, but, if that's not possible, you must inflict as much damage as you can. So later you have the advantage when asking for surrender.

A soldier who runs lives to fight another day. Why do you think in acient times some armies had specialized units in pursuing fleeing enemies? (like the greek cavalary)

Back on topic, I wish the heroes would not be so merciful to the enemies, mainly when involving a chance to get the upper hand. Of course, there's no need to slaughter villages (like in Tactics Ogre). About villains, I wouldn't mind some barbarian villain for change.

[Rune of Illusion]

I don't understand what Gizel was doing. How killing the demi-humans (who would make excelent builders, diggers, etc...) hepls Falena in any way?

About the heros... I disagree, they are too nice. In Suikoden V it was ridiculous, remeber what they said before the attack on fort hatred: "Let's not kill those poor enemy soliders. They are also from Falena".

Of course they are from Falena, it´s a damn civil war!!!! Kill all the enemies, finish the war sooner. What are they? Jesus? Buda? Not to mention they avoiding to attack the enemy at their best to avoid throwing oil at the river. What is that? Greenpeace? In an ancient country? We, modern people, do much worse every day.

You missed the hidden point of that. For most of the war Lucretia is, in a way,is running a popularity contest. The Godwins has told the people and all those who are important that Freyjadour is leading a rebellion against the Queen his sister. Nobody, but those directly involved in the coup new the truth. This includes the Godwins, the Falenas', and all the knights. The Godwins painted Georg as the villain, themselves as the heroes, and the Prince as the disgruntled sibling trying to get what would never, under normal circumstances, belong to him. Because of this, Freyjadour has to work from the bottom up showing his pure intentions and eventually the truth.

[/b]

[Rezard]

You guys always have an explanation to almost everything.
Yes, Rune of Illusion, your explanation makes sense, but it wouldn't hurt for Lucretia explain those hided intents. From Lyon and the other characters saying: "yes, we mustn't hurt those poor enemy soldiers.", it is hinted the opposite, that they are showing mercy to an enemy.

Makes me wonder if konami really thought of that when they made the game. It always seemed to me that simply destroying fort hatred with the dawn rune was too easy and boring, so they decided to create a unnecessary army battle to heat things up.

Well, but the game is already made, so I believe we should pick the version that makes more sense and not the one that seems absurd.

[soonket]

i doubt konami have thought of that.. i think konami is just trying to show faroush's mercifulness and bla bla watsoever justice... lol..

btw rezard, good job for debating all the way! cool man hahahahha~